Pick your young defenceman

[cgf]

That's not what an "excuse" is.

If you want to explain what you see being better in Dahlin, go ahead, I'm not interested in psychoanalyzing your evaluation.

There's a beautiful irony to demanding a thorough argument when you're dismissing opposing positions by claiming they've never watched Cale before.

But I wouldn't expect anything less from someone who's never watched Dahlin before

 

[John Johnson]

Makar
Dahlin
Heiskanen
Fox
Chabot
Hughes

Incredible list of young dmen. Exciting times for NHL fans.

Fox definitely has #1 potential. Hughes doesn't due to defensive weaknesses.

You could at least pretend like you watch those other defenceman play besides Makar.

 

[TeddyBare]

qUInn hUgHes cAnT DEfenD......... surprised that narrative is still a thing in this thread.
Better shot suppression, and entry denials and defensive point shares than some players mentioned in here. But that's none of my business.

 

[majormajor]

There's a beautiful irony to demanding a thorough argument when you're dismissing opposing positions by claiming they've never watched Cale before.

But I wouldn't expect anything less from someone who's never watched Dahlin before

There have been A LOT of people opining on Cale before watching him, and then publicly retracting their views. I'm not crying about it, it's just a thing that happens here.

I've seen two Sabres games this year and about 25 last year. And much of that time I was fast forwarding through streams just to focus on Dahlin. Not the best but enough to write a scouting report on Dahlin, and what he does and does not do at this very early point in his career.

It would be ironic if I was dismissing a thorough explanation. I was not. I'd love to see a thorough side by side write up of the players explaining why Dahlin has the better talent.

 

[majormajor]

qUInn hUgHes cAnT DEfenD......... surprised that narrative is still a thing in this thread.

I'm not here saying Hughes can't defend, but those charts just confirm to me that Hughes doesn't have to defend much. He doesn't start a lot of shifts in his own end, and when he gets the puck he tends to hang on to it and prolong plays, a lot of long shifts with Canucks possession. That's a a great skill to have, but it doesn't say much about how good someone is when they're in their own end without the puck.

 

[TeddyBare]

I'm not here saying Hughes can't defend, but those charts just confirm to me that Hughes doesn't have to defend much. He doesn't start a lot of shifts in his own end, and when he gets the puck he tends to hang on to it and prolong plays, a lot of long shifts with Canucks possession. That's a a great skill to have, but it doesn't say much about how good someone is when they're in their own end without the puck.

and yet he has a better entry denials, and defensive point shares than adam fox
But look at that Adam fox is thought to be one of the best defensive d-man out of this group.

 

[majormajor]

and yet he has a better entry denials, and defensive point shares than adam fox
But look at that Adam fox is thought to be one of the best defensive d-man out of this group.

Do you have a link to "defensive point shares" or "entry denials" stats? It just seems interesting.

 

[TeddyBare]

Do you have a link to "defensive point shares" or "entry denials" stats? It just seems interesting.

You can get them from Hockey Reference
Defensive Point Shares
Heiskanen = 2.4
Makar = 1.3
Fox = 0.8
Dahlin = 1.1
Chabot = 0.4
Hughes = 1.1
Entry denials is from Micah McCurdy patreon.

I am not saying hughes is an a defensive rock, but he holds his own and is doing more than adequate for a rookie compared to some of these other dudes.

 

[majormajor]

You can get them from Hockey Reference
Defensive Point Shares
Heiskanen = 2.4
Makar = 1.3
Fox = 0.8
Dahlin = 1.1
Chabot = 0.4
Hughes = 1.1
Entry denials is from Micah McCurdy patreon.

I am not saying hughes is an a defensive rock, but he holds his own and is doing more than adequate for a rookie compared to some of these other dudes.

Interesting.

The DPS formula doesn't contain any zone start adjustment or anything like that, it's just a numerical version of the heat maps posted above here, which again don't necessarily tell you much about play without the puck.

But I will say the DPS stats for my favorite team's players - the Blue Jackets - are pretty spot on with my subjective assessment.

 

[Slurpeelover27]

You could at least pretend like you watch those other defenceman play besides Makar.

Lol I assume you mean Hughes. I live in the Vancouver area and have watched a ton of Hughes. It is only my opinion but he appears to have weak coverage in his own zone and physically he also has a hard time in the corners. Stats only mean so much.

I will admit I have not seen too much of the others except Makar, mostly highlights and what experts and other posters have to say. Rangers fans absolutely rave about Adam Fox. I have him on my fantasy team as well as Makar so have been watching both very closely.

Hughes has high end offensive talent no doubt but my opinion is that he has a long way to go when other team is attacking.

 

[TeddyBare]

Interesting.

The DPS formula doesn't contain any zone start adjustment or anything like that, it's just a numerical version of the heat maps posted above here, which again don't necessarily tell you much about play without the puck.

But I will say the DPS stats for my favorite team's players - the Blue Jackets - are pretty spot on with my subjective assessment.

zone starts doesnt tell you much, and in the big scheme of things is pretty useless.
it only effects the first 10 seconds of shift
variations in zone starts have a rather unimpressive effect on shot metrics as a whole it has already been proven

zone starts and QoC are insanely overrated.

 

[TeddyBare]

Lol I assume you mean Hughes. I live in the Vancouver area and have watched a ton of Hughes. It is only my opinion but he appears to have weak coverage in his own zone and physically he also has a hard time in the corners. Stats only mean so much.

I will admit I have not seen too much of the others except Makar, mostly highlights and what experts and other posters have to say. Rangers fans absolutely rave about Adam Fox. I have him on my fantasy team as well as Makar so have been watching both very closely.

