GWT: PL Matchweek 17

[robertmac43]

It's also clear the board has absolutely no vision. Seems to be no plan since firing Unai. Ljunberg has never coached at this high a level and it's evident. We really need a manager to come in here and at least make this team play with more structure or something. They literally look lost right now.

 

[Blender]

It's also clear the board has absolutely no vision. Seems to be no plan since firing Unai. Ljunberg has never coached at this high a level and it's evident. We really need a manager to come in here and at least make this team play with more structure or something. They literally look lost right now.

I don't think they even had a clear vision when Emery was there. What exactly is their identity even supposed to be now?

 

[robertmac43]

I don't think they even had a clear vision when Emery was there. What exactly is their identity even supposed to be now?

LOL true that!

Mid-table club and hope for some EL runs.... To stay mid table they got play pragmatic football and pass sideways as much as possible.... Seems to be the Arsenal of the past 2 months.

 

[S E P H]

Wenger was the best thing to ever happen to this club, he carried us to the top 4 with a very poor squad and no investment for a decade. Finishing in the top 4 with players like Bendtner, Chamakh, Djourou, Senderos, Gervinho, Andre Santos and Squillaci as regular starters is astonishing, Wenger is an absolute footballing visionary who always got the absolute best out of all his players. During his last 6 years, he overachieved considering the squad at his disposal. His fast paced, offensive system with passing triangles is something our squad would thrive under today. If anything, todays struggles prove how much Wenger carried us.

Most of our struggles right now is because of Emerys brainwashing on the players, the confidence is shattered as a result of him not allowing the players any freedom on the pitch, always looking to adjust to the opponent. We don't have much of a tactical base to rely on, because Emery had no tactical system. It takes time to implement a new one, Emery did fairly well last season because of Wengers system still being drilled into the players.

The main problem lies with Kroenke though.

You are 100% absolutely correct that Wenger is the best thing to happen for us, easily. However, just because he deserves a legacy and statue outside of the Emirates also doesn't mean there were dark chapters with him. I am sorry, but he stayed six years too long. I am also in agreement with you that his consistency to finish top 4 with super average squads is unbelievably impressive.

However, he was also responsible for the entire downfall at our club...

- The Invincibles squad was slowly torn apart due to Wenger's reluctance to sign older players to deals which would keep them a bit longer. Sure, there was a very decent chance of them declining, but the greatest squad ever assembled was eventually sold and replaced by the rubbish you mentioned above such as Djourou, Squillaci, Chamakh, Bendtner, Santos, and others.

- Champion's League results is another aspect which he was a failure in the second part of his career at Arsenal. He made the finals just once and though it was terrible luck to lose the way we did to Barca, one appearance in the finals is pretty pathetic considering the squad we had. Additionally, as I mentioned about the second half of his career at Arsenal had some of the worst CL upsets and matches against us. 10-2 on aggregate against Bayern Munich, beat by Barca in 08/09, beat by Barca in 09/10 (R16), beat by AC Milan in 10/11 (R16) , beat by Bayern (R16) 11/12, beat by Bayern 12/13 (R16), beat by Bayern 13/14 (R16), beat by effin' Monaco 14/15 (R16), beat by Barca 15/16 (R16), beat by Atletico 16/17 (QF), and didn't make it after that. Sure we got spanked around by Bayern's gold generation squad, but we kept drawing ****ing Bayern and Barcelona every year because we kept finishing second in group stages against pathetic opponents.

- His arrogance on the squad is probably the biggest, people can blame Kroenke for being cheap, but honestly Wenger was the real realise why we spent so little. He never spent a lot like ever, even during our gold generation team he kept finding hidden gems and eventually hit jackpots more often than not. However, when The Invincibles squad was slowly deconstructed and sold to the likes of everywhere they were replaced by Wenger's next generation of gems which you wrote above in Bendtner, Chamakh, Djourou, Senderos, Gervinho, Andre Santos, Squillaci, Arshavin, Diaby, Vermaelen, Sagna, Clichy, Gibbs, Walcott, van Persie, Fabregas, and Rosicky. Don't get me wrong there's some good players in there, but more trash than treasure.

He trusted his players too much and made him blind from the real issue at hand and that is they were simply not good enough. Not good enough and why we kept getting destroyed by the likes of 2nd place group stage, Bayern, and Barca every year on repeat. Insanity is the doing the same thing and expecting a different result...well, doesn't that explain the lack of success in the CL quite nicely? Considering how many times we played both teams, you'd think we could squeeze out one upset, but no and we got beat by the same weaknesses every year...send too many players forward, get beat on the counterattack (definition of insanity x2). His record against the top 6 in the last decade was also beyond terrible, getting wrecked consistently was just terrible to watch.

