Phoenix XXXIV: Project Mayhem

[Metzen]

Who cares about the Bombers or Katz wanting public money. They don't live where a gift clause exists making it illegal. Change your law or your argument.

Edmonton almost lost their team because the citizens refused to allow the city to pay for the team with tax money in the 90's. The issue today is whether tax payers should pay for a arena.

 

[dobiezeke*]

I love this guy

Canadian media spews ******** from unconfirmed sources saying that the deal is dead, that the Coyotes are moving, etc... and you believe it 100%

Canadian media says that Colangelo might be involved once again, a guy that can singlehandedly get enough investors to save the team in Phoenix....and all of a sudden you're skeptical about this news

Which Canadian media has said the deal is dead? There are several that have commented on the last life of the deal, including the media in Winnipeg. They have repeatedly stated that until a deal with Pheonix is dead, there is no change in this debacle.

Good rant though.

 

[aj8000]

And the Blue Bombers just got help from taxpayers..... Those are really OT for this thread, but THAT is also a reality.

However, the Bombers are owned by the Community. (ie taxpayers); therefore, the owners are putting the money in. Therefore, it is irrelevant.

 

[peter sullivan]

I love this guy

Canadian media spews ******** from unconfirmed sources saying that the deal is dead, that the Coyotes are moving, etc... and you believe it 100%

Canadian media says that Colangelo might be involved once again, a guy that can singlehandedly get enough investors to save the team in Phoenix....and all of a sudden you're skeptical about this news

really?

are you actually questioning skepticism in reports of a fourth potential owner coming to the table in a single year?....the failure of the others was not a matter of wealth.....it was a matter of will.

he might not even really be involved....the details are pretty sketchy at this point and everyone is jumping to a lot of conclusions....the report was that the NHL spoke to him, not that he is interested.

maybe he is, but its a bit early to crown him the saviour.....he's not the balkan for goodness sake.

 

[GSC2k2*]

From reading page 46 it appears the Cog has $80M in cash and another $184M that will mature within a year. The Enterprise funds are on page 32 and there is about 56M in cash. However, I doubt pulling $$ will placate GWI. In fact they would protest louder & would definitely sue, IMO.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that anything like this would placate GWI (although I will remain dubious that they would ever sue until they actually do, if ever). If they truly believe that the parking rights or arena management rights are worth less than the money being paid, COG paying in cash does not change that.

I am simply looking at whether the previous conclusion that this option would not be available to COG because they would not have enough liquid cash may not be the case. It seem that they may, although it is difficult to know for sure, and it would have to be not just from the enterprise fund. Whether or not they would do it, of course, is another question entirely.

 

[Killion]

Will not do it....

 

[GSC2k2*]

Will not do it....

If they ever did, K, I would think of it only in the sense of them effectively giving themselves a bridge loan, while they go get a court ruling as to the validity of the deal. Once they get their favourable order (as they almost surely would), they could THEN proceed with a bond issue free of any issue as to validity, and presumably with a more favourable set of terms and conditions.

Of course, there are many, many other options available to the parties to finance this transaction, none of which have really been discussed here.

 

[GSC2k2*]

really?

are you actually questioning skepticism in reports of a fourth potential owner coming to the table in a single year?....the failure of the others was not a matter of wealth.....it was a matter of will.

he might not even really be involved....the details are pretty sketchy at this point and everyone is jumping to a lot of conclusions....the report was that the NHL spoke to him, not that he is interested.

maybe he is, but its a bit early to crown him the saviour.....he's not the balkan for goodness sake.

In the circumstances, I would caution both sides to be skeptical of any direct involvement by Colangelo. Perhaps in the manner suggested by RR earlier, but I would not get too excited that he would be terribly important to this deal, until we hear form him directly on the matter.

 

[RR]

If Colangelo is involved, can we assume that much of the deal that involves public money/backing of some description must be reworked to the point where the citizenry is left clear enough to get GW to back down? Any ideas as to what specifically Colangelo and potentially the other "heavy-hitters" would bring to the table to make a deal work?

Assume? After two years, is it safe to assume anything?

As I said, if Colangelo is indeed back in the fold in some capacity my guess is it's in his role with the ACA.

