Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - It's the dog days

[DesertPenguin]

Well, you’re arguing completely systems. Maurice used the Tanev line much differently than we would use our bottom six.

My main point is if the argument is Tanev is better suited for a bottom six role than Rusty sure. But, we are paying Tanev, Rust money and term. Just expecting him to be Rust in the top six is stupid. And I think Rust basically being a 20-20 pace guy the past three years is being severely overlooked.

That being said having PK units of Tanev - McCann, Teddy - Rust, Jake - Sid is exciting as ****.

Great point. There's no reason McCann can't take faceoffs on the kill, even if he's playing W at 5 v 5. That looks pretty damn good.

 

[Peat]

Rust has paced at 40ish pts the past three years. 10 pts isn’t something that is easily added to season totals. Yet the idea that Tanev’s point totals are marginally worse than Rusts is constantly brought up. Because Rust was played with Sid and Malkin.

Unless I've missed something, the Tanev-Rust points comparison is post-season only and treating the arguments as if they're about the regular season is utterly disingenuous.

 

[Gurglesons]

Unless I've missed something, the Tanev-Rust points comparison is post-season only and treating the arguments as if they're about the regular season is utterly disingenuous.

And Rust still burned Tanev’s numbers in the playoffs in those two cup runs.

Rust actually averaged less ice time per game at 5v5 in 15–16 then Tanev in both playoffs he’s been in. And had 6-3 to Tanev’s 3-2 at 5v5 in 17-18. In 50 or so minutes. In 16-17 he average 100 more minutes and had 7-2 at 5v5.

His 5v5 goals per 60 and points per 60 were also notably better than Tanev’s 17-18 playoffs.

 

[Riptide]

Rust has paced at 40ish pts the past three years. 10 pts isn’t something that is easily added to season totals. Yet the idea that Tanev’s point totals are marginally worse than Rusts is constantly brought up. Because Rust was played with Sid and Malkin.

A generational center gets you most of the way there. A better defensive game makes up much of the rest. Do I still thing there would be a shortfall? Yes probably (unless he defied all expectations). But by then you're talking about a couple of points at which point it's irrelevant. If one scores 40pts and the other scores 35 but is a little better defensively and provides more away from the puck I'm not going to get all that worked up about it.

 

[JTG]

New thread time. It got me thinking... all these awful trades just to get rid of cap is silly. I'd rather just waive JJ and buy him out next year. It's not that expensive to do it. It's much better than getting rid of talent or picks .

If the guy is a negative asset, it is what it is.

"Don't throw good money after bad." He looks like a sunk cost.

 

[JTG]

I will not judge Tanev until he is here and we see how he is employed. I watched Winnipeg games and the guy always stood out to me.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Fun fact: Stevie Y was Sid's role model growing up

Yea, i remember a pic from Sids basement/card room and he has a Stevie Y framed picture up. I assume its signed.

 

[Riptide]

Yea, i remember a pic from Sids basement/card room and he has a Stevie Y framed picture up. I assume its signed.

By now I imagine so.

 

[Ryder71]

There's a lot I agree with here. I'm not entirely sure I agree with luxury - I thought the team's inability to make their forecheck stick and contest the neutral zone with the forwards was a huge part in its downfall, and someone like Tanev is a significant upgrade if he stays hungry - but W in general was decently strong and it does bring complications. I do wonder whether he'll be worth those complications; I do know I'd have probably been critical if we hadn't tried to upgrade the forwards' defensive qualities though.



Fair enough if that's how you view it, but they do matter a fair deal and there are a lot of arguments based on them, and a lot of the time the argument brings up bad comparisons for Rust.

Also... while I'm sure they like him a lot, I'm pretty sure they like the rest of their forwards too. Someone they like is getting the short end of the stick this season and if it isn't Rust now, he's going to have to work very hard to avoid being the next guy on the list. Rutherford's traded plenty of guys that Sully used heavily too.

I see your perspective and respect your opinion, but again I think you're looking in one direction without considering other important and crucial variables. Teams look at many different factors in determining a players value. With guys like Sid or Geno it's pretty clear what they bring. But when you're getting into depth players or complimentary pieces intangibles weigh more heavily IMO. And that's an area you're really not giving much credence to. And I feel safe in saying the team very likely does. Proven commodities carry weight. To what degree they do is debatable. But when you have a player here who has done it. And the fact that they want to be fast and play fast (which Rust is and can do), guys like him are pretty attractive.

 

[Gurglesons]

I will not judge Tanev until he is here and we see how he is employed. I watched Winnipeg games and the guy always stood out to me.

I don’t hate Tanev at all. It’s just a shitty contract and caused unnecessary problems.

 

[Gurglesons]

A generational center gets you most of the way there. A better defensive game makes up much of the rest. Do I still thing there would be a shortfall? Yes probably (unless he defied all expectations). But by then you're talking about a couple of points at which point it's irrelevant. If one scores 40pts and the other scores 35 but is a little better defensively and provides more away from the puck I'm not going to get all that worked up about it.

Issue being Tanev’s defensive stats drop severely when not with Lowry or Copp. As @Peat has pointed out that is one of those situations where the sample is incredibly skewed. But, it you’re going to butcher Rust for his production bump with Sid and Malkin’s let’s be realistic about the defensive monsters Lowry and Copp are.

