Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - I'd rather be your cocoon

[JTG]

I have zero doubt JR will be able to retool pieces of this roster to maximize it. What I worry about is that the pieces needed to be shipped out are not healthy when it is time to do it. I don't know where to find the place for those charts that compare player productivity, but I'm sure there are 2 or 3 swaps that could be made that are reasonable that will completely change the team.

In terms of backup goaltenders if the team decides to move on from Murray, Crawford makes a ton of sense, and I don't think standing behind a Chicago squad as they retool is something he'd be too into at 35 years old. At least with Crawford you're bringing in a guy who has backstopped a team to a Cup and knows what it takes. I also think he's good enough to play 30-40 games, if necessary.

 

[SprootsMasterFlex]

I have zero doubt JR will be able to retool pieces of this roster to maximize it. What I worry about is that the pieces needed to be shipped out are not healthy when it is time to do it. I don't know where to find the place for those charts that compare player productivity, but I'm sure there are 2 or 3 swaps that could be made that are reasonable that will completely change the team.

In terms of backup goaltenders if the team decides to move on from Murray, Crawford makes a ton of sense, and I don't think standing behind a Chicago squad as they retool is something he'd be too into at 35 years old. At least with Crawford you're bringing in a guy who has backstopped a team to a Cup and knows what it takes. I also think he's good enough to play 30-40 games, if necessary.

Nope, Crawford is not the answer. trust me.... this comes from a friend who is very close to Corey on a personal level.

 

[molon labe]

I feel like this is a pretty big distinction between what I said (which I think was wrong in hindsight) and what others are saying here. If they trade Murray and don't bring back a suitable 1B goalie capable of platooning with Jarry, it's a bad decision. People in here have advocated with running with a Jarry-DeSmith tandem, which is a bad decision.

Now, if you trade Murray, sign Greiss in free agency and run with a Jarry-Greiss tandem next year, I could be convinced that would be the best decision. I'm just skeptical that you'd see any substantial cap benefit by doing that. If you trade Murray for futures, sign Greiss in free agency for $4 million a year and run with a Jarry-Greiss tandem, I could be convinced. I'm just skeptical that can end up working.

Is San Jose desperate enough to retain on Jones?

Jones (5.75 through '24) has played terribly and is the focus of a lot of negative press. Jones @ 3-3.5? That dude is just as capable of catching lightning in a bottle as any NHL goalie and has done so a couple times. Assuming of course that SJ would go that far (which they might with a projected cap raise and win-now mentality). I think he'd be a damn fine 1B guy. He's also (historically) like a .920 guy in the playoffs.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Is San Jose desperate enough to retain on Jones?

Jones (5.75 through '24) has played terribly and is the focus of a lot of negative press. Jones @ 3-3.5? That dude is just as capable of catching lightning in a bottle as any NHL goalie and has done so a couple times. Assuming of course that SJ would go that far (which they might with a projected cap raise and win-now mentality). I think he'd be a damn fine 1B guy. He's also (historically) like a .920 guy in the playoffs.

You don’t need to go that risky to get a 1B goaltender who is in bad form and signed long term even if there was retention.

 

[Andy99]

OH!!!!!!

Well, Damn @Peat you know @Andy99 is crazy to suggest just giving a 6mil bridge deal for the helluhvet.

I agree with you 100000%, if MM doesn't totally win the net back, then I'm moving forward with Jarry/whoever Murray can't outplay.

I'm not keeping him on a bridge deal. Seems like a great way to throw away money and just tread water with goalie controversy for a couple more years. Screw it. Make your gamble (which could be signing big and for term I guess) and go with it.

I love how my views are constantly being misrepresented....my position is premised on both Jarry playing reasonably well this year and Murray rebounding somewhat but not sucking as bad as he is now, which I think will happen...all I’m saying is that Murray would take a reasonable one year deal to get to UFA if he ends the year not the starter or not having great numbers...he’d do that to up his value on a long term deal...meanwhile, we can sign Jarry to a 3 year bridge deal that’s reasonable and extend this competition into next year to see if Jarry can keep it up...because goaltending in general can be volatile...this kicks the decision that needs to be made on Murray and Jarry down the road for another year and I’m all for that..