As for the "heavy hitters," who knows? Alternative financing ideas? Bring pressure on Goldwater? New ownership group? ACA involvement that could close the sale?

Again, who knows?

 

[Killion]

Of course, there are many, many other options available to the parties to finance this transaction, none of which have really been discussed here.

....which of course both bothers & frustrates the Hell out of people. Too bad so sad huh?.

 

[smokes]

Assume? After two years, is it safe to assume anything?

As I said, if Colangelo is indeed back in the fold in some capacity my guess is it's in his role with the ACA.

As for the "heavy hitters," who knows? Alternative financing ideas? Bring pressure on Goldwater? New ownership group? ACA involvement that could close the sale?

Again, who knows?

In broad terms, unless Colangelo's involvement brings 100 million to be added to MH's 70, or 170 million of his/other's own, I'm not sure what would change. MH pledged 70 million of his own money and then required 100 million from the COG (which seems to have stalled the proceedings from GW's perspective). Does that not speak to what the market will bear for this transaction to take place after almost two years? GW would appear to be the stumbling block. What will Colangelo bring that will get this monkey off the COG's back? Am I missing something? Probably...

 

[GSC2k2*]

here's a couple...just for fun because a comment like that deserves a response....i will admit that you could compile a list of incorrect assumptions or interpretations for almost anyone who has followed this....but nobody else has made such a claim.....its all in good fun GSC.

Hey, no sweat.

GSC2k2: 07-13-2010 at 05:18 PM.

Where the money came from on an interim basis (the enterprise-fund account) is of no relevance to what I am talking about.

Pursuant to an agreement between the team and the CoG a few years ago, as part of a parking arrangement amendment, $25M was put into an escrow account for the purposes of building a parking structure for the team. As part of the NHL/CoG MOU, the NHL will assign their rights under that parking agreement (in essence, their rights to direct that $25M to be spent on a garage) to the CoG. The CoG will then control both sides of that agreement and will be able to take the $25M out of the old escrow fund and repurpose it (to spend on the reimbursement of the team's losses).

In other words, instead of building a parking garage for the team, they will use that money for the funding of losses. THe CoG is in essence funding the losses with money that is dedicated to the team anyway. $25M in exchange for $25M. From the CoG point of view, that money was already spent and could not be recouped by the CoG.

AS the CoG has already put $25M in escrow for the NHL, when it takes the assignment of that contract, it will simply replenish the fund from which it was temporarily drawn.

A pretty odd one to pick, Peter. I was spot on on that one. Unlike everyone else up to that point, I was the only one who read the relevant provisions of the COG/NHL extension agreement. My description of the agreement was 100% spot on.

Now, you might argue that they are not replenishing the "enterprise fund" with the $25M in Ellman parking money, but that is not because they could not do so. They simply decided to do another deal with Ellman, and decided to redeploy $12.5M of the funds to that end as well in exchange for more consideration from ellman. They can do so, because their deal with Hulsizer is such that they are going to get their $25M back as well. So, they will replenish the fund with $12.5 M from the Ellman parking escrow money and the rest from the money they are getting back from Hulsizer. Nothing wrong there.

GSC2k2: 04-11-2010, 12:55 AM

Is it your position that they have not already done whatever lobbying they need to do? That is not how it is done. Businessmen do not put a deal together that requires political action and THEN say "well, let's start talking to the politicians."

Again, another odd choice, since I was not wrong in that statement. Every decision of the COG was a foregone conclusion by the time it was voted on.

GSC2k2: 05-01-2010, 11:52 AM

You will not have to say that I am "right". I do not actually think that I have said that they will sell "like hotcakes" or like anything. What I HAVE said is what I also know by experience - when transactions of this nature are contemplated, the parties have gone well down the road of determining financeability before one gets to this stage. THe bond market is beyond imagination in scale - it dwarfs the equities market. A $165M bond issue is bug dust, comparatively speaking. THe market will determine it, certainly. I have not suggested anything to the contrary. My expectation is that the market has already done so.

A third odd choice. i simply described standard practice. Nothing we have heard or read has contradicted this. CErtainly, the fact that GWI took a hail mary pass right before the bonds were going to market supports my statement above. If it were not going down the road, GWI would not have issued their letter.


