Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - Marc my words, they'll get him signed

[Empoleon8771]

I mean, Empo. This is our issue with the Tanev contract LOL.

I feel like the issue with the Tanev contract was that it was a comical overpayment with both term and money for a 3rd liner

Maybe that was a lesser mentioned problem, but I feel like that's the bigger complaint.

 

[billybudd]

Yeah, I really don't view it as irrational to expect someone to put in even a shred of effort in a reply to someone you put effort in. If you do, well that's a you problem. You can make a no effort reply to a post that actually made some effort, and I can think you're a jerk for doing so. Is that fine?

Let's make an analogy here, let's say you do a little bit of research for your company on an idea that is viewed as unpopular, and when you show your findings to a coworker, their reply is "nah you're wrong, your idea is wrong because it's obviously a bad idea". Do you think the coworker is being a jerk?

A better corporate analogy would be that someone interrupts a meeting by loudly, angrily demanding that someone else offer definitive proof that having two working arms is preferable to having one of them amputated. This person then insists anyone not immediately providing him with this proof "is a jerk."

Now what's more the more likely outcome of this scenario:

a) someone in the room puts together a comprehensive presentation on this matter on the spot

b) the guy gets sent home with a recommendation to go get some rest

 

[Gurglesons]

I feel like the issue with the Tanev contract was that it was a comical overpayment with both term and money for a 3rd liner

Maybe that was a lesser mentioned problem, but I feel like that's the bigger complaint.

I think myself and many’s biggest issue wasn’t the contract, but more so the contract on this team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

A better corporate analogy would be that someone interrupts a meeting by loudly, angrily demanding that someone else offer definitive proof that having two working arms is preferable to having one of them amputated. This person then insists anyone not immediately providing him with this proof "is a jerk."

Now what's more the more likely outcome of this scenario:

a) someone in the room puts together a comprehensive presentation on this matter on the spot

b) the guy gets sent home with a recommendation to go get some rest

Damn, you must have been hitting the liquor early to say that coming up with a stats based argument that says "Cole and Johnson weren't all that different analytically from 2015-2018" suddenly equals "having one arm is better than two". But hey, if you want to start drinking that early, be my guest. I won't judge.

 

[Peat]

I think we’ll end up losing like 500k-1.25M per year this way. Which is worth it IMO if it means we get to make a more informed decision on who to jettison from the forward group.

Not sure I see a big spike in Petts production given his style of play and having Schultz/Letang in front of him for PP duty but....

If he goes nuts offensively then it’ll probably mean a few things: Pettersson was effective in helping drive the 2nd pair, Malkin had a big year, and Pettersson took a big step in his development. Regardless of the consequences next summer cap-wise I will take those things happening every single day haha.

True. Very true. Although you forgot the point in my calculations where he promptly regresses

In terms of contracts, this is our year to go for it. Having Pettersson on a one year deal's not a massive step up in the pain that is coming this summer, but it could provide the edge in terms of winning it all.

Now that we're on the topic, what exactly was the point of also signing Tanev but not subtracting anyone else? I know what Tanev adds and I definitely think he brought things to the table that the bottom-6 lacked, but you were already 12 deep in forwards before you signed him. I'd like to think that their plan all along was to trade one of their more expensive forwards, but nothing ever materialized out of that. I don't know how crazy I am about JR not taking that possibility more seriously, that he could be signing Tanev to a huge contract when he may struggle to clearing up cap space and a roster spot for him.

The only way there won't be a roster spot for Tanev is if

a) Simon, ZAR et al play out of their f***ing skins in camp to the point he's legit the odd man out, at which point things are looking so good I'm not that fussed whether Tanev plays or not

and

b) We're completely healthy, which probably happens less than half the season.

As such, I feel relaxed about this. Hell, happy. The competition for places will push people. The depth *should* be strong. If we need/want to trade a forward, we're already set. And if we get through to the play-offs and Tanev's really been unable to push beyond the 4th line because we haven't traded anyone and everyone's playing well... then Tanev on the 4th line is the sort of depth you want.

 

[Gurglesons]

True. Very true. Although you forgot the point in my calculations where he promptly regresses

In terms of contracts, this is our year to go for it. Having Pettersson on a one year deal's not a massive step up in the pain that is coming this summer, but it could provide the edge in terms of winning it all.



The only way there won't be a roster spot for Tanev is if

a) Simon, ZAR et al play out of their ****ing skins in camp to the point he's legit the odd man out, at which point things are looking so good I'm not that fussed whether Tanev plays or not

and

b) We're completely healthy, which probably happens less than half the season.