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah, I'd pass on Jones because that's way too much of a gamble for my liking. You know how 11 bad games for Murray has thrown some into a tizzy on here? Jones has been doing that for like 2 years now.

If they're trading for a goalie, I want that goalie to be dirt cheap. If the 1B goalie is going to be making $3+ million, I'd sooner just sign Khudobin in free agency and save the assets.

 

[Andy99]

I feel like this is a pretty big distinction between what I said (which I think was wrong in hindsight) and what others are saying here. If they trade Murray and don't bring back a suitable 1B goalie capable of platooning with Jarry, it's a bad decision. People in here have advocated with running with a Jarry-DeSmith tandem, which is a bad decision.

Now, if you trade Murray, sign Greiss in free agency and run with a Jarry-Greiss tandem next year, I could be convinced that would be the best decision. I'm just skeptical that you'd see any substantial cap benefit by doing that. If you trade Murray for futures, sign Greiss in free agency for $4 million a year and run with a Jarry-Greiss tandem, I could be convinced. I'm just skeptical that can end up working.

I’d like that too...not sure we wouldn’t have to overpay to get Greiss or Lehner here but I’m for that as well...don’t think that’s as cost effective as it might be to get Murray to take a cheaper one year deal to improve his value

 

[Tom Hanks]

I love how my views are constantly being misrepresented....my position is premised on both Jarry playing reasonably well this year and Murray rebounding somewhat but not sucking as bad as he is now, which I think will happen...all I’m saying is that Murray would take a reasonable one year deal to get to UFA if he ends the year not the starter or not having great numbers...he’d do that to up his value on a long term deal...meanwhile, we can sign Jarry to a 3 year bridge deal that’s reasonable and extend this competition into next year to see if Jarry can keep it up...because goaltending in general can be volatile...this kicks the decision that needs to be made on Murray and Jarry down the road for another year and I’m all for that..

I don’t think JR would give Murray a one year deal that takes him to UFA

 

[Peat]

I love how my views are constantly being misrepresented....my position is premised on both Jarry playing reasonably well this year and Murray rebounding somewhat but not sucking as bad as he is now, which I think will happen...all I’m saying is that Murray would take a reasonable one year deal to get to UFA if he ends the year not the starter or not having great numbers...he’d do that to up his value on a long term deal...meanwhile, we can sign Jarry to a 3 year bridge deal that’s reasonable and extend this competition into next year to see if Jarry can keep it up...because goaltending in general can be volatile...this kicks the decision that needs to be made on Murray and Jarry down the road for another year and I’m all for that..

But if you just want Jarry insurance, why wouldn't you just trade Murray and get good asset value, then acquire a cheaper 1B to hold the fort and give us more cap space?

 

[Randy Butternubs]

The goalie unrestricted free agent list doesn't look so grand:

Browse - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

 

[Riptide]

I agree mostly, but to only take a 2 year bridge deal 3.0/4.0 is really nothing and is totally fair considering DeSmith is 1.250 for a couple more.

Jarry would be pushing for more years, and rightfully so. That would see him with a lower cap hit and could still top out at 3.0.

Either way, Murray at 6.0 would still have them over 8.0 and one of them has to go. Even if Murray won the cup for them again I'd choose Jarry for cap savings moving forward. We'd have maxed out this cores use, and you won't be trading Crosby, Malkin or Letang.

Obviously this all rides on Jarry's keeping his status quo as you said.

If Murray was good enough to backstop us to another cup there's no chance he's going anywhere. Rutherford would in that situation almost certainly move Jarry.

 

[Andy99]

I don’t think JR would give Murray a one year deal that takes him to UFA

I agree..I’m worried about that too but that’s what he should do unless he can get another starter in FA...

 

[Andy99]

But if you just want Jarry insurance, why wouldn't you just trade Murray and get good asset value, then acquire a cheaper 1B to hold the fort and give us more cap space?

