Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - I got a faulty parachute

[BHD]

When healthy, don't we already have too many NHL forwards?

Yes, and it’s more quantity vs. quality. The team should be looking at other players if Galchenyuk doesn’t work out.

 

[EightyOne]

When healthy, don't we already have too many NHL forwards?

They need a better forward.

(Don't you dare say..well they had Kessel)

 

[SEALBound]

Pageau is making himself look bigger than the part he'll get here anyways. He's their top line C and if anything, great to see for fear of one of Sid or Geno go down and he has to bump up.

I think it would be a good price to pay to have security. They once were looking to pay 6.0 for the position and if Pageau came in around 5.5 I'd be all over that for his services in a important position.

I think that's going to be the case wherever he goes (if he goes). He's rising to the challenge now that he's been giving the opportunity. He's not going to get that opportunity elsewhere. So if you are trading for him, you MUST be going with a pretty darn good drop in production out of him. He's not going to get the best wingers or the best play time on any team that is interested in bringing him in. It's a weird situation for him to be. Great for the Sens because they will likely get more for him but terrible for others because they will need to pay more to bring him in and he's likely not going to produce any more than any other 3C on the market. I think more GMs will be smarter than not and wait to see how his December goes. You got to be thinking that the hot streak will cool down. If it doesn't, then you need to start analyzing why he's having the success. You can't pay the ransom, bring him in, and stick him with two random wings expecting the same success. You need to be set up with similar ice time opportunities and wingers. Otherwise...you could be looking at the next Brassard.

Miller is a decent player, but forward is a bigger priority IMO.

Boy I don't know. If the playoffs were tomorrow and you asked me would you rather upgrade Chucky/Simon or Johnson...I think I would still pick Johnson. I think the forward group has enough there to make it work. Not so much with the defense. Several times sans Sid or Geno, this team was capable of exploding for 7 goals. It's just a matter of whether or not it clicks that game. As good as JJ has been (realistically against expectations), I would still rather upgrade.

Say it's Chucky for Brodie. I'd rather have:

Dumo-Letang
Brodie-Marino
Petts-Schultz

as my playoff defense with:

Jake-Sid-Simon
McCann-Malkin-Rust
Kahun-Bjugs-Horny
ZAR-Bluegs-Tanev

as your forward group. That said, not a hill I'd die on for argument sake. I'd be very happy to upgrade on Simon or Chucky.

Yes, and it’s more quantity vs. quality. The team should be looking at other players if Galchenyuk doesn’t work out.

I do feel like he's perhaps the "linchpin" so to speak. If he warms up, we could be scary good. If not, we have to hope that a 1:1 brings in someone who can click with us ala Perron for Hagelin.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Maybe chill with the Brodie proposals. I'm obviously hoping he'll be able to return to an NHL career, but you never know.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

We have lots of forwards but still holes at forward, imo. The 3C spot could be improved. Sid-Jake could use a bonafide winger if Kahun doesn't work out there. Geno-Rust needs a guy with a scoring punch. Galchenyuk's pretty terrible, sadly. ZAR as well, I'd rather give Lafferty his spot and allow the kid to grow and get comfortable at the NHL level.

 

[Louis Hensler]

Yes, and it’s more quantity vs. quality. The team should be looking at other players if Galchenyuk doesn’t work out.

Well I certainly can't argue that Chucky hasn't been a disappointment so far, but I could make a straight-faced argument that Schultz's inconsistency has been a bigger problem. I ignored it last year because he was coming off a major injury, but it's starting to look like the new normal.

 

[Andy99]

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[Louis Hensler]

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I'll say this -- if the Pens are to compete for another Cup, Murray has to be better.

 

[SEALBound]

I'll say this -- if the Pens are to compete for another Cup, Murray has to be better.

Needs to get hot at the right time. Every goalie on a cup team in recent memory has been hot for their team. Its that little extra bit that puts you over the tops. So many things need to come together to win, I don't think people appreciate how special and lucky a cup win truly is.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I've been watching Murray with a much more wary eye this year but I still have confidence that his focus and top game will be present when the playoffs roll around.

Uh... assuming that they do.

