Phoenix XXXIV: Project Mayhem

[roccerfeller]

I tend to agree with what I have seen Killion write here.

I consider myself a traditionalist....and yet believe that Phoenix should be saved.

Firstly, the league has too few teams out west as it is. Moving a team from one of the biggest U.S. metropolitan areas in the entire country (that happens to be in the west) is short-term good, but long-term it's foolhardy.

From a business point of view everyone is going to say "but these Winnipeg owners have so much money"...yea what happens in 10 years if they want to sell? What happens if something unforeseen happens with the health of the owners?

To me the building and owners are secondary factors compared to the long-term potential of a market....and from a business point of view the NHL has been trying to do the right thing and although of course it rankles the population of Winnipeg, it is a good thing that Bettman has done his best not to abandon the Phoenix market and its fans.

So of course from emotion I would love to see the Jets and Whalers return, but I perfectly understand the logic of why Phoenix has gotten such a long leash.

From wiki....The population of the Phoenix metropolitan area increased by 45.3% from 1990 through 2000....The long-term potential is there and is worth fighting for. The damage of 15 years of bad teams and bad ownership in a new market doesn't go away overnight.

I should also note that I do not believe it is right to subsidize a private industry with public money....and if the final deal is still based on that...then I would not support it.

Nice read btw, but two things:

1) I disagree with building & ownership being secondary factors - especially related to long term ownership. Let us assume a city such as Phoenix has "long term potential" but it did not have either a) a building or b) ownership group. Can't even have ownership of a franchise in this case, so the secondary factor point becomes moot and nullified. Following this, I would suggest that ownership & building are the primary factors, especially if one takes Gary bettman for his word at what 3 factors are crucial for a market.

2) That huge population boom has a lot to do with the housing crash on a local level. Big booms do not come without big busts.

 

[Fugu]

So what exactly does the real or imagined hypocrisy of some faceless group of Manitobans have to do with anything? Yeah, let's put up with more obfuscation.

So, we've established that emotional fanatics aren't always rational and logically consistent. That's some ground breaking insight right there. Why do the rules around here allow for this silly fallacious nonsense?

The political discourse has been removed, as it's OT and takes focus off the real issues of concern to a hockey board-- the financial matters at hand wrt to the Phoenix Coyotes.

The question that was asked, and answered was this:

This argument loses me as well.

What difference does it make what "social" policies the GWI does and does not support?So unless all Coyotes fans are liberals and ONLY conservatives want them to leave, I really don't understand this argument.

... because that, and only that, is what is driving this entire issue.

I know that many relocationists like to think it's all about the constitution. That is willful blindless by people who will support anyone and anything that they perceive will benefit their singleminded objective.

Posters are free to believe that GWI's overall interests about social policies and governance aren't aligned with those of supporters/detractors of the COG attempts to keep a team in Glendale. They may even choose to believe that one should allow constitutional law to be broken if the party highlighting the effort is politically misaligned with that person.

Point being, we're all free to choose what we believe in.

My response to this portion of GC's comment is:

I know that many relocationists like to think it's all about the constitution. That is willful blindless by people who will support anyone and anything that they perceive will benefit their singleminded objective.

It doesn't really matter what GWI's ultimate motive is in regard to COG's attempts. The fact of the matter is that they were able to chill the entire process on potentially legal grounds (constitutional grounds). COG can choose to ignore them and fight on later; or seek another option where they don't have to subsidize the purchase of a pro sports franchise to the tune of $197 MM.

 

[crazed323]

OK crazed, Im not about to rush to the defence of another posters intellectual integrity here but you really are going to far. First off, many posters on these boards are lawyers who prefer anonymity for the very reasons you criticize those who are actually "out of the closet" so to speak. They come here to post as a form of relaxation & entertainment, whereby they are permitted to express their opinions freely for or against any given subject just like everyone else. They DO have that choice here, whereas in their professional lives they may not. Secondly, whether your a lawyer or not, any thoughtful person will give full objective thought & consideration to the alternate point of view & draw their own conclusions, make a decision, pick a side or not, argue/discuss respectfully & considerately. When and as new details emerge as in this complicated matter and someone decides to alter or change their opinions accordingly, it serves no purpose to crucify that individual, hold them to a higher standard than anyone else based on profession. Enough said.

