Pierre Dorion's trade tracker

[The Lewler]

Why doesn’t anyone talk about Ian Cole?
Why did we flip him? Isn’t he the kind of guy we could have used?

Have been confused about this since he was traded for a pick

4.5 million reasons why .

Asked and answered.

 

[pt_mck]

Impossible to evaluate Dorions deals fairly. Nearly each one has been money driven.

Add up the $ saved in all trades and you get why they happened.

 

[lancepitlick]

The price was maybe a slight overpay but acceptable for a player of that caliber.

The main problem was the circumstances surrounding the deal. Everyone could see that we had a pretty flukey run in the playoffs (not hyperbole, basically take your pick of underlying statistics). We were not seen as a consistent contender, which is the type of team that would have made that deal should be. And now we're in a spot where for every 1 reason Duchene may want to re-sign here, the team has given him about 5 not to. The more shrewd move would likely have been to wait things out further...what was the rush? See where the team was after more than 10 games or so and by then the price likely would have come down.

To re-iterate, I didn't like the trade but didn't hate it. Definitely think we could have gone about it much better.

And looking at that list, thing that sticks out most: 4 top 6 forwards out, only 1 in.

The fans and management took the flukey playoff run to heart. Teams fluke their way to conference finals all the time. As you said the stats were not good during that run. They were underdogs in every playoff series and were relying on Godly goaltending and Karlsson that is not sustainable. But stats and rationality be damned, people believed what they wanted to believe.

If the team wanted to rebuild without bottoming out you keep Methot somehow, resign Turris, hope to resign Karlsson/Stone, and ditch the guys that are too old to be a factor in a couple seasons like Anderson / Brossard. Keep yoir first round pick and build with that.

The Duchesne trade flew in the face of all stats, logic and sense.

If you are going all in you actually need to be a great team.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

The fans and management took the flukey playoff run to heart. Teams fluke their way to conference finals all the time. As you said the stats were not good during that run. They were underdogs in every playoff series and were relying on Godly goaltending and Karlsson that is not sustainable. But stats and rationality be damned, people believed what they wanted to believe.

If the team wanted to rebuild without bottoming out you keep Methot somehow, resign Turris, hope to resign Karlsson/Stone, and ditch the guys that are too old to be a factor in a couple seasons like Anderson / Brossard. Keep yoir first round pick and build with that.

The Duchesne trade flew in the face of all stats, logic and sense.

If you are going all in you actually need to be a great team.

Agreed.

They thoroughly miscalculated how good the team was. Its been the norm for this organization though starting post 07 cup run.

 

[starling]

Stone and Duchene must be hating Dorion for that Karlsson deal. That trade effectively takes away ~10-20 points from each of them leading up to the most important contracts of their careers.

 

[Kellogs]

Unbelievable.

Dorion and that COO Ruzwhatever are lying through their noses and some gullible fans are actually buying it.
They only decided to trade Erik Karlsson in july when big bad Karl wouldn't sign the VERY generous and good-faithed contract offer they made him?
Then how come Bobby Ryan said he and Karl had their bags packed and thought they were gone IN FEBRUARY?

Fake news.

 

[solidprospect]

Be careful what you wish for. If you aren't giving a NMC or NTC to top players, then you have to give them bigger dollars and/or longer term on their contracts. You can still trade a player with an NTC or NMC (with consent from the player), but it's damned near impossible to make a decent trade with a guy who is badly overpaid.

Given our trading history it's also near impossible to make a good trade with anyone that has a NTC.NMC...Ideally most players that want a ntc or anything over 10 million we really shouldn't be going near that.

Zack smith has a NTC, how dumb is that!

Who makes bigger dollars on nashville, alot of good contracts there.

 

[inthewings]

Aside from Condon and the second Brassard trade, that’s a whole lot of ugly.

 

[dumbdick]

you don't fault him for trading for a guy that none of them had really watched? and paying an ABSOLUTE premium for that sort of asset given the ciurcumenstances;;

Nope. Burrows could have worked out. A lot of van fans were very sad to lose him and thought he still had a bit in the tank. Dahlen was and still is a lottery ticket. More often than not dahlen never cracks a roster in a meaningful way and that deal works out for us. Didn't play out that way obviously.

 

[BondraTime]

Nope. Burrows could have worked out. A lot of van fans were very sad to lose him and thought he still had a bit in the tank. Dahlen was and still is a lottery ticket. More often than not dahlen never cracks a roster in a meaningful way and that deal works out for us. Didn't play out that way obviously.

Disagree whole heartedly here. The guy was a 42nd overall pick who did nothing but improve his stock (look at how we value Formenton/Chlapik/Batherson/JBD/Tyconik)

It was a moronic trade in every sense and had little to no chance at a positive outcome for us.

 

[dumbdick]

It was a moronic trade in every sense and had little to no chance at a positive outcome for us.

2nd round picks often bust out, guys like burrows are often a serviceable rental. I know its a prospects forum, but little to no chance is a bit of an overstatement. Go read the posts at the time, people on here were split when it happened. It obviously didn't work out in hindsight. Dorion has made a lot of mistakes. This one is barely a blip on the radar.

 

[Engineer]

ok

 

[BondraTime]

2nd round picks often bust out, guys like burrows are often a serviceable rental. I know its a prospects forum, but little to no chance is a bit of an overstatement. Go read the posts at the time, people on here were split when it happened. It obviously didn't work out in hindsight. Dorion has made a lot of mistakes. This one is barely a blip on the radar.

