Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - It's the dog days

[Peat]

I took a peak at their cap situation. Basically all of the remaining cap space will be used by Tkachuk and Magipiane (spelling on that last one?).

The Pens would have to take salary back and then send it away immediately. Hello Ottawa...?

If you could find a team willing to pay Frolik's rental price - or maybe the bulk of it - then a 3 way with Johnson (plus maybe small add) to Calgary, Frolik to 3rd team, and nothing to us would be beautiful. Just pretty unlikely.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

If you could find a team willing to pay Frolik's rental price - or maybe the bulk of it - then a 3 way with Johnson (plus maybe small add) to Calgary, Frolik to 3rd team, and nothing to us would be beautiful. Just pretty unlikely.

Good look. It helps that Frolik's salary is only $3M.

JJ → Calgary ; Frolik → Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh gains $1.05M in cap

Frolik → some team @50% ; picks → Pittsburgh


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that basically does the same thing as just sending JJ to WBS...


So, the Pens would just have to not retain much or any salary to make that a winning series of trades.

 

[Gurglesons]

You're cherry-picking both Tanev and Rust's playoff samples here.

The truth is that Rust hasn't been as productive in the playoffs any season since '15-'16...he played a hair short of 14 minutes per in '16-'17 then laid a couple stinkers the past 2 years. So being very selective (and completely arbitrary) with your samples like you have is probably necessary.

I don’t really think it is fair to judge Rust on the last two years. The entire team went dry in Wash and NYI.

Rust had 3 goals in the Flyers series.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don’t really think it is fair to judge Rust on the last two years. The entire team went dry in Wash and NYI.

Rust had 3 goals in the Flyers series.

Rust was the lowest scoring Pens forward other than ZAR who played in both of those playoff runs, and like I said in '16-'17 he played ~14 minutes a night when he scored 9 points in 23 playoff games, which is fine but right in line with how Tanev has produced over his career.

Rust's '15-'16 run is looking more like the outlier here. A single run 23 game sample size of producing with fewer minutes than Tanev in the playoffs (from 4 years ago) vs. a 39 game sample size since.

None of this suggests recent playoff production that Tanev isn't a good bet to replace.

 

[Riptide]

Well, you’re arguing completely systems. Maurice used the Tanev line much differently than we would use our bottom six.

My main point is if the argument is Tanev is better suited for a bottom six role than Rusty sure. But, we are paying Tanev, Rust money and term. Just expecting him to be Rust in the top six is stupid. And I think Rust basically being a 20-20 pace guy the past three years is being severely overlooked.

That being said having PK units of Tanev - McCann, Teddy - Rust, Jake - Sid is exciting as ****.

When you play 65% of your icetime with a generational center its getting "severely overlooked" for a good reason.

 

[Ryder71]

I'm looking at one direction because all the arguments other than yours are coming from one direction. I fully agree the team values more than that one direction, but I don't care enough to start bringing up arguments on stuff nobody's even talking about.

But since you've said it, looking at the intangibles doesn't hugely change my mind either because

a) I don't think Rust is an amazing locker room guy - not saying he's bad, but if he was amazing, if he'd turned into a leader, we'd have heard about it and we wouldn't have Rutherford talking up the locker room presence of Bjugstad/Gudbranson and the need for people to grow into being leaders.

b) This team needs hunger more than anything else right now, and Rust was called out by management more than anyone else on that.

c) In terms of what I think they'll do rather than what I'd do, an org that's willing to sacrifice Hags despite his popularity in the room and system fit, is probably willing to sacrifice Rust.

I don't think that's the preferred option but if they get a fair offer in the next week for Rust and not for someone else, then I think they'd go for it. And if he does survive, which I think he will, then I think he needs to find the consistency on ice pretty quick because I simply don't see enough intangibles there to think he can long term justify being the most expensive of a very similar set of players.