As I said, I agree with that assuming we can get someone like Greiss or Lehner but that might be difficult or a more expensive option...I’m just suggesting if the team is not sure they’re ready to cut ties with Murray, they don’t actually have to give him a long term deal...use their leverage with him as a RFA to wait another year...no harm

 

[Riptide]

Because I don’t think they’ll be enough time to say Jarry is our starter for the next year +...why not give the Jarry and Murray more time before you make that decision...we’ve seen goalies vary significantly from year to year...they can be 1A and 1B like the Isles and like Boston does and that allows the team to be in no hurry to make a possibly bad decision for the next year or two

Do you really believe that Matt Murray is willingly going to sign a 2 yr deal? And do you really believe that the team will give him one? He has 1 RFA year left and will be 26 later this season. About the shortest contract I see him signing is 4-5 years. That or he says F it and goes to arbitration and gets a 1 yr deal that takes him to FA. I see no in-between, mainly because it doesn't make sense to Murray to sign anything else.

I mean do you really think it benefits MM to sign for 2 years and be a 1A/1B goalie as he's approaching FA? If that's the case he might as well go to arbitration, get a 1 yr deal and be a FA in July 2021. And he can be a 1A/1B guy all of 20/21.

Basically when it comes to MM, I think we're going to have to make a decision this summer based on what we've seen this season and either give him a decent deal with term or move him and bet on Jarry. And I have a pretty good feeling as to where Rutherford will go (MM).

As I said, I agree with that assuming we can get someone like Greiss or Lehner but that might be difficult or a more expensive option...I’m just suggesting if the team is not sure they’re ready to cut ties with Murray, they don’t actually have to give him a long term deal...use their leverage with him as a RFA to wait another year...no harm

Then he's a UFA and we have zero leverage. And if Jarry doesn't pan out Murray could hold us to account to get the type of deal everyone is afraid to give him now, and JR would have far fewer options.

I for some reason, thought the expansion draft was Summer 2020, but it's 2021.

I would hang on to Murray, depending on how bad/good he does this season and then either try to sign him to a 2yr deal at 3.5m and give Jarry the same type of deal, then give Murray the first month of the 2020-21 season to see if he can bounce back, if he doesn't, it's been a treat, enjoy your new life elsewhere.

MM would decline that and go to arbitration where he would get a 1 yr award (likely in the 4.5/5m range) and then would be a UFA in July 2021.

Basically there's almost no chance in hell we're getting MM signed to a 2 yr deal. Maybe 3-4 years if we're lucky, but I think it's most likely either a 5-7 yr deal or a 1 yr deal. I do not think that there's an in-between option here... unless we're willing to pay so much money that it would kill our cap.

 

[Andy99]

Do you really believe that Matt Murray is willingly going to sign a 2 yr deal? And do you really believe that the team will give him one? He has 1 RFA year left and will be 26 later this season. About the shortest contract I see him signing is 4-5 years. That or he says F it and goes to arbitration and gets a 1 yr deal that takes him to FA. I see no in-between, mainly because it doesn't make sense to Murray to sign anything else.

I mean do you really think it benefits MM to sign for 2 years and be a 1A/1B goalie as he's approaching FA? If that's the case he might as well go to arbitration, get a 1 yr deal and be a FA in July 2021. And he can be a 1A/1B guy all of 20/21.

Basically when it comes to MM, I think we're going to have to make a decision this summer based on what we've seen this season and either give him a decent deal with term or move him and bet on Jarry. And I have a pretty good feeling as to where Rutherford will go (MM).

Agree that he won’t willingly take a two year deal...it’s only two years if the team chooses that option if it goes to arbitration but he will take a one year deal, as I’ve said, if his value is low after the season, a la Schultz...and that may be in the best interest of the team unless they have a good UFA option and he’s got value in a trade...

what I think will happen is that JR gives him a 5-6 year deal...I just think unless he turns his season around and we go far in the POs with him winning games, that that will be a mistake...but that’s JR for you..

 

[Riptide]

Agree that he won’t willingly take a two year deal...it’s only two years if the team chooses that option if it goes to arbitration but he will take a one year deal, as I’ve said, if his value is low after the season, a la Schultz...and that may be in the best interest of the team unless they have a good UFA option and he’s got value in a trade...

what I think will happen is that JR gives him a 5-6 year deal...I just think unless he turns his season around and we go far in the POs with him winning games, that that will be a mistake...but that’s JR for you..

