Phoenix XXXIV: Project Mayhem

[davemac1313]

Don't ever remember a Sportsnet Central channel, but Winnipeg's regional viewing area is rumoured to include all of Manitoba, northern Ontario (likely up to Thunder Bay) and some/all of Saskatchewan. I would also add Nunavut to that, based on geography. Winnipeg will be getting it's own area, not sharing what Edmonton/Calgary currently have 3 ways.

Would be nice for Northern Ontario to not be Ontario, I have no love for the Leafs, yet that is my only choice. Pretty sad that a Hockey fan has to choose between Desperate Housewives and Desperate Leafs.....In this no mans land, we should be able to pick one of the regionals not Leafs or nothing

 

[Killion]

.....In this no mans land, we should be able to pick one of the regionals not Leafs or nothing

Because of the timing & costs to broadcast, audience size etc, we get a heaping helping of the Leafs clear out to Vancouver Island as well on HNIC, usually followed by a Canucks game however if their on the road in the US, we'll get the odd Oilers or Flames game. The one constant however are the Leafs, causing no end of grief for many. If a satellite dish is impracticable, about the only other option you'd have are live streaming games via the internet or a subscription to the NHL network if available in your area. Should the Coyotes move to Winnipeg, which looks more than likely, I know you guys pick up stations from there so you'll likely have that option as an alternative to Leafs games though likely through Sportsnet or TSN or possibly the local CBC affiliate. Hard to say exactly how HNIC will handle it.

 

[davemac1313]

Because of the timing & costs to broadcast, audience size etc, we get a heaping helping of the Leafs clear out to Vancouver Island as well on HNIC, usually followed by a Canucks game however if their on the road in the US, we'll get the odd Oilers or Flames game. The one constant however are the Leafs, causing no end of grief for many. If a satellite dish is impracticable, about the only other option you'd have are live streaming games via the internet or a subscription to the NHL network if available in your area. Should the Coyotes move to Winnipeg, which looks more than likely, I know you guys pick up stations from there so you'll likely have that option as an alternative to Leafs games though likely through Sportsnet or TSN or possibly the local CBC affiliate. Hard to say exactly how HNIC will handle it.

I have Satellite, but unfortunately we are considered Ontario, so Sportsnet and TSN only show the Leafs, all other teams are substituted "Alternate programming" usually repeats of Sports center or Hockey Central or my favorite, the black screen of nothing for 3 hours. We can get NHL Network but I struggle to justify the expense when the team I have most allegiance to, has been in a 16 year hiatus.
In nowhereville I get 4 Sportsnet options and Tsn 1,2 and Tsn Montreal, except for national broadcasts, all other hockey is blacked out, except the leafs. My thought is that in markets such as this and Manitoba, with no "home" team, we should be able to choose one of the feeds, not be force fed the leafs. Calgary is closer than Toronto...yet I am deemed Toronto market. If I don't watch at all, the league/network gets no payback. Better for the BOH (back on topic) that I watch something and not nothing...(tongue in cheek Leafs shot) I buy all the Sportsnets as a package...but can only watch hockey on 1...

 

[davemac1313]

Regardless, the only sources we have on this are Sunnucks (who is batting something like .140 in this whole affair) and Healy (who is batting .0001 lifetime).

Gotta agree on the Sunnocks opinion, he started out like a sure thing for the rookie of the year, but has been so far off for the past 6-8 months. Not sure who his sources are, but they seem more fanlike than factual. His stories seem much more speculation, akin to overheard sports-bar conversations, than based on true developments or real information. It's like he wants to report the story but he only has 1 buddy that tells him anything and if buddy has nothing he imagines scenarios and tells them to Sunnocks. For me, he has lost all credible value in this story.

 

[Killion]

We can get NHL Network but I struggle to justify the expense when the team I have most allegiance to, has been in a 16 year hiatus.

Then just go to The History of Hockey threads on these boards. At the top in the sticky section, you'll find a link to watch all of the Original 6 & all manner of games that you may have missed. Thats what I do. Lets go Living in the Past. Its a riot.

 

[GSC2k2*]

This argument loses me as well.

What difference does it make what "social" policies the GWI does and does not support?So unless all Coyotes fans are liberals and ONLY conservatives want them to leave, I really don't understand this argument.

... because that, and only that, is what is driving this entire issue.

I know that many relocationists like to think it's all about the constitution. That is willful blindless by people who will support anyone and anything that they perceive will benefit their singleminded objective.

Mod: deleted.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Don't ever remember a Sportsnet Central channel, but Winnipeg's regional viewing area is rumoured to include all of Manitoba, northern Ontario (likely up to Thunder Bay) and some/all of Saskatchewan. I would also add Nunavut to that, based on geography. Winnipeg will be getting it's own area, not sharing what Edmonton/Calgary currently have 3 ways.