I see the HAGS deal as one reason they're more likely to keep Rust. I also believe because he had an expiring contract and had the cap hit he did, that had something to do with that as well. I don't believe you can give up your two fastest skaters if your intention is to play a speed game. That seems rather counter intuitive. The team was stale and it needed a shake up. JR said as much. I'm not so sure he doesn't regret that decision TBH.

And to be clear I'm not trying to change your mind. All I'm suggesting is that the team takes a lot more into consideration than yourself on such matters. And Rust possesses several important qualities and attributes the coach desires in a player. Yes he needs to be more consistent, and yes there are areas to his game he needs to refine. But at his best he can and (has shown previously) he can make a meaningful contribution. If the coaches will wins out here I seriously doubt Rust will be the one to go.

 

[Gurglesons]

When you play 65% of your icetime with a generational center its getting "severely overlooked" for a good reason.

So do you want McCann there also?

 

[Shady Machine]

Team Rust all the way. I think he's going to have a bounce back year and think Gally-Malkin-Rust can be a pretty sweet 2nd line if Gally gets some chemistry with Geno.

Jake-Sid-Kahun
Gally-Malkin-Rust
Simon-Bjug-Horny
McCann-Blueger-ZAR

Why did we need Tanev and the related cap issues?

 

[dogthateats]

Ranking the NHL's top 5 defensive pairings

 

[Gurglesons]

Ranking the NHL's top 5 defensive pairings

Yeah, but Letang gave away a puck once!

 

[Gurglesons]

Team Rust all the way. I think he's going to have a bounce back year and think Gally-Malkin-Rust can be a pretty sweet 2nd line if Gally gets some chemistry with Geno.

Jake-Sid-Kahun
Gally-Malkin-Rust
Simon-Bjug-Horny
McCann-Blueger-ZAR

Why did we need Tanev and the related cap issues?

Not sure he needs to bounce back. Rust scored at a 35 point ES pace this year while being shuffled around the line-up. Last year was a 36 point ES pace.

Landeskog and Pasta last year part of the “best lines in hockey” score at a 50ish ES pace rate as third wheels.

I’d love to have one of those players in place of Rust, but let’s be honest. It’s not like Rust is some weak link here that needs to be improved on. Sid and Jake just had their best years ever or in forever with him playing the majority of his time there.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Ranking the NHL's top 5 defensive pairings

Their GF% in that amount of TOI is ridiculous, esp given how disinterested the entire F group was in our own end this year.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Ranking the NHL's top 5 defensive pairings

This is why I disagree when people say how bad the Penguins defense is. No, their top pair is elite and their 3rd pair is great as long as Pettersson is on it. Their 2nd pair is a problem, but the biggest problem with the defense is related to systematic problems. Even the article says the Penguins are "thin on defense". No, they have a bad 2nd pair, that's it.

That's why I'm kinda disappointed that Martin didn't get a head coaching job elsewhere, I think he's one of the prime guys responsible for the defensive gaffes the Penguins have had in the last 2 years. If all of your defensemen are making stupid pinches and giving up odd-man breaks, the problem is that they're being told to make those stupid pinches.

 

[Peat]

Any talk of a bounceback for Rust should be less around individual numbers and more about consistency, work rate, and being one of the best choices as a third wheel - those are the things driving criticism, not his scoring, which was by most standards fine for his usage and pay cheque.

I see the HAGS deal as one reason they're more likely to keep Rust. I also believe because he had an expiring contract and had the cap hit he did, that had something to do with that as well. I don't believe you can give up your two fastest skaters if your intention is to play a speed game. That seems rather counter intuitive. The team was stale and it needed a shake up. JR said as much. I'm not so sure he doesn't regret that decision TBH.

And to be clear I'm not trying to change your mind. All I'm suggesting is that the team takes a lot more into consideration than yourself on such matters. And Rust possesses several important qualities and attributes the coach desires in a player. Yes he needs to be more consistent, and yes there are areas to his game he needs to refine. But at his best he can and (has shown previously) he can make a meaningful contribution. If the coaches will wins out here I seriously doubt Rust will be the one to go.