 

[Hamurai]

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The destinations in the article don’t make much sense. You’re not trading Murray in division, the sharks couldn’t afford him without sending cap back.

Minnesota could make some sense, but the author didn’t include any proposed return, so whats the point?

 

[SEALBound]

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Not advocating for it but there's certainly an intellectual conversation to be had there. I used the Cory Schneider move to judge value. 1st round pick and Vancouver got Bo Horvat who by all counts was impactful right away. If you could get a similar wing and the $6mil or so in cap space...what does that do for the team overall? Would allow you to keep Schultz...or Chucky...or bring in a similar player. Or you can go with a Lehner as a duel starter thing.

Jake-Sid-Bo Horvat (you know what I'm saying)
McCann-Geno-Rust
Kahun-Bleuger-Horny
ZAR-Lafferty-Tanev

Dumo-Letang
Vatanen-Marino
Petts-Schultz

TJ/CDS or TJ/RL

 

[Andy99]

Not advocating for it but there's certainly an intellectual conversation to be had there. I used the Cory Schneider move to judge value. 1st round pick and Vancouver got Bo Horvat who by all counts was impactful right away. If you could get a similar wing and the $6mil or so in cap space...what does that do for the team overall? Would allow you to keep Schultz...or Chucky...or bring in a similar player. Or you can go with a Lehner as a duel starter thing.

Jake-Sid-Bo Horvat (you know what I'm saying)
McCann-Geno-Rust
Kahun-Bleuger-Horny
ZAR-Lafferty-Tanev

Dumo-Letang
Vatanen-Marino
Petts-Schultz

TJ/CDS or TJ/RL

Agree that there’s a good argument for it depending on the return...I still think JR is more likely to sign him for too much than he is to trade him...

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The issue with approaching a Murray trade is this; we just don't have any idea how Jarry and/or DeSmith hold up as starters over the course of a full NHL season+playoffs.

If we want to part with Murray, which I think is foolish, we're going to be leaving the last several years of the Sid/Geno/Letang era up to huge, huge question marks in goal.

Yeah, Murray's been inconsistent. But for as bad as he can be at times, he can also be an elite goalie, top-10 in the game at his best. We know what he can be, we know he's capable of backstopping a team to a Cup. With Jarry (and DeSmith, I guess), there are huge unknowns.

If I had to go on record, I'd say there's virtually zero chance Murray isn't re-signed, and likely for more than we would like, both term and AAV-wise. The Penguins just won't take a chance like going with Jarry moving forward, I don't think any team would. Even if they think they can get a big return for Murray.

 

[Andy99]

People just throw out that Murray is an elite goaltender or in the top 10 without thinking, but he really isn’t...go look at the #s, Vezina voting or whatever attempted objective standard you want to, but none of them point to him being more than average since the Cup runs

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Didn't he go on some crazy streak last year?

Consistency has been a problem but Murray at his highs is definitely in the top tier, IMO.

But of course one could argue with quite a lot of conviction that a big part of what makes you elite is consistency.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Didn't he go on some crazy streak last year?

Consistency has been a problem but Murray at his highs is definitely in the top tier, IMO.

But of course one could argue with quite a lot of conviction that a big part of what makes you elite is consistency.

Yep. If he was consistently at his best, he'd be due to make way more money than we could/should pay him.

I'm just saying that when he's at his best, he's as good as anyone in the league right now. But again, like you said, it's the consistency thing.

I don't think it matters though. He'll be re-signed, right or wrong, and that's that. People may as well make their peace with it.

 

[molon labe]

The issue with approaching a Murray trade is this; we just don't have any idea how Jarry and/or DeSmith hold up as starters over the course of a full NHL season+playoffs.

If we want to part with Murray, which I think is foolish, we're going to be leaving the last several years of the Sid/Geno/Letang era up to huge, huge question marks in goal.

Yeah, Murray's been inconsistent. But for as bad as he can be at times, he can also be an elite goalie, top-10 in the game at his best. We know what he can be, we know he's capable of backstopping a team to a Cup. With Jarry (and DeSmith, I guess), there are huge unknowns.

If I had to go on record, I'd say there's virtually zero chance Murray isn't re-signed, and likely for more than we would like, both term and AAV-wise. The Penguins just won't take a chance like going with Jarry moving forward, I don't think any team would. Even if they think they can get a big return for Murray.