- In the end, he needed to leave. This team at the time needed a change in direction and fresh outlook because his tactics were behind the times. He's still a legend to me, but I am also not blind enough to see that he created the dark chapters of his footballing legacy by staying so long. It's Arsenal FC, not Arsene FC. No other manager in any major sport had the same job security as he had, it was insane if you think about it. Nothing changed for twenty years and when you're on the downside making terrible moves after another you eventually find yourself with the squad we have now.

Think about it, the worst players currently at Arsenal are ones that he bought under his regime such as Mustafi, Xhaka, Kolasinac, Ozil, Elneny, and perhaps Mkhi, but not going to say 100% because it seems he wanted Martial while Sven got his Auba/Mkhi partnership from Dortmund. Additionally, the youth academy was in absolutely dire shape during his final five seasons as well. Unbelievably bad and another wanker is Ivan Gazidis, hope he rots and never joins another football programme after he gets fired from AC Milan.

I understand the lads who say we should've never fired Arsene for the likes of Emery, Freddie, and what has happened to our club now. But I am not on that train; he needed to leave and this club needed a fresh outlook. Sometimes you miss with the likes of Emery, happens to every club, but I also think this current dark period is just a little blip in a bigger picture. The new manager will not produce the same terrible record that is bestowing the club currently with Ljungberg, we just have to wait until the new one gets hired.

We probably don't make the top 5 this year, should get demolished the further we go in the Europa, and comments of firing Emery without a replacement are warranted. However, not winning a game since like early November is more fluke than anything to me. Arsenal's squad is good enough to be able to beat teams like Standard Liege, Brighton, Soton, Norwich, and others. I don't think Kroenke is the problem, he pretty much gives funds and allows the club to function...he is very hands off owner. The problem though, is that him living in America reduces the ability to fully understand the front office and squad's problems and that he's definitely naive in how sports function in Europe. That doesn't mean he is the worst owner though.

 

[phisherman]

I don't think they even had a clear vision when Emery was there. What exactly is their identity even supposed to be now?

They were close to picking Arteta. Seems like they wanted a young manager, preferably with a history with Arsenal.

Emery came in and lied in his interview about attacking, pressing football and the board thought it would be good to have a transitional manager before risking going for a young one so they picked him. So now it seems like they are going for Arteta again but now instead of the risk having huge pressure to succeed Wenger he now has even bigger pressure to undo Emery's damage and get the team to be at a respectable level.

 

[AB13]

You are 100% absolutely correct that Wenger is the best thing to happen for us, easily. However, just because he deserves a legacy and statue outside of the Emirates also doesn't mean there were dark chapters with him. I am sorry, but he stayed six years too long. I am also in agreement with you that his consistency to finish top 4 with super average squads is unbelievably impressive.

However, he was also responsible for the entire downfall at our club...

- The Invincibles squad was slowly torn apart due to Wenger's reluctance to sign older players to deals which would keep them a bit longer. Sure, there was a very decent chance of them declining, but the greatest squad ever assembled was eventually sold and replaced by the rubbish you mentioned above such as Djourou, Squillaci, Chamakh, Bendtner, Santos, and others.

- Champion's League results is another aspect which he was a failure in the second part of his career at Arsenal. He made the finals just once and though it was terrible luck to lose the way we did to Barca, one appearance in the finals is pretty pathetic considering the squad we had. Additionally, as I mentioned about the second half of his career at Arsenal had some of the worst CL upsets and matches against us. 10-2 on aggregate against Bayern Munich, beat by Barca in 08/09, beat by Barca in 09/10 (R16), beat by AC Milan in 10/11 (R16) , beat by Bayern (R16) 11/12, beat by Bayern 12/13 (R16), beat by Bayern 13/14 (R16), beat by effin' Monaco 14/15 (R16), beat by Barca 15/16 (R16), beat by Atletico 16/17 (QF), and didn't make it after that. Sure we got spanked around by Bayern's gold generation squad, but we kept drawing ****ing Bayern and Barcelona every year because we kept finishing second in group stages against pathetic opponents.

- His arrogance on the squad is probably the biggest, people can blame Kroenke for being cheap, but honestly Wenger was the real realise why we spent so little. He never spent a lot like ever, even during our gold generation team he kept finding hidden gems and eventually hit jackpots more often than not. However, when The Invincibles squad was slowly deconstructed and sold to the likes of everywhere they were replaced by Wenger's next generation of gems which you wrote above in Bendtner, Chamakh, Djourou, Senderos, Gervinho, Andre Santos, Squillaci, Arshavin, Diaby, Vermaelen, Sagna, Clichy, Gibbs, Walcott, van Persie, Fabregas, and Rosicky. Don't get me wrong there's some good players in there, but more trash than treasure.