He holds himself to a higher standard. He has made light of the fact that he is a lawyer numerous times. He belittles anyone that may not have a legal opinion. Calling others single-minded is completely hyprocrtitical. I am simply challenging his ability to be objective.

As for the other lawyers, I know there are a few but they are objective for the most part. Weighing the views of both sides. I believe the one I responded to, has more to bring to the table then he does. Wether it is out of a single minded belief or inability, he doesn't.

 

[Puckschmuck*]

He holds himself to a higher standard. He has made light of the fact that he is a lawyer numerous times. He belittles anyone that may not have a legal opinion. Calling others single-minded is completely hyprocrtitical. I am simply challenging his ability to be objective.

Not to mention the fact that he likes to make light of the Winnipeg supports, and tries to disguise this in an "intellectual" manner, although I think most can see through that ruse.

It doesn't matter though. Once Winnipeg gets a team back, he will hopefully disapear from our lives once and for all.

 

[Fugu]

No, the poster is not so simply stating that theres an element of hypocrisy stemming from some, not all but some of the northerly posters in their critiques of the COG's preambulations in structuring the deal in the way that they did, based on Manitobas' own track record with respect to governmental largesse', subsidies & maternal proclivities. At odds with the GWI's core beliefs. There is absolutely no reason to take offense to this observation, so cool your jets...

I think there are two issues, and not necessarily related.

1. Political Philosophy & Left/Right POV's

One's leanings with regard to government spending. I agree that some have been quick to deride Glendale's willingness to do something done in many places, Canadian and US--- spend public money to 'assist' private enterprises. There is a spectrum of such spending, including tax incentives to companies to locate in a location to full-blown subsidies of questionable social return or benefit. As was pointed out, government dollars were offered to save the Jets.

2. Arizona Constitution

Here's the crux of THIS matter however, regardless of where you find yourself on the above spectrum. Arizona has a constitution and there is enough doubt about the structure of this deal in terms of potentially violating a portion of said legal 'document.' GWI would not have had the impact it has if there wasn't something to consider.

In fact, people may be completely correct in their assessment of GWI's motives, but the constitutional matter hangs like a black cloud over Eeyore that just won't go away.

Firstly, the league has too few teams out west as it is. Moving a team from one of the biggest U.S. metropolitan areas in the entire country (that happens to be in the west) is short-term good, but long-term it's foolhardy.

And it makes less sense to dismiss Atlanta more quickly than Phoenix on these very grounds.

The NHL is between a rock and a hard place. It has to have an owner in that location who is willing to invest and maintain the property. The owner/franchise also need a venue that is suitable for an NHL team.

What we're seeing is what happens when problems come with finding an owner and/or a suitable venue (also from financial considerations).

the government did buy a big chunk of the jets in an attempt to keep them from leaving....the efforts to save the jets were only slightly less ridiculous than those to save the coyotes, when seen from an outsider's perspective.

Good point, and one everyone would do well to keep in mind. It might lead posters here to find a common ground instead of viewing each other as mortal enemies.

 

[phxroadrunner]

That really doesn't make a lot of sense. Colangelo absolutely knew the finances of buying a WS, pro and con. He just didn't care and wanted a winner. What they did not anticipate was one of the best (some say the best) farm systems in the league producing almost nothing outside of a now broken and non Diamondback Brandon Webb.

Colangelo didn't care because he never used much of his own money. He relied on a bevy of well-heeled investors to buy his way to a World Series title in '01. When the investors balked at yearly cash calls and the deferred compensation paid to Matt Williams, R. Johnson and Schilling et al., Colangelo was deservedly thrown out on his ass in '04. Maggie Thatcher's axiom about the ills of socialism is apropos when explaining Colangelo's downfall: "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money". No, as a Coyote fan who desperately wants the team to stay, I don't feel too confident in our prospects if Bettman is resorting to someone whose influence is this town has diminished considerably.