That's not even an option at this point. He has 1 RFA season left and thus can only receive a 1 yr award.

Even if MM struggles there's always such a crunch for goaltending that as long as his AAV is low enough (aka in the 6m range - and unless he really picks it up he's not getting much more than that), he will still be tradeable down the line even if he struggles a little. A GM desperate for goaltending will look at his resume, what he's dealt with and take a gamble on that.

 

[Andy99]

That's not even an option at this point. He has 1 RFA season left and thus can only receive a 1 yr award.

ok fine then...no need to make a long term decision on him...why tie your hands...if there’s no amazing trade offer for him, or a goalie they want or can sign in FA, give him a one year offer..and give him another year to turn things around...or not...meanwhile sign Jarry to three years...he can be expendable to Seattle if need be and things don’t work out

 

[Tom Hanks]

I agree..I’m worried about that too but that’s what he should do unless he can get another starter in FA...

He should definitely not sign Murray to a one year deal. Either he’s the starter or he’s traded to someone who will give a long term deal.

 

[Tom Hanks]

double post

 

[Riptide]

I believe he will as well. I'm just not 100% convinced yet. And in our current situation we really don't have to do anything right now. Which works in the teams favor. We got a very nice 1-2-3 punch in goal. Jarry looks tremendous and was fairly highly touted coming out of the WHL. Initially we had higher hopes in him over MM TBH. Maybe he ends up being the better goalie. But again we aren't in any rush to conclude anything.

Depends on how you define "rush". We have to sort it out and make a decision by the summer.

 

[Andy99]

That's not even an option at this point. He has 1 RFA season left and thus can only receive a 1 yr award.

Even if MM struggles there's always such a crunch for goaltending that as long as his AAV is low enough (aka in the 6m range - and unless he really picks it up he's not getting much more than that), he will still be tradeable down the line even if he struggles a little. A GM desperate for goaltending will look at his resume, what he's dealt with and take a gamble on that.

No, a long term deal for Murray playing as he is now is fatal...and $6 mil is too much for him rn..you can’t count on it being tradeable...the team might have to give up an asset to Seattle to take him...that’s as bad as giving JJ a 5 year deal at a low AAV...

 

[Andy99]

Depends on how you define "rush". We have to sort it out and make a decision by the summer.

disagree...we have another year to kick it down the can if the team wants...

 

[Riptide]

disagree...we have another year to kick it down the can if the team wants...

Yes... and no. You kick this decision out for another season and you run the risk of MM saying F it and deciding to test FA in July 2021, regardless of how things play out with Jarry. Now if Jarry pans out and can carry the load that's not the end of the world - other than the fact that you're likely getting pennies on MMs current value as a pending FA should you decide to trade MM to try and salvage some of his value. However if Jarry doesn't show he can be a starter over the 20/21 season then MM saying F it and deciding to test FA is a big issue for us.

Fortunately it's one that I do not see Rutherford putting us in. He'll almost certainly give MM a long term contract this summer, keep Jarry and if Jarry takes the reigns this season/next season will then go about moving Murray to open the way for Jarry and to free up cap space.

 

[Riptide]

No, a long term deal for Murray playing as he is now is fatal...and $6 mil is too much for him rn..you can’t count on it being tradeable...the team might have to give up an asset to Seattle to take him...that’s as bad as giving JJ a 5 year deal at a low AAV...

I see few reasons to believe that MM will continue playing like this for the rest of the season. He might not be a top 10 goalie in terms of numbers like he was last season, but I think it's a fairly safe assumption that he's also not a 29/31st ranked goalie like his current numbers state.

 

[Pens1566]

No, a long term deal for Murray playing as he is now is fatal...and $6 mil is too much for him rn..you can’t count on it being tradeable...the team might have to give up an asset to Seattle to take him...that’s as bad as giving JJ a 5 year deal at a low AAV...

No. You just protect Jarry instead. I guarantee, short of MM becoming the reincarnation of Dan Cloutier, if he's left unprotected for the expansion draft that he'd be picked up. Assuming he's extended in some way.