He trusted his players too much and made him blind from the real issue at hand and that is they were simply not good enough. Not good enough and why we kept getting destroyed by the likes of 2nd place group stage, Bayern, and Barca every year on repeat. Insanity is the doing the same thing and expecting a different result...well, doesn't that explain the lack of success in the CL quite nicely? Considering how many times we played both teams, you'd think we could squeeze out one upset, but no and we got beat by the same weaknesses every year...send too many players forward, get beat on the counterattack (definition of insanity x2). His record against the top 6 in the last decade was also beyond terrible, getting wrecked consistently was just terrible to watch.

- In the end, he needed to leave. This team at the time needed a change in direction and fresh outlook because his tactics were behind the times. He's still a legend to me, but I am also not blind enough to see that he created the dark chapters of his footballing legacy by staying so long. It's Arsenal FC, not Arsene FC. No other manager in any major sport had the same job security as he had, it was insane if you think about it. Nothing changed for twenty years and when you're on the downside making terrible moves after another you eventually find yourself with the squad we have now.

Think about it, the worst players currently at Arsenal are ones that he bought under his regime such as Mustafi, Xhaka, Kolasinac, Ozil, Elneny, and perhaps Mkhi, but not going to say 100% because it seems he wanted Martial while Sven got his Auba/Mkhi partnership from Dortmund. Additionally, the youth academy was in absolutely dire shape during his final five seasons as well. Unbelievably bad and another wanker is Ivan Gazidis, hope he rots and never joins another football programme after he gets fired from AC Milan.

I understand the lads who say we should've never fired Arsene for the likes of Emery, Freddie, and what has happened to our club now. But I am not on that train; he needed to leave and this club needed a fresh outlook. Sometimes you miss with the likes of Emery, happens to every club, but I also think this current dark period is just a little blip in a bigger picture. The new manager will not produce the same terrible record that is bestowing the club currently with Ljungberg, we just have to wait until the new one gets hired.

We probably don't make the top 5 this year, should get demolished the further we go in the Europa, and comments of firing Emery without a replacement are warranted. However, not winning a game since like early November is more fluke than anything to me. Arsenal's squad is good enough to be able to beat teams like Standard Liege, Brighton, Soton, Norwich, and others. I don't think Kroenke is the problem, he pretty much gives funds and allows the club to function...he is very hands off owner. The problem though, is that him living in America reduces the ability to fully understand the front office and squad's problems and that he's definitely naive in how sports function in Europe. That doesn't mean he is the worst owner though.

Wenger wasn't really responsible for the transfer business at all, it was David Dein ( before 2005) and Stan Kroenke ( after 2005) that are mostly responsible for that, but I agree he was a bit too stubborn at times. Kroenke never ever injected his own money into Arsenal, being the only owner to do so in the entirety of the 4 top divisions of England. As you can see from our "almost signed" list, Wenger wanted tons of players that Kroenke and the stadium move just wouldn't grant him. We have lived completely of our revenue, without any extra injection for years. When Kroenke took over, we where possibly the best club in the world, it is no coincidence he has overseen our entire decline. Kroenke hired Gazidis, and now Sanhelli, to buy marketable players, which is why we always buy attackers, instead of creating a balanced side.

The youth academy problem once again stems from the staff, in this case the youth academy manager, who was recently sacked.

Wenger wrote in his autobiography that he thought he had less and less control the longer he stayed at Arsenal, as we went from a club with 80 staff members to a club with 350, allowing Wenger very limited say in what the club did.

I fully agree that our squad is good enough to win most of our games and finish in the top 4. The real problem now is that we need to undo everything Emery taught the players, from backing off in the press, to not playing with intensity, to the constant sideways passing and inability to play through the middle. The players confidence is shattered as a result of constantly being told they need to adjust to their superior opponent.

 

[Live in the Now]

I fully agree that our squad is good enough to win most of our games and finish in the top 4.

That there are people who still think this is wild. Arsenal scores and prevents goals at the rate of a mid-table team. They're 12th in xG. The team unit is incapable of creating good chances at the level required for a top team. They are 11th in xGA. Nobody on the team is capable of defending at the rate of a top team.

Delusional is really the only word here. Arsenal has been grossly inept for the entire season. They were dominated by a team that currently has nine points. They failed to beat all three of the bottom teams. Their team has gotten worse in the process of buying the players they bought. Torreira has been overrun somewhat frequently in this league. The rest of their midfielders are only getting worse. Their defenders are also failing to improve, injured frequently this season, or never should have been bought by Arsenal in the first place. The hilarious part is that everyone said they weren't good enough to play for Arsenal in the first place.