 

[Puckschmuck*]

Colangelo didn't care because he never used much of his own money.

If this is true, and I were a Coyotes fan, I would not be very confident in him being able to be a legitimate contender for owning the Coyotes.

 

[pucka lucka]

Good point, and one everyone would do well to keep in mind. It might lead posters here to find a common ground instead of viewing each other as mortal enemies.

This is the part I don't get. How does what another municipal government did or didn't do, at all relevant. It just muddies the discussion with irrelevant rhetoric. What effect does it have on this deal? It's a complete non-sequitur.

 

[Killion]

I am simply challenging his ability to be objective.

Ya, I get that crazed, and I didnt mean to get Heavy on yer Hyneee. He is objective, as are you. He's free to choose, as are you. No harm no foul. Everybody plays the game differently. You know that. He's a professional advocate, and you know full well they can be both vociferous & brutal in arguing home their points. So what. Gimme yer best shot Buddy. Your safe. Your secure in your opinion if youve done your due-dillyilly'eo as well yes?. Thing is, who cares what standard people hold themselves to?. Interpret, read between the lines, amuse yourself rather than take offence where none is really intended. We all have our funny ways of conveyance, so what if so & so pours on a little more hot sauce than you or I might like?. Have a drink (I do, all the time) & laugh it off. No point in taking 2-5 or 10 minutes, Game Misconducts. Your contributions & opinions are just as valid. Dont let the team down Man.

In fact, people may be completely correct in their assessment of GWI's motives, but the constitutional matter hangs like a black cloud over Eeyore that just won't go away..

Bingo. So heres the deal. I read the Coyote supporters bemoaning GW's tortious interference (as do I). Arizona is the only state with a Gift Clause in their Constitution. So get rid of it. Even the playing field with Ohio, Michigan, the Carolinas', Texas & everywhere else. I dont have the slightest problem with government funding arenas', stadiums or teams. None whatsoever. In Arizona however, your laws prohibit such activities on the magnitude being contemplated by Hulsizer & the COG (according to the GW sycophants). Vote in people that'll do something about it. Its given rise & legs to GW's very existence. Break it. Its a lousy law and doesnt serve the people well. Thats my opinion. Let fly with the "but then they could do anything they wanted....." arguments. Damn straight they could. Im not advocating unbridled freedom with no checks & balances, just calling for an even playing field here folks....

 

[Fugu]

This is the part I don't get. How does what another municipal government did or didn't do, at all relevant. It just muddies the discussion with irrelevant rhetoric. What effect does it have on this deal? It's a complete non-sequitur.

Isn't that the point?

It's the biggest obstacle to having a discussion on this board that focuses on the relevant issues. 95% of the posts are the fan bases taking shots at each other, who deserves a team, and why "their" government shouldn't finance a team.

 

[Dado]

I have never in all my life met this mythical breed of human referred to as "objective". According to the actuarial charts I'm only about half way through my time on this ball of mud, so I suppose it is possible I may yet meet one, but that's something I wouldnt even bet Scrugg's money on.

I've also never come across a fan base that "deserves" a team. I do know of fan bases that for various reasons inspire otherwise sensible business men to invest in franchises, that's as far it goes.

Currently, Winnipeg does this to a greater extent than Phoenix, so it makes sense that the team would move from one place to the other.

 

[Killion]

95% of the posts are the fan bases taking shots at each other, who deserves a team, and why "their" government shouldn't finance a team.

No reason for it either. We do just that up here, as do the Americans & Euro's. Its a fact of life. The bridge has been crossed. Only Arizona hasnt blown it up, yet their the most aggressive in terms of providing subsidies for pro sports. Something just aint right with that picture when observed from a distance. The Arizona Tourism & Sports Authority shouldve' been on this thing years ago as clearly it was the states marketing plan to combine sport with destination tourism. The law needs to be changed. Their staring down the barrel of a gun handcuffed to antiquated laws after making massive infrastructure investments.... what a frick frackin yoke of an anchor to be wearing.