As such, I feel relaxed about this. Hell, happy. The competition for places will push people. The depth *should* be strong. If we need/want to trade a forward, we're already set. And if we get through to the play-offs and Tanev's really been unable to push beyond the 4th line because we haven't traded anyone and everyone's playing well... then Tanev on the 4th line is the sort of depth you want.

The best part of Tanev on the fourth line is if he plays at his expectations from last year he’ll insulate Blueger if he is struggling.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Eh idk @Peat, bringing in Tanev basically just pushes ZAR out of the lineup and I struggle to say that ZAR doesn't deserve a full time role. Sure, injuries will probably happen, but I don't think you can bank on that to give players the ice time that will make them happy. I don't think whatever depth player that is going to be demoted will take kindly to that when it's not because of their play.

It's just...weird, that's what I'll call it. On July 1st, the Penguins were extremely deep at forward all around, with having a kick ass 4th line of ZAR-Blueger-Simon on paper. You had like $4 million in cap space, which you could use to give Pettersson a long term deal. So you decide to spend 90% of that on Tanev? It's just confusing. It's a similar comment that I made at the time of the ZAR signing, the transactions the Penguins have made don't make sense without another forward getting moved out.

Edit: I should make it clear I'm glad Tanev is here, it's just a little weird to see that we're 1 day away from camp and haven't moved out any forwards. It will probably work out fine, it's just weird.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I'm not a huge ZAR fan by any stretch but he's significantly cheaper and doesn't provide a HUGE dropoff in production and role-specific needs, either.

Just... really kind of a dingbat move.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

The best part of Tanev on the fourth line is if he plays at his expectations from last year he’ll insulate Blueger if he is struggling.

The best part is if the bottom 6 is great they can be the ones to carry JJ and hopefully tread water instead of drowning. It's like practice for the PKers, too.

Still a moronic contract.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Just remember the mantra, guys: Anyone can be traded whenever so stop bitching

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

True. Very true. Although you forgot the point in my calculations where he promptly regresses

In terms of contracts, this is our year to go for it. Having Pettersson on a one year deal's not a massive step up in the pain that is coming this summer, but it could provide the edge in terms of winning it all.



The only way there won't be a roster spot for Tanev is if

a) Simon, ZAR et al play out of their ****ing skins in camp to the point he's legit the odd man out, at which point things are looking so good I'm not that fussed whether Tanev plays or not

and

b) We're completely healthy, which probably happens less than half the season.

As such, I feel relaxed about this. Hell, happy. The competition for places will push people. The depth *should* be strong. If we need/want to trade a forward, we're already set. And if we get through to the play-offs and Tanev's really been unable to push beyond the 4th line because we haven't traded anyone and everyone's playing well... then Tanev on the 4th line is the sort of depth you want.

Tanev signing was a mistake BUT to be fair to the team’s lip service they are right that he adds a element/type of player we did not have. So I do think this bottom 6 could be nightmarish if it can coexist with our blueline.

The best part of Tanev on the fourth line is if he plays at his expectations from last year he’ll insulate Blueger if he is struggling.

I feel like a Tanev-Blueger combo should work really well together given in theory their styles of play.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

Just remember the mantra, guys: Anyone can be traded whenever so stop *****ing

Right, right. Just ignore the cost. Anyone can have drugs planted on them while crossing the border.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Right, right. Just ignore the cost. Anyone can have drugs planted on them while crossing the border.

If it's good enough for the Kings, it's good enough for us!

 

[Peat]

Eh idk @Peat, bringing in Tanev basically just pushes ZAR out of the lineup and I struggle to say that ZAR doesn't deserve a full time role. Sure, injuries will probably happen, but I don't think you can bank on that to give players the ice time that will make them happy. I don't think whatever depth player that is going to be demoted will take kindly to that when it's not because of their play.

It's just...weird, that's what I'll call it. On July 1st, the Penguins were extremely deep at forward all around, with having a kick ass 4th line of ZAR-Blueger-Simon on paper. You had like $4 million in cap space, which you could use to give Pettersson a long term deal. So you decide to spend 90% of that on Tanev? It's just confusing. It's a similar comment that I made at the time of the ZAR signing, the transactions the Penguins have made don't make sense without another forward getting moved out.

I feel pretty safety banking on injuries with our forward corps. Rust, ZAR and Hornqvist in particular all have serious histories of being a sicknote. And if a player can't crack the line up ahead of Tanev (much as I like what I've heard of him), then it's at least partially on their play. Also ZAR has 60-odd games, he's been okay to good but not amazing and sometimes pretty bad, that's not a guy contenders should be promising a spot and deserves has nothing to do with it, so I'm okay with that too.

