Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - I got a faulty parachute

[ZeroPucksGiven]

What if a team came to you offering a legitimate top-6 F for him right now? Or that + a couple draft picks? Or a borderline top-pairing D who is surely top-4?

Would that be enough to run a Jarry/CDS tandem? Gives you knowledge that your goalie tandem comes cheap for the next 2-3 years, that the Seattle draft becomes less of an issue, and allows you to either retain Schultz/Gally or get them replaced.

If that magically landed on the table (because it's not likely since goalies don't hold much value and no team is gonna offer that) I'd probably say no to the trade. MM makes an appropriate amount of money relative to his performance. And I'm going to assume the player coming back makes an equal amount of salary to MM

Now if there was a cost controlled CHEAP top 4 Dman coming back I'd pull that trigger

 

[Louis Hensler]

Yeh I agree. I think it would be better to hold on to Murray and get Jarry more starts. Try to get his compete level back up through that goalie competition rather than deal him when his value is low.

Definitely would like to see more of Jarry in any event.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

A- Murray is an unknown over the course of a regular season as well. All we know is that he's as prone to injury as the rest of the team, and prone to be streaky (usual for a younger goalie).

B- The cap space created from a Murray deal, and offensive/defensive piece coming back is what you bank on helps alleviate any growing pains of having a CDS/Jarry tandem - or whomever in net.

This team does not rely on it's goalie as much as some other teams/systems do. We are prone to high-percentage chances, sure - but we don't sit back and play defense /absorb shots all game either. What we would need as a replacement is just a goalie(s) who can give us a consistent effort to count on. Currently MM is that guy (sorta) - but if he's that guy making 8M we're taking a step back as a team imo. At least until the cap goes up.

A. I think Murray's good enough to win games way more often than he's given credit for. Even recently, when he's been bad, he gives up a stinker or two but still ends up only allowing those two goals. I agree that he's been a bit of a rollercoaster since the back to back Cups, but not nearly as dramatic as some people are making it out to be. He's got to be better, for sure, and I'm not super sold on him moving forward due to his inconsistency and injury woes. That doesn't really matter though, because he is this team's goalie, and I would be absolutely stunned if they moved him and committed to Jarry for the foreseeable future. Not saying it's the right or wrong call, but Murray will be re-signed. I'd bet my forum name on it.

B. I mean, yeah, Murray could probably bring us back a pretty good return. But again, that's about as useful an idea to kick around as dealing someone like Jake, imo. For better or worse, neither are seen as anything but untouchable in the eyes of this organization, regardless of what we believe as fans. I'm not sure that I'm positive Jarry would be a huge downgrade, but the fact that it's even questionable is exactly why it won't happen.

I hope Murray and his camp don't bend JR over, because they hold all the cards, imo. I'm not really excited to see how that situation plays out.

In any event, it wouldn't hurt to play Jarry more often over the rest of this season, imo. Gives us a good look at the kid at the NHL level, with more an eye on goalie tandem as opposed to backup. It also helps keep Murray healthy/fresh for the run down the stretch.

 

[Hamurai]

Murray isn't Bjugstad.

His value might not be astronomical - but looking ahead to the Summer, there's only one other full-time starter who can be qualified as a 'top-10' starter available [Holtby], and even then Holtby is UFA and MM is RFA. Any team who's looking for a #1 goalie over the long term would be all over MM....and he'd probably create a bidding war if it were made public, driving his price right back up.

The post I was responding to a post saying he was average. Also the article wasn’t saying what his value would be in the summer.

If you want to talk about his value at the draft, I liked the comparison that sealbound had with schneider. Though if we genuinely believe he is a top 10 goalie I don’t see why the pens move him at all.

 

[molon labe]

If that magically landed on the table (because it's not likely since goalies don't hold much value and no team is gonna offer that) I'd probably say no to the trade. MM makes an appropriate amount of money relative to his performance. And I'm going to assume the player coming back makes an equal amount of salary to MM

Now if there was a cost controlled CHEAP top 4 Dman coming back I'd pull that trigger

I think you'd be surprised. MM, imo, absolutely brings back a legitimate top-6 F / top-4 D. His money right now is great. Next year? That's what I've got an issue with. I've always hated the idea of paying goalies 6M+. It rarely, if ever, works out for the team. Hank? Price? Bob? Your top guys aren't difference makers for 90%+ of the game/season. You can argue for that extra push, but is that extra push better than a serviceable goalie + another top forward? Or serviceable goalie + a better defensive corps? Subjective I think.

