Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - Marc my words, they'll get him signed

[Randy Butternubs]

I thought he was just as bad or worse on the D side?

I believe you are correct. He's apparently a different type of bad. From my understanding the effort is mostly there. But he just doesn't have the IQ or awareness to do the right things.

Like, Guentzel certainly isn't "good" in the defensive end. But we give him a pass because he gives the appearance of trying. And because he's money with Sid.

 

[Gurglesons]

I thought he was just as bad or worse on the D side?

He’s not. Statistically he is, but honestly defensive analytics aren’t the best. They usually are based on shot metrics and those can be totally misgiving depending on how the system works.

I would not be surprised if Montreal ran heavy on letting shots through outside of the circles to give Price work.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Michalek was even worse in year 2 than he was in year 1 and Michalek is the more comparable guy to JJ, so I wouldn't be holding my breath on that

JJ is a better skater but yeah...damn it. I TRIED TO BE POSITIVE....

 

[cygnus47]

So now when Trotman and Riikola get sent down JJ still fits under the cap. Yaaaaaayyyyy :/

 

[66-30-33]

I believe you are correct. He's apparently a different type of bad. From my understanding the effort is mostly there. But he just doesn't have the IQ or awareness to do the right things.

Like, Guentzel certainly isn't "good" in the defensive end. But we give him a pass because he gives the appearance of trying. And because he's money with Sid.

I see, well at least he tries I suppose.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I see, well at least he tries I suppose.

I could be mistaken. Let's see what the fancy stats bring.

 

[Jacob]

I contend that there's nobody worse than Phil on D in the league. Even if Galchenyuk was well below average that's still an improvement, and I'd give him more credit than that.

He's a skilled player with an offensive mindset that isn't out there to win a Selke but knows that part of creating offense is defending so you can get the puck back and managing the puck when you get it. But there's also some risk/reward balancing. I'd say he's like Neal was defensively.

 

[WayneSid9987]

The one thing i did notice with the charts is Chucky covered his point man very well in the D zone vs Phil who would let more shots through from his man he's supposed to cover.
Offensively is where the difference is.
Chucky's considered a balanced offensive player who thrives off the shot-assist.
Phil, when he's on of course, is considered a playmaker who when he decides to use his shot, has done pretty well with it over the years.

The other good stat of Chucky's that i remember is he's good to great on zone entries.

 

[66-30-33]

I sorta remember this 1 time with Kessel last year but didn't he come out of the penalty box and give the puck away leading to a breakaway goal against?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I have mixed feelings about how Gooch will work out and will miss a lot of what Kessel brought but the latter makes the former look like prime Bobby Holik in comparison.

I've seen a lot of defense-optional offensive players come through Pittsburgh... Kessel was perhaps the king of them all. I'm pretty forgiving when it comes to all-offense guys doing their thing so long as the production is there. But Kessel was downright comical most of the time. I can almost imagine, as the season wore on, his linemates begging him to do something... anything... while they were being hopelessly outmanned and repeatedly crosschecked in the kidneys during board battles as he was standing around breathing heavily waiting for the puck.

 

[mpp9]

My issue with Kessel was second and third effort on the puck. I thought he was meh defensively. He'd back check more than most here will admit.

 

[MrBurghundy]

My issue with Kessel was second and third effort on the puck. I thought he was meh defensively. He'd back check more than most here will admit.

Sure he'd backcheck, but that's the beginning and the end of his defensive acumen.

 

[Riptide]

That is definitely true and exactly why I have very little interest in resigning him.

And anyone else we sign to fill that spot is going to cost even more or be even worse.... so it's not like we have all that many options.

 

[Riptide]

I thought he was just as bad or worse on the D side?

He's about as effective. The difference is that he's not lazy - Gally works his but off, but he's just not all that good defensively. Kessel could be average/good defensively if he really wanted to, and at times we saw it in the PO runs. But for the most part he just doesn't care to try. I'll still go with the guy that's trying hard who isn't as good vs the guy who's skilled as f*** but just can't be bothered to try.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Kessel's issue(s) stem from his "I'm gonna do it however I want, whenever I want" approach. When he's hungry, he's great. When he loses that hunger, or gets frustrated, it's seemingly impossible for him to regain that drive.