In order to get its own territory, a theoretical Manitoba franchise would be required to indemnify both Calgary and Edmonton (who have just signed a new and presumably lucrative 10 year deal with Sportsnet that includes the MB market) for the loss of a material portion of the TV territory for those two teams.

I would guess those indemnification payments would be in the range of several millions of dollars each, and possibly well into 8 figures each.

 

[buyinnow]

... because that, and only that, is what is driving this entire issue.

I know that many relocationists like to think it's all about the constitution. That is willful blindless by people who will support anyone and anything that they perceive will benefit their singleminded objective.

Way too broad here. I'd bet alot of people from a lot of different political spectrums don't approve of their government giving a private business a huge subsidy.

 

[GSC2k2*]

So you just confirmed that the deal was agreed to in May which supports the claims made on this forum and others. The fact the agreement was not signed until later is irrelevant. I am not sure we know the exact date the money was transferred; however, I do remember discussions regarding bank statements being released.

Wow, either you are not very good at this debating thing, or you are being wilfully obstinate in refusing to read the facts.

THe fact is that COG only authorized management to proceed with a deal (although a contract was not put forward).

The deal didn't get signed until June 28, 2010. That is not "irrelevant". Let me repeat: no financial institution will accept money as an escrow agent until agreements are signed and in place. They will NEVER do it. It is as simple as that.

"The claims made in this forum and others" are that WPG was "15 mnutes away from getting a team" when the COG averted the team leaving by producing $25M on Friday, May 21, 2010. Nothing more, nothing less.

Since no financial institution will accept money as an escrow agent until documents are signed, the above version could not have happened because the documents were not signed until 6 weeks later.

I am not sure if I can explain it any more clearly. Are you still going to pretend that the evidence i have provided actually supports the fairy tale?

 

[Jet]

Way too broad here. I'd bet alot of people from a lot of different political spectrums don't approve of their government giving a private business a huge subsidy.

Is someone now claiming because Manitoba is a socialist state, we should not want an NHL hockey team because of the values of the right wing taxpayers group that may indirectly cause the team to move here?

We have reached another level of lunacy today, my friends.

 

[Potrzebie]

Mod: deleted

That being said, I do agree with the irony of hockey fans who back in 1995 would have gladly seen their government at the time pay any price to keep their hockey team now decrying another city who when faced with the same issues, chooses to. People who would, no doubt, see the GWI as their mortal enemy on almost any other issue.

 

[Jet]

That being said, I do agree with the irony of hockey fans who back in 1995 would have gladly seen their government at the time pay any price to keep their hockey team now decrying another city who when faced with the same issues, chooses to. People who would, no doubt, see the GWI as their mortal enemy on almost any other issue.

Well said and totally correct. It just goes to show just how much hockey means to people.

Also, it is why I hold no ill will towards our AZ friends who hate the GWI and attack them at every turn. If it were my team and someone was potentially forcing them to leave, I would be the very same way.

 

[Brodie]

Is someone now claiming because Manitoba is a socialist state, we should not want an NHL hockey team because of the values of the right wing taxpayers group that may indirectly cause the team to move here?

We have reached another level of lunacy today, my friends.

No, it's a reaction to the semi-deification of GWI and Darcy Olsen you see not only here but on virtually every Jets site.

 

[Killion]

Is someone now claiming because Manitoba is a socialist state, we should not want an NHL hockey team because of the values of the right wing taxpayers group that may indirectly cause the team to move here?

No, the poster is not so simply stating that theres an element of hypocrisy stemming from some, not all but some of the northerly posters in their critiques of the COG's preambulations in structuring the deal in the way that they did, based on Manitobas' own track record with respect to governmental largesse', subsidies & maternal proclivities. At odds with the GWI's core beliefs. There is absolutely no reason to take offense to this observation, so cool your jets...

 

[peter sullivan]

Would be nice for Northern Ontario to not be Ontario, I have no love for the Leafs, yet that is my only choice. Pretty sad that a Hockey fan has to choose between Desperate Housewives and Desperate Leafs.....In this no mans land, we should be able to pick one of the regionals not Leafs or nothing

you can bank on northern ontario being part of the sportsnet coverage for the new winnipeg team....

 

[C77]

I tend to agree with what I have seen Killion write here.

I consider myself a traditionalist....and yet believe that Phoenix should be saved.

Firstly, the league has too few teams out west as it is. Moving a team from one of the biggest U.S. metropolitan areas in the entire country (that happens to be in the west) is short-term good, but long-term it's foolhardy.