What I think about and what I talk about are two different things - I do think about the off-ice stuff quite a lot, and I'd suggest I'm generally far more likely to be found invoking intangibles than most people here. I'm not going to bring it up, but I do think about it. And I'm thinking about it now.

When I look at Rust's intangibles, I don't buy that he's anything other than expendable personally, and I think he's pretty high up on the list of players Rutherford's willing to lose to clear cap (which isn't necessarily a sign of disliking a player). And Rutherford's opinion is more important than Sully's here - and I think both are less important than the market in general, because whichever player on the expendable list gets the best offer is probably the one that goes regardless of any other considerations, as we're unlikely to get multiple good offers.

This is why I disagree when people say how bad the Penguins defense is. No, their top pair is elite and their 3rd pair is great as long as Pettersson is on it. Their 2nd pair is a problem, but the biggest problem with the defense is related to systematic problems. Even the article says the Penguins are "thin on defense". No, they have a bad 2nd pair, that's it.

That's why I'm kinda disappointed that Martin didn't get a head coaching job elsewhere, I think he's one of the prime guys responsible for the defensive gaffes the Penguins have had in the last 2 years. If all of your defensemen are making stupid pinches and giving up odd-man breaks, the problem is that they're being told to make those stupid pinches.

I don't think it's Martin telling the dmen to pinch all the time.

 

[Riptide]

The argument that you Soggy and Riptide are making is that Rust is impacted negatively by playing with Sid and Malkin which is just BS to me.

What the f*** are you talking about? All I'm saying (and I'm sure others, but I'll let them speak for themselves) is that if you're going to bring up Rust's "better production" (which you've done consistently) you cannot do so without also bringing up the obvious advantage Rust has in terms of playing a significant amount of his ice time with generational centers vs a regular 3c.

What do you really think Rust produces if he's playing with Bonino or Bjugstad or Lowry for 65% of his icetime (or 89.5% like Tanev did)? Odds are very good that he's not playing at a 20g/40pt clip.

 

[Riptide]

I hate these types of arguments. I was it was 1996 and salaries didn’t matter, but the cap is a reality and giving a player that likely is a fourth line wing here that contract is asinine.

I think very few of us will debate that Tanev isn’t an effective bottom six forward.

Meh no different then Rust seeing a bunch of time there last season/post season.

 

[Riptide]

Good look. It helps that Frolik's salary is only $3M.

JJ → Calgary ; Frolik → Pittsburgh
Pittsburgh gains $1.05M in cap

Frolik → some team @50% ; picks → Pittsburgh


aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that basically does the same thing as just sending JJ to WBS...


So, the Pens would just have to not retain much or any salary to make that a winning series of trades.

However PIT would be off the hook in 12 months vs having to deal with JJ in WBS in 12 months and still needing to trade him. That said he'll be a lot easier to trade next summer when he only has 3 years at 3.25m with 8.25m in total salary being owed to him.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Team Rust all the way. I think he's going to have a bounce back year and think Gally-Malkin-Rust can be a pretty sweet 2nd line if Gally gets some chemistry with Geno.

Jake-Sid-Kahun
Gally-Malkin-Rust
Simon-Bjug-Horny
McCann-Blueger-ZAR

Why did we need Tanev and the related cap issues?

Exactly what I've been touting

There are like 5 guys that are pretty interchangeable in that lineup: Kahun, Rust, Simon, McCann, Blu.
Mix and match and we'd be fine

But I'm glad we signed the critical 4th liner on the 2nd day of FA at the expense of getting a deal done with an important RFA and shipping out a depth F (Rust)

 

[Coastal Kev]

Team Rust all the way. I think he's going to have a bounce back year and think Gally-Malkin-Rust can be a pretty sweet 2nd line if Gally gets some chemistry with Geno.