What we have here is a team in flux and in major crisis, with fans who are so clouded as to what is wrong with the team that they have a hard time accepting how bad the team actually is. This enables the managers to not do anything in the transfer market and leave the team with the shit you have. Their two best players are frankly too good to be playing for a team at this level and will be asking for a move soon if they have an ambition. If they don't it would be more alarming as it shows they don't care. Judging from how they defend without the ball I think they don't give a shit.

If Arsenal is to be successful there will only be one or two of their current starters who remain in the first XI at the end. The rest should be binned. At no point ever will the extreme majority of these players play for a title challenging team. And I'm saying that they can do that, but the reality is that their current side sucks and they need to completely overhaul the squad. Any team with money can challenge if they address their squad properly, but this stuff with people in denial about how shit these players are, it's incredible. How many humblings do you have to watch these guys take before you admit they suck ass?

 

[Corto]

I fully agree that our squad is good enough to win most of our games and finish in the top 4.

I couldn't disagree more.

At least Man Utd, while almost as bad in many aspects, has the pace and the youth and the forwards to play quality counter-attacking football.
Arsenal doesn't even have that.

CBs are mediocre (though not as bad as they're made out to be), but the shape is horrid and the are getting destroyed by having to make decisions and risks they shouldn't be making. They're getting left out to dry basically the entire time.
All 3 City goals were shambolic defending - not from the CBs, but from the rest of the team.

Midfield is loaded with mediocre, uninventive players. Xhaka and Torreira aren't bad, but they're not "core to a top-4 team" good.
Ghendouzi is young to people overlook how average he is. And he is.

Fullbacks are offensively inept and defensively weak (outside of Kolasinac).

Özil seems spent and Lacazette seems to be too good to sit on the bench, but not good enough to get constant starts.

But worst of all... All these players are just "there". There doesn't seem to be any plan in identifying and bringing the right players, most of the buys look like "oh this player could be available, let's go".

Klopp's first season we (West Ham) were beating them. Pep's first season they never looked like winning anything.
But you could see the transfers made sense (though it's not hard to be Pep and spend like 150m on 4 fullbacks in one summer), you could see there's a plan in place...

Arsenal just seem lost.

To be clear, I think Utd are in the same boat. Just that they won vs Spurs and City and now the public opinion seems to have turned.
But they'll keep dropping points and the doubt will come back.

 

[Havre]

I do believe there is a bit of a 2+2=3 at Arsenal at the time being. Not sure if the squad is any worse than what for example Wolverhampton got, but unlike Arsenal Wolverhampton look like a proper team. It is well balanced and players are generally playing to their strengths - Arsenal are not.

The fight for 4th is wide open, but I don't believe that Arsenal got much of a shot at it. Chelsea, Spurs, Wolverhampton and Utd can all grab it. I think Spurs got the best squad among those teams. Wolverhampton is the best structured team. Chelsea got the most points (they can afford a couple of slip ups) and Utd potentially got a very potent starting lineup if they can get Pogba playing at his best.

 

[maclean]

I fully agree that our squad is good enough to win most of our games and finish in the top 4. The real problem now is that we need to undo everything Emery taught the players, from backing off in the press, to not playing with intensity, to the constant sideways passing and inability to play through the middle. The players confidence is shattered as a result of constantly being told they need to adjust to their superior opponent.

I mean, I feel like I remember these problems under Wenger as well. Not that I want to defend Emery but

 

[AB13]

That there are people who still think this is wild. Arsenal scores and prevents goals at the rate of a mid-table team. They're 12th in xG. The team unit is incapable of creating good chances at the level required for a top team. They are 11th in xGA. Nobody on the team is capable of defending at the rate of a top team.

Delusional is really the only word here. Arsenal has been grossly inept for the entire season. They were dominated by a team that currently has nine points. They failed to beat all three of the bottom teams. Their team has gotten worse in the process of buying the players they bought. Torreira has been overrun somewhat frequently in this league. The rest of their midfielders are only getting worse. Their defenders are also failing to improve, injured frequently this season, or never should have been bought by Arsenal in the first place. The hilarious part is that everyone said they weren't good enough to play for Arsenal in the first place.

What we have here is a team in flux and in major crisis, with fans who are so clouded as to what is wrong with the team that they have a hard time accepting how bad the team actually is. This enables the managers to not do anything in the transfer market and leave the team with the **** you have. Their two best players are frankly too good to be playing for a team at this level and will be asking for a move soon if they have an ambition. If they don't it would be more alarming as it shows they don't care. Judging from how they defend without the ball I think they don't give a ****.