A- Murray is an unknown over the course of a regular season as well. All we know is that he's as prone to injury as the rest of the team, and prone to be streaky (usual for a younger goalie).

B- The cap space created from a Murray deal, and offensive/defensive piece coming back is what you bank on helps alleviate any growing pains of having a CDS/Jarry tandem - or whomever in net.

This team does not rely on it's goalie as much as some other teams/systems do. We are prone to high-percentage chances, sure - but we don't sit back and play defense /absorb shots all game either. What we would need as a replacement is just a goalie(s) who can give us a consistent effort to count on. Currently MM is that guy (sorta) - but if he's that guy making 8M we're taking a step back as a team imo. At least until the cap goes up.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Didn't he go on some crazy streak last year?

Consistency has been a problem but Murray at his highs is definitely in the top tier, IMO.

But of course one could argue with quite a lot of conviction that a big part of what makes you elite is consistency.

Yup- to me that is the defining characteristic.

Some guys can go out there and have a 1 G, 2 A night on any given night. But what makes guys like Crosby, Kane, Ovi elite is they do it fairly often

MM has had runs where he's been money (the Cup runs obviously). But he has some staggering lows. Heck we've seen it this year already in 20 games. We've seen it within a game itself.

Honestly between his injuries, I feel like I still don't know who MM is even though I've seen him for 4 seasons. Very weird player to peg.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Yep. If he was consistently at his best, he'd be due to make way more money than we could/should pay him.

I'm just saying that when he's at his best, he's as good as anyone in the league right now. But again, like you said, it's the consistency thing.

I don't think it matters though. He'll be re-signed, right or wrong, and that's that. People may as well make their peace with it.

You're probably right

Frankly the only way MM doesn't get resigned is if he completely bombs this year OR Jarry completely blows everyone away with a Binnington like performance

How likely are either of those to happen? Very slim.

PS- I suppose a severe long term injury would question the Pens resigning him too

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

People just throw out that Murray is an elite goaltender or in the top 10 without thinkers by, but he really isn’t...go look at the #s, Vezina voting or whatever attempted objective standard you want to, but none of them point to him being more than average since the Cup runs

Of all goalies who played at least 50 games last year, Murray was 8th in GAA and 3rd in SV%:

NHL.com - Stats

 

[Hamurai]

People just throw out that Murray is an elite goaltender or in the top 10 without thinkers by, but he really isn’t...go look at the #s, Vezina voting or whatever attempted objective standard you want to, but none of them point to him being more than average since the Cup runs

Yeh I agree. I think it would be better to hold on to Murray and get Jarry more starts. Try to get his compete level back up through that goalie competition rather than deal him when his value is low.

 

[molon labe]

You're probably right

Frankly the only way MM doesn't get resigned is if he completely bombs this year OR Jarry completely blows everyone away with a Binnington like performance

How likely are either of those to happen? Very slim.

PS- I suppose a severe long term injury would question the Pens resigning him too

What if a team came to you offering a legitimate top-6 F for him right now? Or that + a couple draft picks? Or a borderline top-pairing D who is surely top-4?

Would that be enough to run a Jarry/CDS tandem? Gives you knowledge that your goalie tandem comes cheap for the next 2-3 years, that the Seattle draft becomes less of an issue, and allows you to either retain Schultz/Gally or get them replaced.

 

[3074326]

Most goalies are streaky, so is Murray. If we move Murray, health would be the reason I would do it. It won't matter who is in goalie in the playoffs unless they're playing at a very high level, and Murray's highest level is one of the best in the league.

 

[molon labe]

Yeh I agree. I think it would be better to hold on to Murray and get Jarry more starts. Try to get his compete level back up through that goalie competition rather than deal him when his value is low.

Murray isn't Bjugstad.

His value might not be astronomical - but looking ahead to the Summer, there's only one other full-time starter who can be qualified as a 'top-10' starter available [Holtby], and even then Holtby is UFA and MM is RFA. Any team who's looking for a #1 goalie over the long term would be all over MM....and he'd probably create a bidding war if it were made public, driving his price right back up.