I'm glad he helped this team win back to backs, but I'm also glad he's gone. He was a big problem, and the stuff that's come out since his trade, from Malkin in particular, just reinforce that for me. He hit his expiration date sometime during the Caps series, I'd guess. The fact that he made it another year with the club is a testament to the fact that they tried to let him work through his issues and find his stride again.

Oh well. Now, to trade JJ and hope the newcomers all fit in well. I think Tanev will be a solid player for us like Hagelin was. I think Galchenyuk has the talent and (hopefully) fire under his ass to find another gear with Geno--giving us that exceptionally important Sid/Jake, Geno/Galchenyuk one-two punch on our first two lines. Hopefully we figure out what to do with Schultz; I still think he's gone next summer either way. He'll either play well enough in a contract year to price himself out of town, or he'll continue to struggle and it won't make sense for us to pony up to keep him around.

 

[Peat]

I was typing fast they have 17.9 in space for next year. So 17.9 + 8.5 (Rust, Gudbranson, Zar) + 1mil cap increase gives you 27.4 mil. I wouldn't resign schultz for that much unless he has a great year. If he has a down year I would offer 5 x 4 tops. Look at what Gardiner got. Very similar players and the same age.

Also I think if Chucky has a good first half you try to sign him during the season for 5-5.5. I think you could get him to bite. Either way I think this team will have lots of moving parts throughout the year.

Gardiner is not a good comparable for anything. People have got to stop using him as one. He's at the extreme low end of what players of his reputation get in free agency and that's happened due to a) Freak Circumstances with the cap this summer b) An injury red flag so prominent it can be seen from space by the naked eye. He won't be the standard used for contracts next year.

If Myers got 6m, then most good RD will be around that number next year. Don't really care who people want to give it to, it's either give it to someone, do very well in trade, or have a massive hole in the line up.

Galchenyuk isn't signing that unless he feels like doing you a massive favour.

There'll be a lot of moving parts.

Not having another Tanev available in FA for JR to sign is a positive as far as I’m concerned....but let’s say we want to re-sign all our UFAs and RFAs after winning the Cup next summer...if you take all of their expected salaries, it’s probably somewhere around $30 mil...but how much space we’ll need will depend only on the increase in salary between what they make now and what they’ll be making next year....

So let’s say the total increase in salary is $18 mil, minus $2 mil increase in the cap conservatively, that’s $16 mil in salary we need to excise approximately...JJ, Guds, Rust, Horny and Bjug are the options...we’re basically going to have to lose all of them and replace them with young players making under a $1 mil...POJ, Marino, Lafferty, or Bjorkqvist, Bellerive, Angello etc, all need to be ready...this is very doable btw, but our Wilkes players have to be the replacements...

Don't forget the difficulty there'll be in moving that many players and getting nothing back. I'd be bullish about doing it with 2 or 3, but with 4 or 5? Ouch.

But yes, it is doable, and yes the key to how successful we'll be next year will be how many cheap young players we can get. I'd expect to see a few guys like Kahun come in.

But it'll be chaos. That's my main point. It'll be absolute mayhem. A better hockey historian than me will know the answer, but how often do teams have to lose 15m or so in one summer?

 

[chethejet]

While Phil may be a positive for the Yotes, he became a real problem here. GMJR did a good job with the asset return. In the end Galchenyuk will have to really get it as to defensive coverages and effort. Sully knows he just can't give that much latitude to anyone again if the Pens are to be good.

 

[JackFr]

And anyone else we sign to fill that spot is going to cost even more or be even worse.... so it's not like we have all that many options.

Says who? We just acquired Pettersson (who's played like a top 4 for us) for relatively little, Gardiner just went for way below value, guys have been available this summer who are better...

I don't get why we should just be content to sign a defenceman who's been really bad the past two seasons to the Myers contract just because it's not worth trying to improve.

 

[Peat]

Says who? We just acquired Pettersson (who's played like a top 4 for us) for relatively little, Gardiner just went for way below value, guys have been available this summer who are better...

I don't get why we should just be content to sign a defenceman who's been really bad the past two seasons to the Myers contract just because it's not worth trying to improve.