If Arsenal is to be successful there will only be one or two of their current starters who remain in the first XI at the end. The rest should be binned. At no point ever will the extreme majority of these players play for a title challenging team. And I'm saying that they can do that, but the reality is that their current side sucks and they need to completely overhaul the squad. Any team with money can challenge if they address their squad properly, but this stuff with people in denial about how **** these players are, it's incredible. How many humblings do you have to watch these guys take before you admit they suck ass?

I couldn't disagree more.

At least Man Utd, while almost as bad in many aspects, has the pace and the youth and the forwards to play quality counter-attacking football.
Arsenal doesn't even have that.

CBs are mediocre (though not as bad as they're made out to be), but the shape is horrid and the are getting destroyed by having to make decisions and risks they shouldn't be making. They're getting left out to dry basically the entire time.
All 3 City goals were shambolic defending - not from the CBs, but from the rest of the team.

Midfield is loaded with mediocre, uninventive players. Xhaka and Torreira aren't bad, but they're not "core to a top-4 team" good.
Ghendouzi is young to people overlook how average he is. And he is.

Fullbacks are offensively inept and defensively weak (outside of Kolasinac).

Özil seems spent and Lacazette seems to be too good to sit on the bench, but not good enough to get constant starts.

But worst of all... All these players are just "there". There doesn't seem to be any plan in identifying and bringing the right players, most of the buys look like "oh this player could be available, let's go".

Klopp's first season we (West Ham) were beating them. Pep's first season they never looked like winning anything.
But you could see the transfers made sense (though it's not hard to be Pep and spend like 150m on 4 fullbacks in one summer), you could see there's a plan in place...

Arsenal just seem lost.

To be clear, I think Utd are in the same boat. Just that they won vs Spurs and City and now the public opinion seems to have turned.
But they'll keep dropping points and the doubt will come back.

The midfield is horrendously unbalanced and the CBS aren’t good enough, but other than that the players are all good. Coaching is the reason we have struggled so much, Unai Emery made sure this team backs off every time the opposition gets the ball because he wants us to invite pressure, we where not allowed to play through the middle under him, reling solely on crosses and cutbacks instead of playing to our strengths.

The fullback pairing of Bellerin and Tierney are offensively brilliant and defensively solid, but none of them have been fit for more than a few games during the full season. I sense a very clear plan to build a young core, with exiting young prospects in various positions being signed in every window for a couple of seasons now!

We have the pieces for fast paced, counter attacking football just like United with the speed and skill of Pepe, Martinelli, Aubameyang, Nelson and Saka. Emery just did not allow us to counter attack, but I have seen large improvements there since he left, despite Ljungberg not being a ”proper” coach.

There has been a lack of investment and a few of the players are not good enough, but the quality of the players is still good enough to beat most of the teams we have failed to beat this season. Unai Emery inherited a squad of international stars, destroyed the mentality of the players by not letting them play feely, telling them to fear the opponent. The lack of confidence, attacking will, fight and intensity is all due to Unai, and it might take years to reverse what Emery did to the players. The main issue might be that we have no tactical system to rely on, because Emery did not implement one. We don’t have a clear style of play, the attacking will has been drained out of the players just like Unai always has ( no coincidence Mbappé scored 13 goals in a season under him) and we are scared of the opponents.

Our squad was one point off the top 4 last season, and improved during the summer transfer window.

Do you really expect an interim coach who is not fully licensed and has never managed before, without a coaching staff to back him up, to turn around a mess created by one of the worst managers in the world in a few weeks?

The way we play is down to coaching, the players are good enough to finish much higher. Arsenal play as individuals, not a team, which is down to coaching. All of our wins this season have been down to incredibly individual brilliance.

 

[AB13]

I mean, I feel like I remember these problems under Wenger as well. Not that I want to defend Emery but

Wengers latest teams always pressed high, attacked freely with creativity and will, through the middle and always passed forwards. The main problem under Wenger was the inability to defend in an organised manner transition, and at times, a lack of intensity and defensive stability.

 

[Corto]

The midfield is horrendously unbalanced and the CBS aren’t good enough, but other than that the players are all good. Coaching is the reason we have struggled so much, Unai Emery made sure this team backs off every time the opposition gets the ball because he wants us to invite pressure, we where not allowed to play through the middle under him, reling solely on crosses and cutbacks instead of playing to our strengths.

I don't see a world class player in Arsenal's midfield. Torreira? Ghendouzi? Xhaka? Nah, man.
Özil was one - but he's a more offensive player, not B2B mid, and been off his best for a while.