You mean these posts? Because it is an over-whelming negatively viewed trade when it happened.

Agreed on the many mistakes part for sure though.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/thre...signed-to-speculated-extension-2x2-5.2195767/

 

[dumbdick]

You mean these posts? Because it is an over-whelming negatively viewed trade when it happened.

Agreed on the many mistakes part for sure though.

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/thre...signed-to-speculated-extension-2x2-5.2195767/

I love how you posted this 2 minutes after my post as though you had time to dig it up and read it.

 

[BondraTime]

I love how you posted this 2 minutes after my post as though you had time to dig it up and read it.

It's not had to remember something from a year ago....

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Given our trading history it's also near impossible to make a good trade with anyone that has a NTC.NMC...Ideally most players that want a ntc or anything over 10 million we really shouldn't be going near that.

Zack smith has a NTC, how dumb is that!

Who makes bigger dollars on nashville, alot of good contracts there.

Nashville is a place players want to go to. Same with a Tampa or Dallas. Certain cities/team situations have advantages that allow good GMs a bit of leverage to get better contracts. That doesn't mean the general rule regarding the NTC/NMC is invalid. It's all about give-and-take with contracts. You want a guy to give up a few dollars/years on the deal...give a NTC/NMC. Same for a guy like Smith...odds are his camp lowered their asking amount a bit for that NTC.

And no, I am not defending these clauses, either. I hate them. It makes players too comfortable and can lead to them going on "cruise control" too easily. But...like it or not, they are part of the NHL landscape, so we have to work with them.

 

[solidprospect]

Nashville is a place players want to go to. Same with a Tampa or Dallas. Certain cities/team situations have advantages that allow good GMs a bit of leverage to get better contracts. That doesn't mean the general rule regarding the NTC/NMC is invalid. It's all about give-and-take with contracts. You want a guy to give up a few dollars/years on the deal...give a NTC/NMC. Same for a guy like Smith...odds are his camp lowered their asking amount a bit for that NTC.

And no, I am not defending these clauses, either. I hate them. It makes players too comfortable and can lead to them going on "cruise control" too easily. But...like it or not, they are part of the NHL landscape, so we have to work with them.

I disagree. It shows that any above average player we get, has value that is severely diminished in return value as soon as we sign them to any movement clause. And if we're not going to keep players beyond 30 years of age, particularily our "stars", signing any of our youngsters to any movement clause is an extremely bad move.

We should eventually have a bunch of players with RFA status as protection for some of their years and not need to worry about no trade clauses. The advantage of getting younger. I mean we won't likely have to give many other players a movement clause for the next couple years.

 

[dumbdick]

It's not had to remember something from a year ago....

It was closer to two years ago, and I remember it too. There were a mix of reactions. Go back and read what people thought post wjc lazar or Paul were worth in trade value. Or tobi Lindberg. People here overhype the prospects and freak out whenever they're traded, but no one is ever held to account when that guy later fizzles. Burrows was a flop. We can't win this trade at this point. I wish to hell we would have traded Lazar when his value was high.

 

[BondraTime]

It was closer to two years ago, and I remember it too. There were a mix of reactions. Go back and read what people thought post wjc lazar or Paul were worth in trade value. Or tobi Lindberg. People here overhype the prospects and freak out whenever they're traded, but no one is ever held to account when that guy later fizzles. Burrows was a flop. We can't win this trade at this point. I wish to hell we would have traded Lazar when his value was high.

Ok?

What does Lazar or Paul have to do with anything regarding Dahlen-Burrows? Because Paul and Lazar are not working out and had hype that means nobody with hype is going to work out?

 

[Ouroboros]

I've never wanted any player outside the Sens organizationn to become a star more than I want it for Jonathan Dahlen.

 

[dumbdick]

Ok?

What does Lazar or Paul have to do with anything regarding Dahlen-Burrows? You're the one who brought up a 50-50 split...

I'm saying that hindsight is 20/20, that's all. We've already lost our half of this trade, but at the time it could have gone either way. Lazar for a vet 3rd liner would have been a 95-5 split against in the HF court of public opinion, and the 95 would have been vocally wrong for quite a while until all the chips landed. But if you re-read that thread there was support for and against that deal, maybe not 50-50, but there's a decent number of posts in there.

 

[BondraTime]

I'm saying that hindsight is 20/20, that's all. We've already lost our half of this trade, but at the time it could have gone either way. Lazar for a vet 3rd liner would have been a 95-5 split against in the HF court of public opinion, and the 95 would have been vocally wrong for quite a while until all the chips landed. But if you re-read that thread there was support for and against that deal, maybe not 50-50, but there's a decent number of posts in there.

Fair enough

 

[Wallet Inspector]

Honestly it's pretty impressive how he managed to make the two worst deals in franchise history:the Karlsson trade and the Duchene trade(assuming our pick is top 5).

 

[Agent Zub]

Honestly it's pretty impressive how he managed to make the two worst deals in franchise history:the Karlsson trade and the Duchene trade(assuming our pick is top 5).

And here I was thinking that Dahlen for Burrows wouldn't be topped.


Ahhhh how naive I was

 

[Burrowsaurus]

2nd round picks often bust out, guys like burrows are often a serviceable rental. I know its a prospects forum, but little to no chance is a bit of an overstatement. Go read the posts at the time, people on here were split when it happened. It obviously didn't work out in hindsight. Dorion has made a lot of mistakes. This one is barely a blip on the radar.

but you know who also almost always busts? players with nothing left or are already playing horribly.

Burrows was also a lottery ticket