If we replace Schultz in free agency then yeah, we're probably paying more or getting a player equal or comparable to. Gardiner was a freak occurrence; expecting another one anytime soon is like expecting every 3rd rounder to be Guentzel imo.

If we replace him in trade... well, that's a different kettle of fish, but I'd point out we're not exactly overloaded with prime trade bait (although we're better than we were) and aren't in a great position to be taking on cap without sending it back next summer.

If people are sour on Schultz and don't want him, then fair enough I guess. But if we're just balking at giving RHD free agency prices to RHD, then things are going to get even more tricky than they already were this summer.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

The problem is that the Penguins aren't a team that operates that way. A team like Montreal does do that, but the Penguins? The only expensive guy I recall them waiving was Satan in 2009.

Fingers crossed that you're wrong.

 

[Peat]

See, that's just the thing though. ZAR has only played in 60 games, but the results he has given have been extremely good across the board.

I think he should definitely be penciled into an everyday role, he deserves it just as much as Simon does IMO. The issue I have with signing Tanev without moving another player is that you're pushing out a young player who has been analytically strong in the NHL so far, whether that player is Simon or ZAR. I like the addition of Tanev, but I don't like the addition of Tanev in the context of pushing either Simon or ZAR out of the lineup. I like the addition of Tanev with also trading Rust for futures and signing Pettersson long-term. Even if those guys are better than Tanev, they won't be playing over Tanev because of the contract Tanev got.

I like the sound of Tanev too and I like having strong depth, but I feel like there's a difference between having strong depth and not managing your roster smartly. To me, this is completely good depth:

McCann-Crosby-Guentzel
Galchenyuk-Malkin-Rust
Kahun-Bjugstad-Hornqvist
ZAR-Blueger-Simon

That is extremely strong depth all around IMO, outside of maybe having some concerns with Blueger at center. Signing Tanev just pushes another good player out of your lineup, it's just...why? If Tanev was a center, I'd be changing my tune based on Blueger not being completely proven in a NHL role. But I don't believe he has played center in the NHL.

Edit: here's the best way I'll put it, we're trying to figure out how we can sign Pettersson and be cap compliant with a 22 man roster because JR signed Tanev without shipping out anyone else. To me, that's bad roster management.

Circling back to this - to me this seems to be two separate arguments:

1) We've got too much depth and it may hurt the team/individual players

2) The price for this depth has hurt the team and wasn't worth it.

1 - This team has been overloading its depth since Rutherford got here and by and large, it's gone well. There's maybe been the occasional case of stalled development, a couple of cases of bruised ego and confidence, but by and large it's benefited from having a lot of options and not lost much from the mishaps. As such, I'm all for it. ZAR's level of experience means I don't think he's going to kick up, which is the main issue, and the forwards will be stronger for it. And I think once trades and injuries happen, things'll sort themselves out quick - too quick. It won't be long before we're worrying about who's more ready out of Lafferty and AJ rather than who plays out of ZAR and Simon.

2 - Well, aye, mebbe. Not too happy about 22 players, but generally when I complain about this sort of thing in sports teams, it ends up well enough (famous last words). Would I rather Pettersson on a long term contract? Now that we're here, I like the one year bridge. I like being loaded up for our last year with Murray for cheap and lots of cheap good RFAs (well, maybe we've got it next year as well). Next year is uncertain in so many ways; maybe saving a million or so on Pettersson won't even matter. But I think that saving will be big this year. And who knows? He isn't so sure that we mightn't have regretted going straight to the big contract.

Reality is we don't know if this hurts us for a while yet. I get people being uncomfortable with the gamble.

But the prospect of ZAR or Simon sitting some games? That's the sort of depth I like. If only we could be sitting a LD as good as them!

 

[dogthateats]

 

[Fordy]

let the jr eat

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

JJ and a 2nd for clown man

JJ and Rust for Clown man and a 3rd

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

While Phil may be a positive for the Yotes, he became a real problem here. GMJR did a good job with the asset return. In the end Galchenyuk will have to really get it as to defensive coverages and effort. Sully knows he just can't give that much latitude to anyone again if the Pens are to be good.

Despite the news that came out about the attitude and the fact that he rejected a move to the Wild, yes GMJR did a fantastic job to move him and get that solid of a return. Galchenyuk will do well and POJ is a solid prospect going forward.