 

[NMK11]

I will not judge Tanev until he is here and we see how he is employed. I watched Winnipeg games and the guy always stood out to me.

Look here, buster, you can take that sort of rationality somewhere else. That's not how we do things 'round these parts.

 

[Ryder71]

I don’t hate Tanev at all. It’s just a ****ty contract and caused unnecessary problems.

I like what I've seen out of Tanev thus far with the Jets. But I think there's a lot of uncertainty as to where he'll top out. And I seriously doubt he'll live up to that ridiculous contract.

 

[Gurglesons]

Look here, buster, you can take that sort of rationality somewhere else. That's not how we do things 'round these parts.

I hate these types of arguments. I was it was 1996 and salaries didn’t matter, but the cap is a reality and giving a player that likely is a fourth line wing here that contract is asinine.

I think very few of us will debate that Tanev isn’t an effective bottom six forward.

 

[3074326]

Yeah, my issue with Tanev is the contract. I think he'll be a nice fit here as a player.

 

[Gurglesons]

Guentzel - Crosby - Kahun
Galchenyuk - Malkin - Rust
Simon - Bjugstad - Hornqvist
Tanev - Blueger - McCann

 

[Turin]

I don’t hate Tanev at all. It’s just a ****ty contract and caused unnecessary problems.

You did say he wasn’t even fast to be fair.

 

[Gurglesons]

You did say he wasn’t even fast to be fair.

No. What I said was his speed wouldn't be as big of an asset going from the dredg of the central to the Metro.

 

[HuskerTornado]

So...um, Calgary is in the market for a defenseman, eh? Get that sales pitch going, JR.

 

[Son Goku]

So...um, Calgary is in the market for a defenseman, eh? Get that sales pitch going, JR.

One slightly used Jack Johnson

 

[Zero Pucks]

Look here, buster, you can take that sort of rationality somewhere else. That's not how we do things 'round these parts.

Even if Tanev comes in here and plays well next season, we still have to hold our breath for five more long years hoping he can still live up to that contract.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Except it isn’t. Tanev had 6 points in 17 games playing 13 minutes on average. Rust had 9 points in 23 playing 11 minutes on average in 15-16.

You're cherry-picking both Tanev and Rust's playoff samples here.

The truth is that Rust hasn't been as productive in the playoffs any season since '15-'16...he played a hair short of 14 minutes per in '16-'17 then laid a couple stinkers the past 2 years. So being very selective (and completely arbitrary) with your samples like you have is probably necessary.

 

[Peat]

I see your perspective and respect your opinion, but again I think you're looking in one direction without considering other important and crucial variables. Teams look at many different factors in determining a players value. With guys like Sid or Geno it's pretty clear what they bring. But when you're getting into depth players or complimentary pieces intangibles weigh more heavily IMO. And that's an area you're really not giving much credence to. And I feel safe in saying the team very likely does. Proven commodities carry weight. To what degree they do is debatable. But when you have a player here who has done it. And the fact that they want to be fast and play fast (which Rust is and can do), guys like him are pretty attractive.

I'm looking at one direction because all the arguments other than yours are coming from one direction. I fully agree the team values more than that one direction, but I don't care enough to start bringing up arguments on stuff nobody's even talking about.

But since you've said it, looking at the intangibles doesn't hugely change my mind either because

a) I don't think Rust is an amazing locker room guy - not saying he's bad, but if he was amazing, if he'd turned into a leader, we'd have heard about it and we wouldn't have Rutherford talking up the locker room presence of Bjugstad/Gudbranson and the need for people to grow into being leaders.

b) This team needs hunger more than anything else right now, and Rust was called out by management more than anyone else on that.

c) In terms of what I think they'll do rather than what I'd do, an org that's willing to sacrifice Hags despite his popularity in the room and system fit, is probably willing to sacrifice Rust.

I don't think that's the preferred option but if they get a fair offer in the next week for Rust and not for someone else, then I think they'd go for it. And if he does survive, which I think he will, then I think he needs to find the consistency on ice pretty quick because I simply don't see enough intangibles there to think he can long term justify being the most expensive of a very similar set of players.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Well, ideally I’d prefer these lines in our top six..

Guentzel - Crosby - Kahun
Chuck - Malkin - Rust

I’d also argue this goes back to the Devil you know argument of Sheary versus ZAR and Simon.

My top-6 is that but with McCann on LW and Galchenyuk on RW with Malkin. I don't know how Galchenyuk will do on RW, but the Penguins seem to be planning on having him on RW to start. But even if Galchenyuk doesn't work on RW, my ideal top-6 would be McCann-Crosby-Guentzel and Galchenyuk-Malkin-Kahun. My 3rd line is super set right now with Simon-Bjugstad-Hornqvist. I just don't see a spot for Rust anymore, and it makes it worse for the other reasons I said yesterday.

Even if Tanev comes in here and plays well next season, we still have to hold our breath for five more long years hoping he can still live up to that contract.

I almost guarantee that he won't live up to that contract. No bottom-6 player lives up to the kind of contract that JR gave Tanev.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

So...um, Calgary is in the market for a defenseman, eh? Get that sales pitch going, JR.

One slightly used Jack Johnson

I took a peak at their cap situation. Basically all of the remaining cap space will be used by Tkachuk and Magipiane (spelling on that last one?).

The Pens would have to take salary back and then send it away immediately. Hello Ottawa...?