Goalies in general don't bring back a ton of value, but a lesser Schneider brought back a top-10 pick. Mid 1st rounders are about the value of a top-6 veteran forward tbh... We can also afford to go greater-than value because we have cap space, and could always lump in a weaker player of the same position going out to make cap work. Frankly, that's likely how it would work since we're not trading goalie for goalie - unless of course JR really has his sights set on another 1st rounder.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The post I was responding to a post saying he was average. Also the article wasn’t saying what his value would be in the summer.

If you want to talk about his value at the draft, I liked the comparison that sealbound had with schneider. Though if we genuinely believe he is a top 10 goalie I don’t see why the pens move him at all.

I genuinely believe Murray's as good as anyone when he's at his best. Literally anyone in the league.

The big issue is his inconsistency and injury woes, which keep his "at his best" ratio way below what I would consider a legitimately elite, top-10 goalie.

 

[Hamurai]

Definitely would like to see more of Jarry in any event.

Totally agree there. Would like to see him get ~25-30 starts and right now he’s at about 17.

 

[molon labe]

The post I was responding to a post saying he was average. Also the article wasn’t saying what his value would be in the summer.

If you want to talk about his value at the draft, I liked the comparison that sealbound had with schneider. Though if we genuinely believe he is a top 10 goalie I don’t see why the pens move him at all.

Whispers in the wind stating his value/ask is north of 7M. If that's 7.5, 8, 8.5?-that's when you argue for (or against) moving him.

 

[Hamurai]

Whispers in the wind stating his value/ask is north of 7M. If that's 7.5, 8, 8.5?-that's when you argue for (or against) moving him.

Yes, most definitely. You balance his asking price vs his on ice play vs. what your return would be in a trade.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Whispers in the wind stating his value/ask is north of 7M. If that's 7.5, 8, 8.5?-that's when you argue for (or against) moving him.

I've also heard the team is flirting with offering Schultz Letang-money to stick around. I'd rather give Murray $8 million AAV than give Schultz something north of $7 million, and I really don't want to pay Murray $8 million for a long while.

I don't even want Schultz at $5.5 million.

 

[molon labe]

A. I think Murray's good enough to win games way more often than he's given credit for. Even recently, when he's been bad, he gives up a stinker or two but still ends up only allowing those two goals. I agree that he's been a bit of a rollercoaster since the back to back Cups, but not nearly as dramatic as some people are making it out to be. He's got to be better, for sure, and I'm not super sold on him moving forward due to his inconsistency and injury woes. That doesn't really matter though, because he is this team's goalie, and I would be absolutely stunned if they moved him and committed to Jarry for the foreseeable future. Not saying it's the right or wrong call, but Murray will be re-signed. I'd bet my forum name on it.

B. I mean, yeah, Murray could probably bring us back a pretty good return. But again, that's about as useful an idea to kick around as dealing someone like Jake, imo. For better or worse, neither are seen as anything but untouchable in the eyes of this organization, regardless of what we believe as fans. I'm not sure that I'm positive Jarry would be a huge downgrade, but the fact that it's even questionable is exactly why it won't happen.

I hope Murray and his camp don't bend JR over, because they hold all the cards, imo. I'm not really excited to see how that situation plays out.

In any event, it wouldn't hurt to play Jarry more often over the rest of this season, imo. Gives us a good look at the kid at the NHL level, with more an eye on goalie tandem as opposed to backup. It also helps keep Murray healthy/fresh for the run down the stretch.

Does dealing MM now bring back a better return than keeping him - or trading Jarry before the Seattle expansion? What's the greater impact to the team and organization? DeSmith has proven he can clear waivers, and even if he's the backup leading to the expansion draft I highly doubt he's chosen over one of our young forwards.