Now, if you wanted to identify something on which I was wrong, you should identify the error in assuming that GWI would take the political cover that McCain was providing them. I certainly underestimated their zealotry. THAT would be one to call me out on. The above three? I was right on all of them.

 

[GSC2k2*]

....which of course both bothers & frustrates the Hell out of people. Too bad so sad huh?.

i suspect they have been worked on behind the scene for the past several weeks. If I feel like rousing myself, I might outline them for the HF BoH citizenry and see if some discussion could be generated.

 

[mrCoffea*]

Which Canadian media has said the deal is dead? There are several that have commented on the last life of the deal, including the media in Winnipeg. They have repeatedly stated that until a deal with Pheonix is dead, there is no change in this debacle.

Good rant though.

Oh, I don't know, the Canadian radio station whose anchors LITERALLY said, and I quote, "The deal is dead". The same report was then propagated by other publications, until the statement was redacted for being complete ********.

really?

are you actually questioning skepticism in reports of a fourth potential owner coming to the table in a single year?....the failure of the others was not a matter of wealth.....it was a matter of will.

he might not even really be involved....the details are pretty sketchy at this point and everyone is jumping to a lot of conclusions....the report was that the NHL spoke to him, not that he is interested.

maybe he is, but its a bit early to crown him the saviour.....he's not the balkan for goodness sake.

The point of my comment wasn't about what I believe, the point of my comment was the complete hypocrisy shown by certain Winnipeg fans, that one in particular based on the comment of his that I quoted.

The Winnipeg Free spews complete fabrications on a daily basis, based on "anonymous sources in Glendale" and "lawyers that have once dealt with similar situations but aren't involved in any capacity with the phoenix situation yet give out information as if they were". When that stuff gets posted, it gets treated like gospel by the Winnipeg fans. Let's not forget the brilliant "journalism" by Dave Naylor from TSN, that if a person could show the least amount of impartiality he'd win an award for it, giving his dumb opinion pieces every day based that keep clamouring for a team in Winnipeg based on NOTHING. He's the biggest joke in the world of journalism as far as I'm concerned, yet he's employed by TSN somehow. Again, people repost these opinion pieces and treat them like fact.

But when the same Canadian media states that Colangelo might be getting involved, all of a sudden they are skeptical about what is being said because it's an inconvenience.

That my friend is a perfect example of hypocrisy. Either you are skeptical about everything (which is the position I stand on), but you can't just pick and choose what to believe when it comes to rumors, unless you want to be treated like someone whose opinion is irrelevant.

 

[Killion]

i suspect they have been worked on behind the scene for the past several weeks. If I feel like rousing myself, I might outline them for the HF BoH citizenry and see if some discussion could be generated.

Im more than game. If we forget the confusion of one Matthew Hulsizer & the COG we can chat. Cupcakes n' all. That God damn Market is worth Saving. I have a feeling, a hypersensitive sense of Good Will that :it will be so. Never say Die mein freund,

 

[Blue Shakehead]

This may have been asked and analysed a hundred times already but GWI is presenting the COGs January 25th Amendments to the AMULA agreement as proof that the City of Glendale already owns the parking rights.

I've skimmed through the agreement (albeit quickly), and all it seems to show is that the City of Glendale owns the parking lot / spaces - not the rights to charge for them. Is that right?

If thats the case and we agree that the parking rights are an asset in bankruptcy that will be assumed by the NHL/Hulsizer in the transaction, then it appears that the "grossly disproportionate" test under the Gift Clause comes down to:

1) the value of the parking, adverting and arena put option versus the $100M in bonds (ie. if its deemed to be worth $100M, its not a subsidy. If its deemed to be worth only $70M -- is the additional $30M "grossly disproportionate"?); and

2) the value of the arena management fees and whether they constitue a subsidy (even if they are designed to reimburse arena expenses).

My guess is that the CoG will have a harder time justifying #2, considering that by any measure - $17.5 M/year seems to be way above FMV.

If this is a rehash, I apologize. My main question is about whether the Jan 25th Agreement is a smoking gun for GWI or not.