The fullback pairing of Bellerin and Tierney are offensively brilliant and defensively solid, but none of them have been fit for more than a few games during the full season. I sense a very clear plan to build a young core, with exiting young prospects in various positions being signed in every window for a couple of seasons now!

Bellerin and Tierney are out. I only judge what I see on the pitch. And no idea if Tierney will work out, coming from Celtic. You may end up with a new Robertson or he may just be a serviceable squad player.

We have the pieces for fast paced, counter attacking football just like United with the speed and skill of Pepe, Martinelli, Aubameyang, Nelson and Saka. Emery just did not allow us to counter attack, but I have seen large improvements there since he left, despite Ljungberg not being a ”proper” coach.

Martinelli, Nelson and Saka shouldn't be in this conversation. They're projects and talents. They're not world class players and people shouldn't be surpised Brighton is battering you if you expect them to carry a game.
Auba seems to be on his way out, though I do think highly of Pepe - just wouldn't exactly call him world class yet.

Our squad was one point off the top 4 last season, and improved during the summer transfer window.

Others have improved more.

I don't think any Arsenal player makes the City or Liverpool starting 11. (not sure even 1 makes the bench of either team)
And honestly, not sure more than 1-2 make the starting 11 of Chelsea, Spurs or Leicester.

They are THAT behind. And United is right there with them, especially once Pogba is gone.

 

[AB13]

I don't see a world class player in Arsenal's midfield. Torreira? Ghendouzi? Xhaka? Nah, man.
Özil was one - but he's a more offensive player, not B2B mid, and been off his best for a while.



Bellerin and Tierney are out. I only judge what I see on the pitch. And no idea if Tierney will work out, coming from Celtic. You may end up with a new Robertson or he may just be a serviceable squad player.



Martinelli, Nelson and Saka shouldn't be in this conversation. They're projects and talents. They're not world class players and people shouldn't be surpised Brighton is battering you if you expect them to carry a game.
Auba seems to be on his way out, though I do think highly of Pepe - just wouldn't exactly call him world class yet.



Others have improved more.

I don't think any Arsenal player makes the City or Liverpool starting 11. (not sure even 1 makes the bench of either team)
And honestly, not sure more than 1-2 make the starting 11 of Chelsea, Spurs or Leicester.

They are THAT behind. And United is right there with them, especially once Pogba is gone.

Chelsea, Leicester and Spurs both have similarly weak 11s as Arsenal, I think. I completely agree that we lack enough world class talent, but so do Spurs and Chelsea. Our squad is far from good enough, but I don’t think you take into consideration just how sh*t that Spurs midfield is, how horrendous their fullbacks are and how shocking their goalkeepers are. Chelsea have a horrific defence, no serviceable wingers or fullbacks and an unrealiable goalie. Both Chelsea and Sp*rs are well coached, that is the difference. We should be able to win as many games as them, and we do have more firepower than both going forward.

Martinelli should not be overly relied on, but he is a very special talent that can have a large impact on the league right now. Otherwise I agree on your comments on the prospects, I never said they where players to rely on to win us games but they can be great, electric counter attacking options like I said.

 

[Corto]

Chelsea, Leicester and Spurs both have similarly weak 11s as Arsenal, I think. I completely agree that we lack enough world class talent, but so do Spurs and Chelsea. Our squad is far from good enough, but I don’t think you take into consideration just how sh*t that Spurs midfield is, how horrendous their fullbacks are and how shocking their goalkeepers are. Chelsea have a horrific defence, no serviceable wingers or fullbacks and an unrealiable goalie. Both Chelsea and Sp*rs are well coached, that is the difference. We should be able to win as many games as them, and we do have more firepower than both going forward.

I'd say Chelsea have the best midfield in the EPL after City (Kante-Kovacic-Jorginho) and it's been hiding how inept their defense is.
These three guys do a ton of work defensively as well as run the play, yet there's only so much you can do when the CBs and the goalkeeper are actively giving the ball to the opposition.
Thing is, Chelsea is a healthy Rudiger and maybe 2 players away from being a truly top team.
A top tier winger (CHO is NOT one and as good as Abraham has been, CHO has shown nothing at this level), a LB and a CB and they're covered.
They will also have RLC to rotate into that midfield (Mount's play has fallen off a lot lately).