Hughes has high end offensive talent no doubt but my opinion is that he has a long way to go when other team is attacking.

Fox has even longer way then.

 

[John Johnson]

Lol I assume you mean Hughes. I live in the Vancouver area and have watched a ton of Hughes. It is only my opinion but he appears to have weak coverage in his own zone and physically he also has a hard time in the corners. Stats only mean so much.

I will admit I have not seen too much of the others except Makar, mostly highlights and what experts and other posters have to say. Rangers fans absolutely rave about Adam Fox. I have him on my fantasy team as well as Makar so have been watching both very closely.

Hughes has high end offensive talent no doubt but my opinion is that he has a long way to go when other team is attacking.

Your opinion is your opinion and its clearly a biased one but whatever I can't do much to change that. Not just about Hughes but your list in general is a hot take but to each their own. Just watch out how you overrate Makar because its only been 22 games. Also you said you don't watch any other defenceman other than Makar and Hughes apparently, so you're just taking the word of Rangers fans when comparing the other defenceman to Fox? Also you say you follow him closely, but rarely if ever watch him? Which one is it?

 

[majormajor]

zone starts doesnt tell you much, and in the big scheme of things is pretty useless.
it only effects the first 10 seconds of shift
variations in zone starts have a rather unimpressive effect on shot metrics as a whole it has already been proven

zone starts and QoC are insanely overrated.

I know the case with QoC, there just isn't much variance in it. But zone starts I think would matter, 10 seconds is a long time per shift. I'd have to see the evidence that you're mentioning.

 

[Slurpeelover27]

Your opinion is your opinion and its clearly a biased one but whatever I can't do much to change that. Not just about Hughes but your list in general is a hot take but to each their own. Just watch out how you overrate Makar because its only been 22 games. Also you said you don't watch any other defenceman other than Makar and Hughes apparently, so you're just taking the word of Rangers fans when comparing the other defenceman to him? Also you say you follow him closely, but rarely if ever watch him? Which one is it?

Sorry, but almost impossible to overrate Makar.

Check my earlier posts from even before playoffs last year. I knew a long time ago he had this potential. I thought it would take a couple years to put it all together but he is well on his way with still lots room to improve.

 

[John Johnson]

Sorry, but almost impossible to overrate Makar.

Check my earlier posts from even before playoffs last year. I knew a long time ago he had this potential. I thought it would take a couple years to put it all together but he is well on his way with still lots room to improve.

Impossible yet you are finding a way.

 

[TeddyBare]

I know the case with QoC, there just isn't much variance in it. But zone starts I think would matter, 10 seconds is a long time per shift. I'd have to see the evidence that you're mentioning.

Shots metrics over time start come back to the aggregate when adjusted for zone starts. Changes on the fly does it because it they are the highest percentage of a players totals
HV Article

I mean as it stands right now
Hughes has 40 defensive zone starts
Fox has has 40 defensive zone starts
Makar has 42 defensive zine starts
Dahlin has 28 defense zone starts
Chabot has 47 defensive zone starts

there is literally zero argument to be said for hughes not performing well defensively compared to some of the other guys in the thread. His expected Goals against is so much better than some of these guys.

 

[hcg]

I agree its too early to tell with Fox, but what has Hughes done to show top 1 potential? I just don't think a couple of these guys have done anything to separate themselves from a guy like Fox.

Hughes has 17 points in 22 games and is tied with Carlson for 1st in PP points. Advanced stats are good.

Hughes is legit.

 

[hcg]

I'm not here saying Hughes can't defend, but those charts just confirm to me that Hughes doesn't have to defend much. He doesn't start a lot of shifts in his own end, and when he gets the puck he tends to hang on to it and prolong plays, a lot of long shifts with Canucks possession. That's a a great skill to have, but it doesn't say much about how good someone is when they're in their own end without the puck.

So your argument is that hughes might be bad defensively but we don't know because he's so amazing that he never has to play defense?

I'm fine with that. I'll take that trade.

 

[hcg]

Lol I assume you mean Hughes. I live in the Vancouver area and have watched a ton of Hughes. It is only my opinion but he appears to have weak coverage in his own zone and physically he also has a hard time in the corners. Stats only mean so much.

I will admit I have not seen too much of the others except Makar, mostly highlights and what experts and other posters have to say. Rangers fans absolutely rave about Adam Fox. I have him on my fantasy team as well as Makar so have been watching both very closely.

Hughes has high end offensive talent no doubt but my opinion is that he has a long way to go when other team is attacking.

Of course he has a hard time physically, he's 5'10" 170. People do realize he's the 2nd youngest guy on this list? Younger than Heiskanen by a few months.

He has rookie mistakes but he holds his own well for a rookie. He's smart and active.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Based on what I've seen so far from them in the NHL I'd take both Makar and Heiskanen over Dahlin. Might be a case of them playing on better constructed teams though.

 

[Machinehead]

Fox is just happy to be here.

Nobody but Dahlin should have votes.

 

[Dr Salt]

Makar
Dahlin
Heiskanen
Fox
Chabot
Hughes

Incredible list of young dmen. Exciting times for NHL fans.

Fox definitely has #1 potential. Hughes doesn't due to defensive weaknesses.

He's been pretty good defensively so far this year.

 

[Sasso09]

Dahlin/Makar out of this group. Puzzled why Fox is an option.

 

[Sasso09]

Makar
Dahlin
Heiskanen
Fox
Chabot
Hughes

Incredible list of young dmen. Exciting times for NHL fans.

Fox definitely has #1 potential. Hughes doesn't due to defensive weaknesses.

Fox over Chabot is criminal at this point