 

[Killion]

I've also never come across a fan base that "deserves" a team..

I have Daddyo'. All over the English countryside, from North Yorkshire-Devon. They could care less about whether or not their playing in the Premier or 4th division so long as their playing & their uninterrupted history remains a constant. They DESERVE.

 

[Dado]

That's the beauty of relegation - its extremely difficult for "your" team to be taken away from you. Even Preston freakin' North End is still alive and kicking and pulling in fans.

 

[PitbulI]

One question. If phoenix was so scared on losing their major league status, wouldn't they be putting up a stink about the coyotes moving too?

 

[SuperDave21]

If this is true, and I were a Coyotes fan, I would not be very confident in him being able to be a legitimate contender for owning the Coyotes.

If I were someone from Winnipeg, I would be scared that someone of Colangelo's name even being mentioned with the Coyotes. He's a big fish in the Arizona sports market, and has ties to just about every Arizona franchise. If Colangelo really is involved, the Coyotes' chances of being relocated to Winnipeg drops dramatically. If Jerry is on board with a project, then Arizona usually follows suit. If I were from Winnipeg, and hoping for the return of the Jets franchise via a relocation of the Coyotes, then I would be praying to whatever god/statue/book/plant that Colangelo is not involved.

 

[bacon25]

If I were someone from Winnipeg, I would be scared that someone of Colangelo's name even being mentioned with the Coyotes. He's a big fish in the Arizona sports market, and has ties to just about every Arizona franchise. If Colangelo really is involved, the Coyotes' chances of being relocated to Winnipeg drops dramatically. If Jerry is on board with a project, then Arizona usually follows suit. If I were from Winnipeg, and hoping for the return of the Jets franchise via a relocation of the Coyotes, then I would be praying to whatever god/statue/book/plant that Colangelo is not involved.

Bettman wants the team to stay in Phoenix, so really it does not matter who is being mentioned with the Coyotes. Bettman would start collaborating with the Easter Bunny or Santa Clause; if there is a slim hope of keeping the team in Glendale then Bettman will try it, why else would this ownership debacle be going on so long? My guess is that Bettman and the NHL will cover the costs for another year until a owner is found. What I wish is that this whole thing would end, I think everyone is starting to snap at each other due to how frustrating it all is.

 

[Roughneck]

If I were someone from Winnipeg, I would be scared that someone of Colangelo's name even being mentioned with the Coyotes. He's a big fish in the Arizona sports market, and has ties to just about every Arizona franchise. If Colangelo really is involved, the Coyotes' chances of being relocated to Winnipeg drops dramatically. If Jerry is on board with a project, then Arizona usually follows suit. If I were from Winnipeg, and hoping for the return of the Jets franchise via a relocation of the Coyotes, then I would be praying to whatever god/statue/book/plant that Colangelo is not involved.

I swear we've already seen this one, just replace Colangelo with McCain.

 

[blues10]

I swear we've already seen this one, just replace Colangelo with McCain.

Ditto for Grant Woods

 

[borno87]

If I were someone from Winnipeg, I would be scared that someone of Colangelo's name even being mentioned with the Coyotes. He's a big fish in the Arizona sports market, and has ties to just about every Arizona franchise. If Colangelo really is involved, the Coyotes' chances of being relocated to Winnipeg drops dramatically. If Jerry is on board with a project, then Arizona usually follows suit. If I were from Winnipeg, and hoping for the return of the Jets franchise via a relocation of the Coyotes, then I would be praying to whatever god/statue/book/plant that Colangelo is not involved.

If I were a Coyotes fan, I would be wondering where Colangelo has been the past 2 years? Where was he when the team first entered bankruptcy? Where was he all of last season when CoG was negotiating with the likes of IEH? Where was all of last summer up to and including the first December 31 soft deadline? Where was he 2 months ago? Where was he 2 weeks ago?