I can't lie, I was sceptical about getting a guy like Tanev before it happened due to our forward depth, but

a) I just really like the sound of Tanev. I put a big premium on our forwards putting pressure on the puck carrier. That wasn't there last season. Tanev will bring it. I can forgive a fair amount of inefficiency if he does that.

b) I like having mad depth. I think it makes us more likely to win. Maybe it bites us in a bit down the line, but Tanev and Pettersson for 4.5m > Pettersson + ZAR for 4.5m (or so) and this is a season to swing big in before the cap crunch comes. I don't get why anybody would dislike mad depth tbh. I get preferring other things done, but not looking at it and thinking "this doesn't make sense".

c) The fact they haven't moved a forward before the start of the season means less than f*** all anyway with how Rutherford likes to trade in season. If Rutherford wants to wait on that rather than get bilked because the plan was to trade, then good on him.

All in all, I like how things have turned out.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think it depends on what "fancy garbage with a few air fresheners on top" is. If Johnson actually plays like the Penguins advertised him to be (physical D who can skate with the puck and has a solid outlet pass), that would be helpful for the team, just as Ian Cole was helpful for the Penguins. He'd still be poor to bad analytically most likely, but a player like that is useful and can help you win. If Johnson actually plays like that, I think he'd be more useful to keep than Gudbranson. The problem is that Johnson hasn't shown to be that since 2016-2017.

Like others have said, I think the biggest issue is having both Gudbranson and Johnson. If you didn't have one of them, you'd have a much more balanced bottom pair (either JJ-Riikola or Riikola-Gudbranson) and you'd be saving a good chunk of money. With that being said, there's pros and cons of keeping each. I think Johnson is probably better than Gudbranson and makes a little bit less money, but Gudbranson has less term left, is younger and satisfies JR's need for a tough guy.

I just don't get what happened to his offensive ability. I get that he's not some stud puck mover, but I don't recall him being so inept at making an outlet pass or skating the puck up the ice. I figured that would be the one thing about his game that was passable (pretty much figured he'd be an adventure defensively, particularly positionally). I just wasn't ready for his skills with the puck to be as deteriorated as they were last year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I feel pretty safety banking on injuries with our forward corps. Rust, ZAR and Hornqvist in particular all have serious histories of being a sicknote. And if a player can't crack the line up ahead of Tanev (much as I like what I've heard of him), then it's at least partially on their play. Also ZAR has 60-odd games, he's been okay to good but not amazing and sometimes pretty bad, that's not a guy contenders should be promising a spot and deserves has nothing to do with it, so I'm okay with that too.

See, that's just the thing though. ZAR has only played in 60 games, but the results he has given have been extremely good across the board.

I think he should definitely be penciled into an everyday role, he deserves it just as much as Simon does IMO. The issue I have with signing Tanev without moving another player is that you're pushing out a young player who has been analytically strong in the NHL so far, whether that player is Simon or ZAR. I like the addition of Tanev, but I don't like the addition of Tanev in the context of pushing either Simon or ZAR out of the lineup. I like the addition of Tanev with also trading Rust for futures and signing Pettersson long-term. Even if those guys are better than Tanev, they won't be playing over Tanev because of the contract Tanev got.

I can't lie, I was sceptical about getting a guy like Tanev before it happened due to our forward depth, but

a) I just really like the sound of Tanev. I put a big premium on our forwards putting pressure on the puck carrier. That wasn't there last season. Tanev will bring it. I can forgive a fair amount of inefficiency if he does that.

b) I like having mad depth. I think it makes us more likely to win. Maybe it bites us in a bit down the line, but Tanev and Pettersson for 4.5m > Pettersson + ZAR for 4.5m (or so) and this is a season to swing big in before the cap crunch comes. I don't get why anybody would dislike mad depth tbh. I get preferring other things done, but not looking at it and thinking "this doesn't make sense".

c) The fact they haven't moved a forward before the start of the season means less than **** all anyway with how Rutherford likes to trade in season. If Rutherford wants to wait on that rather than get bilked because the plan was to trade, then good on him.

All in all, I like how things have turned out.

I like the sound of Tanev too and I like having strong depth, but I feel like there's a difference between having strong depth and not managing your roster smartly. To me, this is completely good depth:

McCann-Crosby-Guentzel
Galchenyuk-Malkin-Rust
Kahun-Bjugstad-Hornqvist
ZAR-Blueger-Simon

That is extremely strong depth all around IMO, outside of maybe having some concerns with Blueger at center. Signing Tanev just pushes another good player out of your lineup, it's just...why? If Tanev was a center, I'd be changing my tune based on Blueger not being completely proven in a NHL role. But I don't believe he has played center in the NHL.