 

[TheLegend]

Who cares about the Bombers or Katz wanting public money. They don't live where a gift clause exists making it illegal. Change your law or your argument.

Then you admit there's a touch of hypocracy going on here when people argue wanting the team to move based upon a their personal interpretation of law and nothing else, no??

 

[Potrzebie]

That my friend is a perfect example of hypocrisy. Either you are skeptical about everything (which is the position I stand on), but you can't just pick and choose what to believe when it comes to rumors, unless you want to be treated like someone whose opinion is irrelevant.

Not quite. Hockey fans who clamored for their government to prop up their own failing hockey franchise (Winnipeg 1995) while crying foul about another city doing the same for theirs (Glendale 2011) would be an example of hypocrisy.

"Picking and choosing what to believe when it comes to rumours" would be more confirmation bias than anything.

You should at least try to get your labels correct when attacking other posters. Y'know, unless you want to be treated like someone whose opinion is irrelevant.

 

[TheLegend]

However, the Bombers are owned by the Community. (ie taxpayers); therefore, the owners are putting the money in. Therefore, it is irrelevant.

A Canadian version of the Packers, eh? Honestly didn't know that, so thank you.

 

[TheLegend]

Which Canadian media has said the deal is dead? There are several that have commented on the last life of the deal, including the media in Winnipeg. They have repeatedly stated that until a deal with Pheonix is dead, there is no change in this debacle.

Good rant though.

Based upon hundreds of posts made in this forum (and I am being conservative), tbe interpretation has been that's exactly what they've said.

You really want to go down that road?

 

[AllByDesign]

The Winnipeg Free spews complete fabrications on a daily basis, based on "anonymous sources in Glendale" and "lawyers that have once dealt with similar situations but aren't involved in any capacity with the phoenix situation yet give out information as if they were". When that stuff gets posted, it gets treated like gospel by the Winnipeg fans. Let's not forget the brilliant "journalism" by Dave Naylor from TSN, that if a person could show the least amount of impartiality he'd win an award for it, giving his dumb opinion pieces every day based that keep clamouring for a team in Winnipeg based on NOTHING. He's the biggest joke in the world of journalism as far as I'm concerned, yet he's employed by TSN somehow.

I believe you are getting too wound up on this point. In all fairness, media is... well media. Grand standing, over drawn prognostications, baseless diatribe. I find it difficult to believe that you have never tuned into American media, when running a story. I think the similarities would shock you.

Dave Naylor, is a respected reporter BTW. I don't believe the assertions made about him follow any connections to reality.

 

[AllByDesign]

Then you admit there's a touch of hypocracy going on here when people argue wanting the team to move based upon a their personal interpretation of law and nothing else, no??

It is more than hypocritical. It is more than evident where it has been derrived from though. As emotional of a topic this has been for a lot of the people from Arizona and Manitoba, I have found the entire scenario fascinating.

I have noticed some recent talk about who is right and who is wrong. When the thread has finally extinguished iself like a candle that had burned itself to the bottom of the wick, there will be no right or wrong. There will only be the end result. We have had a variety of parties that have made efforts to further their agenda, and have used creative means by which to accomplish this. It is a great excercise in business, and a struggle to what I have always understood about economics.

 

[Killion]

You really want to go down that road?

Ya I personally do. Im p-od' with yer elected officials,,,,,

I.I don't believe the assertions made about him follow any connections to reality.

Reality is as you know ABD' whatever you decide to make of it.

 

[kdb209]

When the thread has finally extinguished iself like a candle that had burned itself to the bottom of the wick, there will be no right or wrong. There will only be the end result.

Why do I envision an Arthur C Clarke / The Nine Billion Names of God kind of ending.

"Well, the last thread is finally closed" said Fugu with a click.

“Look,” whispered Lady Stanley, and Fugu lifted her eyes to heaven. (There is always a last time for everything.)

Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out.

 

[Dado]

Then you admit there's a touch of hypocracy going on here when people argue wanting the team to move based upon a their personal interpretation of law and nothing else, no??

Arguing that is hypocrisy is like arguing Mother Nature is a hypocrite because she wants an electron to be in two places at the same time.

People fight for what they want, and bend arguments accordingly. It's not hypocrisy, it's life.