Spurs, OTOH, have a great forward core, very good central defence, decent-but-not-great-fullbacks (though Mou is playing a 4-2-3-1 which converts into a 3-4-3 when attacking, Aurier goes up but Jan basically plays 3rd CB and Son goes to the wing - Martinez did a similar thing with Belgium at the WC, and Jan played the same role there), and Moussa. When "on", Sissoko is a top player - but they need another top midfielder IMO. Winks is still young but I don't think he'll be world class, Dier is... Dier. Unless Ndombele works out, Mou is gonna have to go shopping.

This is just my opinion. But both Chelsea and Spurs are much more to being a proper contender (both at home and in Europe) NOW, and they're only a few pieces away for the future - while Arsenal and United are miles away (IMO).

 

[AB13]

I'd say Chelsea have the best midfield in the EPL after City (Kante-Kovacic-Jorginho) and it's been hiding how inept their defense is.
These three guys do a ton of work defensively as well as run the play, yet there's only so much you can do when the CBs and the goalkeeper are actively giving the ball to the opposition.
Thing is, Chelsea is a healthy Rudiger and maybe 2 players away from being a truly top team.
A top tier winger (CHO is NOT one and as good as Abraham has been, CHO has shown nothing at this level), a LB and a CB and they're covered.
They will also have RLC to rotate into that midfield (Mount's play has fallen off a lot lately).

Spurs, OTOH, have a great forward core, very good central defence, decent-but-not-great-fullbacks (though Mou is playing a 4-2-3-1 which converts into a 3-4-3 when attacking, Aurier goes up but Jan basically plays 3rd CB and Son goes to the wing - Martinez did a similar thing with Belgium at the WC, and Jan played the same role there), and Moussa. When "on", Sissoko is a top player - but they need another top midfielder IMO. Winks is still young but I don't think he'll be world class, Dier is... Dier. Unless Ndombele works out, Mou is gonna have to go shopping.

This is just my opinion. But both Chelsea and Spurs are much more to being a proper contender (both at home and in Europe) NOW, and they're only a few pieces away for the future - while Arsenal and United are miles away (IMO).

None of Chelsea and Spurs are close to being contenders. Chelsea can become that in the near future, but right now their team is not good enough. I agree that their midfield is brilliant, but every single defender they have is absolutely shocking, not even top 10 quality. Their midfield is doing an excellent job shielding the defence, unlike ours, which also is partly to do with coaching. Abraham is good, but the rest of their attack is far from good enough to compete for titles. The midfield and Abraham is really all Chelsea have, and Lampards honeymoon period is starting to end.

Spurs have good forwards, but not at the level of Arsenal. Their midfield pivot is unbalanced and struggles to control the tempo and supply line breaking forward passes, just like ours. They have good central defenders, but they have declined massively as of late. Alderwiereld and Verthonghen are not what they once where, and while Sanchez can be dominant at times thanks to his physique and pace, he is inconsistent, overly aggressive, not a smart player and error prone. Mourinho is a great short term manager for them though. Coaching is all that separates Arsenal from Chelsea and Spurs, and looking at the table the difference isn’t that large.

 

[hatterson]

To be clear, I think Utd are in the same boat. Just that they won vs Spurs and City and now the public opinion seems to have turned.
But they'll keep dropping points and the doubt will come back.

I think the big difference between the squads is that United seem to have a plan. You can absolutely debate if it’ll work, or if Ole is the guy to implement it (I’ve made no secret I don’t think he is), but it’s pretty clear the goal is to build a team that defends smartly and attacks with pace.

They clearly attempted to address their weak spots (Maguire, they pursued several midfielders) and have moved out players that weren’t going to be part of the future (Lukaku, Sanchez, etc).

The players they purchased were either (in their flawed opinion) top class talents, or very young with a lot of growth potential.

Again, you can absolutely debate if the strategy will work, if Ole can pull it off, or if Woodward will actually have the ability to follow through, but it’s pretty clear they now have a plan they’re chasing.

Arsenal doesn’t really seem to have a plan. Luiz was a stupid buy that really only fits if you see yourself as a mid table squad. Pepe has a ton of talent, but makes more sense for a team where he’s the 3rd or 4th attacking option and is ready to win very soon. With Arsenal his weaknesses are exposed far lore, and by the time they’re ready to compete he’ll likely be 27 or 28 and they’ll have to identify a replacement. Tierney was a good signing. Not sure if it’ll work out yet, but it was a position of need and they addressed it with a young player with some potential.

All three signings send a different message. One is a desperate attempt to plug a hole with whatever is available at the last minute like mid table squads sometimes are forced to do. One says you’re trying to win now. And the third says you’re building a solid base for the future.

 

[AB13]

I think the big difference between the squads is that United seem to have a plan. You can absolutely debate if it’ll work, or if Ole is the guy to implement it (I’ve made no secret I don’t think he is), but it’s pretty clear the goal is to build a team that defends smartly and attacks with pace.