Jake-Sid-Kahun
Gally-Malkin-Rust
Simon-Bjug-Horny
McCann-Blueger-ZAR

Why did we need Tanev and the related cap issues?

Possibly the worst line combinations I have seen. Simon over McCann and or Tanev??

 

[Riptide]

Possibly the worst line combinations I have seen. Simon over McCann and or Tanev??

On that line with those linemates, absolutely. You need someone there who can make plays to help create offense. Guentzel isn't going there, so that leaves Kahun (from what we've heard of him) or Simon. McCann and Tanev do not have the vision to create much offensively. Love both as players, but asking them to be in that role is asking for trouble. Not really sure Simon is up for being the best player on his line in regards to that either, but we don't exactly have all that many options.

 

[Shady Machine]

Possibly the worst line combinations I have seen. Simon over McCann and or Tanev??

It's not Simon OVER them. It's about building the best lines and IMO, those are the best lines.

 

[Andy99]

Team Rust all the way. I think he's going to have a bounce back year and think Gally-Malkin-Rust can be a pretty sweet 2nd line if Gally gets some chemistry with Geno.

Jake-Sid-Kahun
Gally-Malkin-Rust
Simon-Bjug-Horny
McCann-Blueger-ZAR

Why did we need Tanev and the related cap issues?

See, if Bjug is playing 3C we only have two true RWs...that means someone in the top 9 will be playing on his off wing...the team already stated that “Gally” will be playing RW and based on where he shoots from successfully, that’s the correct answer...so I don’t know why people keep penciling him in at LW... everything says he will and should be playing RW...there will be no AG-G- Rust line...L2 will be McCann/ZAR/Tanev/Simon/Kahun - Geno- AG

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm going to be sad when the Penguins enter next season with this top-9:

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
Galchenyuk-Malkin-Hornqvist
Simon-McCann-Kahun
Tanev-Blueger-ZAR

They'll inexplicably keep Rust over Bjugstad, move McCann back to center and keep GCR together.

 

[Shady Machine]

See, if Bjug is playing 3C we only have two true RWs...that means someone in the top 9 will be playing on his off wing...the team already stated that “Gally” will be playing RW and based on where he shoots from successfully, that’s the correct answer...so I don’t know why people keep penciling him in at LW... everything says he will and should be playing RW...there will be no AG-G- Rust line...L2 will be McCann/ZAR/Tanev/Simon/Kahun - Geno- AG

I thought Kahun played some RW and who said Gally would be playing right wing? I know it was mentioned, I think by JR, but that doesn't mean it's a guarantee or anything.

Anyway, if it's Gally on RW, then I want McCann with Geno.

 

[Ryder71]

Any talk of a bounceback for Rust should be less around individual numbers and more about consistency, work rate, and being one of the best choices as a third wheel - those are the things driving criticism, not his scoring, which was by most standards fine for his usage and pay cheque.



What I think about and what I talk about are two different things - I do think about the off-ice stuff quite a lot, and I'd suggest I'm generally far more likely to be found invoking intangibles than most people here. I'm not going to bring it up, but I do think about it. And I'm thinking about it now.

When I look at Rust's intangibles, I don't buy that he's anything other than expendable personally, and I think he's pretty high up on the list of players Rutherford's willing to lose to clear cap (which isn't necessarily a sign of disliking a player). And Rutherford's opinion is more important than Sully's here - and I think both are less important than the market in general, because whichever player on the expendable list gets the best offer is probably the one that goes regardless of any other considerations, as we're unlikely to get multiple good offers.



I don't think it's Martin telling the dmen to pinch all the time.

Regardless on if we agree or disagree (and I believe in most cases we do see things similarly), I really enjoy debating such matters with you. Your presentation in conveying your opinion and providing evidence to support those opinions is nearly flawless. Not that you need me to validate you, but I think the way you handle yourself here is a credit to this forum.