Edit: here's the best way I'll put it, we're trying to figure out how we can sign Pettersson and be cap compliant with a 22 man roster because JR signed Tanev without shipping out anyone else. To me, that's bad roster management.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I just don't get what happened to his offensive ability. I get that he's not some stud puck mover, but I don't recall him being so inept at making an outlet pass or skating the puck up the ice. I figured that would be the one thing about his game that was passable (pretty much figured he'd be an adventure defensively, particularly positionally). I just wasn't ready for his skills with the puck to be as deteriorated as they were last year.

He seems to have lots of ups and downs offensively. He never impressed me at all on any side of the puck while in CBJ but looking back I was surprised to see him bust out a 40 point and 33 point season 5 and 6 seasons back. Then a bunch of nothing after and before. With a 42 and 36 point season with LA in 11 and 10, respectively.

I think what is going on there is a combination of powerplay time and more importantly smarts. I think JJ has or at least had a decent amount of natural ability. There is a reason he went where he did, after all. But he's just never really had a great hockey IQ and as he's gotten older it's harder and harder to just let skill take over. His skating just isn't what it used to be and his brain hasn't helped make up the difference... you have to be in good position to make plays. You have to have that anticipation. JJ is constantly reacting and as the years have gone on he's reacting fractions of seconds slower and slower.

I'm very glad to hear he has slimmed down a bit this offseason and worked on his skating. But neither of those things are REALLY his issue. Though they can't hurt, I suppose.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Man, I’ve been expecting us to be anchored with the deal since we signed it for at least a couple years.

That’s why I was so pissed about it.

I'm just saying...remember when we got Martin, Michalek, Sarge etc....all were not liked their first year. Z was just slow but the other two rebounded.

We have to assume JJ has half a brain to figure it out and be back better.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm just saying...remember when we got Martin, Michalek, Sarge etc....all were not liked their first year. Z was just slow but the other two rebounded.

We have to assume JJ has half a brain to figure it out and be back better.

Michalek was even worse in year 2 than he was in year 1 and Michalek is the more comparable guy to JJ, so I wouldn't be holding my breath on that

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Martin and Gonchar had more ability and smarts in their giant foreheads than JJ has in his whole body.

 

[Peat]

I think @Sidney the Kidney is right to point at JJ's puck skills and that's the main reason I'm sceptical about the size of any possible Johnson bounce back.

(well, okay, the main reason was watching him)

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I think @Sidney the Kidney is right to point at JJ's puck skills and that's the main reason I'm sceptical about the size of any possible Johnson bounce back.

(well, okay, the main reason was watching him)

I never get tired reading the bolded.

 

[Shady Machine]

A better corporate analogy would be that someone interrupts a meeting by loudly, angrily demanding that someone else offer definitive proof that having two working arms is preferable to having one of them amputated. This person then insists anyone not immediately providing him with this proof "is a jerk."

Now what's more the more likely outcome of this scenario:

a) someone in the room puts together a comprehensive presentation on this matter on the spot

b) the guy gets sent home with a recommendation to go get some rest

You win

 

[Shady Machine]

See, that's just the thing though. ZAR has only played in 60 games, but the results he has given have been extremely good across the board.

I think he should definitely be penciled into an everyday role, he deserves it just as much as Simon does IMO. The issue I have with signing Tanev without moving another player is that you're pushing out a young player who has been analytically strong in the NHL so far, whether that player is Simon or ZAR. I like the addition of Tanev, but I don't like the addition of Tanev in the context of pushing either Simon or ZAR out of the lineup. I like the addition of Tanev with also trading Rust for futures and signing Pettersson long-term. Even if those guys are better than Tanev, they won't be playing over Tanev because of the contract Tanev got.



I like the sound of Tanev too and I like having strong depth, but I feel like there's a difference between having strong depth and not managing your roster smartly. To me, this is completely good depth:

McCann-Crosby-Guentzel
Galchenyuk-Malkin-Rust
Kahun-Bjugstad-Hornqvist
ZAR-Blueger-Simon

That is extremely strong depth all around IMO, outside of maybe having some concerns with Blueger at center. Signing Tanev just pushes another good player out of your lineup, it's just...why? If Tanev was a center, I'd be changing my tune based on Blueger not being completely proven in a NHL role. But I don't believe he has played center in the NHL.

Edit: here's the best way I'll put it, we're trying to figure out how we can sign Pettersson and be cap compliant with a 22 man roster because JR signed Tanev without shipping out anyone else. To me, that's bad roster management.

Sorry Emp, but did you just wake up to this reality? I have been saying this shit all summer lol

 

[Clare2904]

874k one year deal. How have we swung this?