I do agree he plays better than what people give him credit for - however my argument is outside of the peanut gallery. My argument against Murray is that he merely goes as the team goes. Last year - we give up league-leading numbers on the breakaway and he has a horrible stretch. We buckle down later in the season and so does he [magically]. This year, he's up and down - gives up a fluke as you pointed out, then locks it down. Ever notice how that usually corresponds to the team blocking more shots late in the game and giving up fewer chances? My argument boils down to a point that Murray is awesome at what he does (something MAF couldn't manage) - and that's doing just enough to stop plays when necessary and marching to the beat of the team...but I don't see his services as being worth anywhere near 8M a year over the long haul. I just don't. You can "downgrade" to Jarry, tell him to do the same stuff, and use all the extra cash to re-sign J Schultz / another top -4 D / another top-6 F and move on. If we're talking 5M /year or taking a chance on Jarry, sure. But 7-8M x 8? He hasn't backpacked the team nearly enough to deserve that kinda dough (from the Pens).

 

[molon labe]

I've also heard the team is flirting with offering Schultz Letang-money to stick around. I'd rather give Murray $8 million AAV than give Schultz something north of $7 million, and I really don't want to pay Murray $8 million for a long while.

I don't even want Schultz at $5.5 million.

Letang's money has only recently been spot on. He plays 75% of the games and makes about 75% of what he would on today's market. Schultz @ Letang money is absolutely absurd. And yeah, between the two of the 'would you rather' scenario, I'd take Murray @ 8 versus Schultz at 8. Doesn't mean either one of those is remotely sensible.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Letang's money has only recently been spot on. He plays 75% of the games and makes about 75% of what he would on today's market. Schultz @ Letang money is absolutely absurd. And yeah, between the two of the 'would you rather' scenario, I'd take Murray @ 8 versus Schultz at 8. Doesn't mean either one of those is remotely sensible.

Agreed, but one is kind of an inevitability (Murray), especially if we don't feed Jarry an increased number of starts for the rest of the year to see what we've really got with the guy.

Does dealing MM now bring back a better return than keeping him - or trading Jarry before the Seattle expansion? What's the greater impact to the team and organization? DeSmith has proven he can clear waivers, and even if he's the backup leading to the expansion draft I highly doubt he's chosen over one of our young forwards.

I do agree he plays better than what people give him credit for - however my argument is outside of the peanut gallery. My argument against Murray is that he merely goes as the team goes. Last year - we give up league-leading numbers on the breakaway and he has a horrible stretch. We buckle down later in the season and so does he [magically]. This year, he's up and down - gives up a fluke as you pointed out, then locks it down. Ever notice how that usually corresponds to the team blocking more shots late in the game and giving up fewer chances? My argument boils down to a point that Murray is awesome at what he does (something MAF couldn't manage) - and that's doing just enough to stop plays when necessary and marching to the beat of the team...but I don't see his services as being worth anywhere near 8M a year over the long haul. I just don't. You can "downgrade" to Jarry, tell him to do the same stuff, and use all the extra cash to re-sign J Schultz / another top -4 D / another top-6 F and move on. If we're talking 5M /year or taking a chance on Jarry, sure. But 7-8M x 8? He hasn't backpacked the team nearly enough to deserve that kinda dough (from the Pens).

I'm not entirely against moving Murray if we get a stud scoring line winger or a stud blueliner for him. I think Jarry's probably capable of backstopping this team, but the fact that it's even up in the air as to whether or not he can is exactly why Murray's getting his big payday, for better or worse.

For me, the issue with Murray has far more to do with his injury woes than his inconsistency. Very, very few goalies are at their best nearly all the time, and nobody's at their best from start to finish each season. Again, if we could somehow land a stud winger for Geno or a stud blueliner (LD) for Marino on that 2nd pairing, I'd be really tempted.

I just don't really see any point to us voicing our opinion on the subject. Again, I would be absolutely astonished if this team didn't get bent over by Murray and his camp this summer, to the tune of something like $45 million+ over 6 years.

 

[ownal]

Who would you rather be stuck with Turris or Backlund?

 

[Andy99]

Of all goalies who played at least 50 games last year, Murray was 8th in GAA and 3rd in SV%:

NHL.com - Stats

you can’t take a snippet in time...you could look at October thru December last year and he’d be one of the worst, and then the best from January to March, and then below average during the POs...look at his overall career since he started as the starting goalie in 2016-17...

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Everybody on the current roster should be on the table except Malkin and Crosby. We have excess in some areas, and a great need for another top-six forward (preferably right handed, preferably who can shoot to make the power play lethal again).

I would prefer not to trade the young, cheap talent like Marino, Pettersson, Jarry, Kahun, Lafferty and McCann.