They clearly attempted to address their weak spots (Maguire, they pursued several midfielders) and have moved out players that weren’t going to be part of the future (Lukaku, Sanchez, etc).

The players they purchased were either (in their flawed opinion) top class talents, or very young with a lot of growth potential.

Again, you can absolutely debate if the strategy will work, if Ole can pull it off, or if Woodward will actually have the ability to follow through, but it’s pretty clear they now have a plan they’re chasing.

Arsenal doesn’t really seem to have a plan. Luiz was a stupid buy that really only fits if you see yourself as a mid table squad. Pepe has a ton of talent, but makes more sense for a team where he’s the 3rd or 4th attacking option and is ready to win very soon. With Arsenal his weaknesses are exposed far lore, and by the time they’re ready to compete he’ll likely be 27 or 28 and they’ll have to identify a replacement. Tierney was a good signing. Not sure if it’ll work out yet, but it was a position of need and they addressed it with a young player with some potential.

All three signings send a different message. One is a desperate attempt to plug a hole with whatever is available at the last minute like mid table squads sometimes are forced to do. One says you’re trying to win now. And the third says you’re building a solid base for the future.

Saliba, Martinelli, Tierney, Pepe, Torriera and Guendouzi have all been signed recently. All young players, most of which play completely different roles and positions. That screams “ we have a plan for the future”. Arsenal are clearly rebuilding for the future, bringing in old players like Luiz too doesn’t mean Arsenal don’t plan for the future.

 

[Pouchkine]

I feel like UCL's shouldn't be the be all end all of how we rate managers... but you do you man.

1 Champions League or at least 1 UEFA-Europa in 22 years wouldn't be too much to ask for such a big club.

 

[maclean]

Wengers latest teams always pressed high, attacked freely with creativity and will, through the middle and always passed forwards. The main problem under Wenger was the inability to defend in an organised manner transition, and at times, a lack of intensity and defensive stability.

They most certainly did not always pass forwards. They were always passing the ball sideways and backwards. There was a definite lack of creativity and they may have pressed higher but often failed at it. Lack of intensity you conceded yourself. Mind you, I'm talking specifically about the last couple years of Wenger, I'm not saying it was always like that

 

[AB13]

They most certainly did not always pass forwards. They were always passing the ball sideways and backwards. There was a definite lack of creativity and they may have pressed higher but often failed at it. Lack of intensity you conceded yourself. Mind you, I'm talking specifically about the last couple years of Wenger, I'm not saying it was always like that

Did you really say there was a lack of creativity? We scored a massive amount of goals and created countless chances every game, remember the 33 shot game against United during Wengers last year? We dominated possession and mostly played forwards.

The pressing wasn’t great, I agree, but it was so much better than under Unai.

 

[hatterson]

Did you really say there was a lack of creativity? We scored a massive amount of goals and created countless chances every game, remember the 33 shot game against United during Wengers last year? We dominated possession but mostly played forwards.

The pressing wasn’t great, I agree, but it was so much better than under Unai.

The 33 shot game against United was because United went up 2 goals as soon as the game started and then just sat back and defended the entire time. Pogba also got himself sent off with 20 minutes to go.

That game had little to do with Arsenal playing positively or forward and everything to do with United sitting on a 2 goal lead and daring Arsenal to get one past De Gea.

 

[AB13]

The 33 shot game against United was because United went up 2 goals as soon as the game started and then just sat back and defended the entire time. Pogba also got himself sent off with 20 minutes to go.

That game had little to do with Arsenal playing positively or forward and everything to do with United sitting on a 2 goal lead and daring Arsenal to get one past De Gea.

United scored the second in the 11th minute, and Arsenal pressured from start to finish. Arsenal had many such games that season, our XG numbers where miles better than today and our chances created were the second highest in the Premier League if I remember correctly. We played very attacking, progressive football that year, almost a bit naive at times.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Do you really expect an interim coach who is not fully licensed and has never managed before, without a coaching staff to back him up, to turn around a mess created by one of the worst managers in the world in a few weeks?

And why would any well run club make someone that inexperienced their interim manager? Nonetheless a club that's truly in crisis. It's just moronic.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Saliba, Martinelli, Tierney, Pepe, Torriera and Guendouzi have all been signed recently. All young players, most of which play completely different roles and positions. That screams “ we have a plan for the future”. Arsenal are clearly rebuilding for the future, bringing in old players like Luiz too doesn’t mean Arsenal don’t plan for the future.

Buying players doesn't mean there's a plan. Especially when only 1/2 players on that list truly fill a need at your club.