The answer to all of the above is Colangelo had no interest, and IMO still doesn't. What has changed that all of a sudden Colangelo is interested in this project?

At this late stage in the game, there really isn't any rational reason Colangelo would get involved. I would argue it is Coyotes fans who should be praying to their Devine being of choice that Sunnucks is actually right about somehing for once.

Also not sure who you are referring to in regards to the bold above.

 

[Coach]

One question. If phoenix was so scared on losing their major league status, wouldn't they be putting up a stink about the coyotes moving too?

Phoenix already lost the team when they moved to Glendale. Phoenix isn't putting a penny into trying to save this team.

 

[Motown Beatdown]

If I were someone from Winnipeg, I would be scared that someone of Colangelo's name even being mentioned with the Coyotes. He's a big fish in the Arizona sports market, and has ties to just about every Arizona franchise. If Colangelo really is involved, the Coyotes' chances of being relocated to Winnipeg drops dramatically. If Jerry is on board with a project, then Arizona usually follows suit. If I were from Winnipeg, and hoping for the return of the Jets franchise via a relocation of the Coyotes, then I would be praying to whatever god/statue/book/plant that Colangelo is not involved.

Unless he has had a major change of heart i dont see it. He sees no long term future with the team and openly admits arena location doesn't support the fan base and there's a different between going to Glendale 8 times a year for the NFL than 41 times for a NHL game (numbers support that fact)

 

[RR]

Colangelo didn't care because he never used much of his own money. He relied on a bevy of well-heeled investors to buy his way to a World Series title in '01. When the investors balked at yearly cash calls and the deferred compensation paid to Matt Williams, R. Johnson and Schilling et al., Colangelo was deservedly thrown out on his ass in '04. Maggie Thatcher's axiom about the ills of socialism is apropos when explaining Colangelo's downfall: "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples money". No, as a Coyote fan who desperately wants the team to stay, I don't feel too confident in our prospects if Bettman is resorting to someone (Colangelo) whose influence is this town has diminished considerably.

Have to disagree with your last point. Colangelo is the Vice Chairman of the new state Arizona Commerce Authority, chaired by Gov. Brewer. The Authority replaced the state's Department of Commerce. Its purpose is to recruit and entice new private businesses to the state using state funds, and retaining businesses already here.

That may be why Colangelo's name has popped up again in the Coyotes saga. He's definitely back in the spotlight, big time.

My guess is that IF Colangelo is involved it's likely in his role with the Authority, comprised of >25 local business heavy-hitters like the CEO of Freeport-McMoran and the State President of Bank of America. That would be a pretty good "think-tank" to tap for ideas on how to keep the Coyotes here.

 

[Puckschmuck*]

If I were a Coyotes fan, I would be wondering where Colangelo has been the past 2 years? Where was he when the team first entered bankruptcy? Where was he all of last season when CoG was negotiating with the likes of IEH? Where was all of last summer up to and including the first December 31 soft deadline? Where was he 2 months ago? Where was he 2 weeks ago?

The answer to all of the above is Colangelo had no interest, and IMO still doesn't. What has changed that all of a sudden Colangelo is interested in this project?

At this late stage in the game, there really isn't any rational reason Colangelo would get involved. I would argue it is Coyotes fans who should be praying to their Devine being of choice that Sunnucks is actually right about somehing for once.

Exactly.

 

[SuperDave21]

Have to disagree with your last point. Colangelo is the Vice Chairman of the new state Arizona Commerce Authority, chaired by Gov. Brewer. The Authority replaced the state's Department of Commerce. Its purpose is to recruit and entice new private businesses to the state using state funds, and retaining businesses already here.

That may be why Colangelo's name has popped up again in the Coyotes saga. He's definitely back in the spotlight, big time.

My guess is that IF Colangelo is involved it's likely in his role with the Authority, comprised of >25 local business heavy-hitters like the CEO of Freeport-McMoran and the State President of Bank of America. That would be a pretty good "think-tank" to tap for ideas on how to keep the Coyotes here.

Exactly.