Roster composition is an issue, and salaries are an issue, but so is the fact that every single forward that JR brings in regresses under Sullivan the moment he arrives. Tanner Pearson wound up on the fourth line here, and he is once again a top-six player in Vancouver (like he was in LA before he hit rock-bottom). Derick Brassard was absolute garbage for us, and he looked completely out of place as a winger here. Now with the Isles, he looks great again and he even looks comfortable on the wing. Ryan Reaves was a very different case, but he too once again looks like the player he was before Sullivan got a hold of him.

SO, I would not blame JR if he felt a little gun-shy right about now. Galchenyuk is on the fourth line and he looks like diminishing returns, just like the others. Nick Bjugstad is a terrible fit for this team and his offensive game has also gone into the toilet. He looks like Riley Sheahan right now.

It is wonderful that McCann looks great and is such a great fit here. It's great that after a shaky start Kahun has gotten going. It is a godsend that Tanev has fit in like a glove. But this team needs offense. Badly. There HAS to be room for another offensive guy who is not necessarily Guy Carbonneau when he does not have the puck. Sullivan has to be more patient with the skilled forwards. It would also help if he gave Lafferty more of a role. The kid has more skill than most up front, and he does not hurt us defensively. And he skates well enough, too. And he plays all three positions. There is no excuse for him to still be the 13th forward.

I keep saying this but Crosby and Malkin are not getting younger (or less prone to injury). To ask them to carry the full load at this stage of their careers is assinine. I understand that Sullivan is playing a far more defensive system now, way more disciplined and he is getting results. Great. But without more easy offense, and without a PP threat, we cannot get out of this division (let alone compete for the Cup).

Whoever JR gets next, hopefully the guy is an 82-game player, too. We really need that.

 

[chethejet]

Murray is a top goalie and certainly will command a big time contract. But the Pens have to consider that in the near future the core is not going to carry the play and not sure paying him top dollar is the best payoff. Now if he takes a bridge deal, yes. Pens need to continue to build the farm and infuse talent into the system. A trade may be something that can be a better bridge to compete than Murray in goal.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

What ever happened to that "investigation" into why the Pens are always so injury prone?

Because that shit was hilarious to read.

 

[JTG]

Pageau can stop scoring goals any time now if we want to sniff adding him at the deadline. He's tied with MFin MacKinnon.

Pageau and Rust. The two of them quite literally shock me every passing game. Two guys who haven't scored a ton and are on absolute tears right now.

 

[Andy99]

What ever happened to that "investigation" into why the Pens are always so injury prone?

Because that **** was hilarious to read.

The investigator slipped and tore his groin...

 

[JTG]

Still think Pens should try and get Fowler. Schultz can go for some forward help and is a UFA.

Dumo-Letang
Fowler-Marino
Petts-Riikola

Fowler would be sweet, but I wouldn't even want to know what it would take to get him.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Pageau won't keep this pace up forever. He'll eventually cool off and stabilize at his norm, which is fine. He's still the best option we could find for our 3C situation. He's a great skater, fast, great on the PK and doesn't shy away from physicality. He's essentially the anti-Bjugstad.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Not that I would cry too much about Pageau or anything but again... why, exactly, does this team always have to have these marquee 3Cs? I'd like to maybe check out what a beefed-out, diesel top six looks like, again.

 

[JTG]

Pageau won't keep this pace up forever. He'll eventually cool off and stabilize at his norm, which is fine. He's still the best option we could find for our 3C situation. He's a great skater, fast, great on the PK and doesn't shy away from physicality. He's essentially the anti-Bjugstad.

If JR could pull off two deals for Bjugstad and Galchenyuk and the players he brings back mesh quickly and are productive, this team can absolutely do it this season. The flashes they have had have been next level team hockey. Cut the fat and bring in some guys who can be good role guys who can score a bit.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If JR could pull off two deals for Bjugstad and Galchenyuk and the players he brings back mesh quickly and are productive, this team can absolutely do it this season. The flashes they have had have been next level team hockey. Cut the fat and bring in some guys who can be good role guys who can score a bit.

I'm still not a fan of Schultz, but I agree. If we were to land something like Pageau and Kreider while trading (not directly for the aforementioned) Bjugs and Galchenyuk, we'd be utterly unstoppable at forward.

Everything hinges on Murray and our blueline though. Even if we made those hypothetical moves.