From a business point of view everyone is going to say "but these Winnipeg owners have so much money"...yea what happens in 10 years if they want to sell? What happens if something unforeseen happens with the health of the owners?

To me the building and owners are secondary factors compared to the long-term potential of a market....and from a business point of view the NHL has been trying to do the right thing and although of course it rankles the population of Winnipeg, it is a good thing that Bettman has done his best not to abandon the Phoenix market and its fans.

So of course from emotion I would love to see the Jets and Whalers return, but I perfectly understand the logic of why Phoenix has gotten such a long leash.

From wiki....The population of the Phoenix metropolitan area increased by 45.3% from 1990 through 2000....The long-term potential is there and is worth fighting for. The damage of 15 years of bad teams and bad ownership in a new market doesn't go away overnight.

I should also note that I do not believe it is right to subsidize a private industry with public money....and if the final deal is still based on that...then I would not support it.

 

[peter sullivan]

... because that, and only that, is what is driving this entire issue.

I know that many relocationists like to think it's all about the constitution. That is willful blindless by people who will support anyone and anything that they perceive will benefit their singleminded objective.

My post above shed a little more light on this point, particularly when it comes to GWI supporters from a particular province.

i will agree with your assessment....if the roles were reversed all the winnipeggers who are so aghast at what glendale is doing would fully support their own government doing the same....most did 15 years ago.

this is all about the desire for a hockey team....principled discussion goes out the window.

...and to those who believe that the new team in winnipeg will be completely a free market entity, they should refrain from throwing stones at the COG until we see exactly what mechanisms have been negotiated in winnipeg....not much gets done in manitoba without the government involved somewhere.....there are TIFF zones, parkade incentives and much more all lined up nicely.....this will surely be exploited to the maximum by TNSE knowing the hunger for hockey in the city and the political points any government will score being known as the ones that 'brought the jets back'....there is a provincial election in the fall after all.

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

The problem is, it's not about what should or shouldn't happen and it's not about who deserves a team and who doesn't deserve one.

It's all about money. It's about who has it and who is willing to spend it on the Coyotes/Jets franchise.

Right now, no one in Arizona is willing to spend it and someone in Winnipeg is.

 

[southpaw24]

I tend to agree with what I have seen Killion write here.

I consider myself a traditionalist....and yet believe that Phoenix should be saved.

Firstly, the league has too few teams out west as it is. Moving a team from one of the biggest U.S. metropolitan areas in the entire country (that happens to be in the west) is short-term good, but long-term it's foolhardy.

From a business point of view everyone is going to say "but these Winnipeg owners have so much money"...yea what happens in 10 years if they want to sell? What happens if something unforeseen happens with the health of the owners?

To me the building and owners are secondary factors compared to the long-term potential of a market....and from a business point of view the NHL has been trying to do the right thing and although of course it rankles the population of Winnipeg, it is a good thing that Bettman has done his best not to abandon the Phoenix market and its fans.

So of course from emotion I would love to see the Jets and Whalers return, but I perfectly understand the logic of why Phoenix has gotten such a long leash.

From wiki....The population of the Phoenix metropolitan area increased by 45.3% from 1990 through 2000....The long-term potential is there and is worth fighting for. The damage of 15 years of bad teams and bad ownership in a new market doesn't go away overnight.

I should also note that I do not believe it is right to subsidize a private industry with public money....and if the final deal is still based on that...then I would not support it.

I tend to agree with this post, Its all a matter of culture. This whole debacle is very debateable from both sides and both have very good arguments. I want the jets as much as anyone else in manitoba and would love to see them come back. When I first started following this topic I was very biased towards the team moving to the Peg. Now after reading some info that posters have provided in this saga of threads I am not as biased anymore.

The truth is it all comes down to dollars and cents, it is a business transaction, and whether the deal is legal or not.

Either way the situation ends up whether the Jets return or the Yotes stay, I truly believe it will not hurt the NHL as much as people say it will. People will go back to cheering for their adoptive teams (in the Jets case) and supporting their team in the yotes case. The amount of people that say they will not support the NHL if the decision is not in their favour is in all reality an insignificant % of the fanbase.

Also regarding the bolded part: No love for the Nordiques

 

[bodybreak]

Agree with everything said about Manitoba & auto insurance, liquor control board, universal health care, etc... but has there ever been a Manitoba govt willing to give $100+ million to private enterprise with a track record of losing $20 - $30 million each year over 15 years? I think that would be enough to make any Manitoban bristle, even if it was happening at home. On the other hand, our hydro and auto insurance is great, because, by all paying in to the same pot, and having it government regulated, we get rebates if it turns out either corporation has misjudged its expenses vs revenues and ends up with a large profit.

 

[crazed323]

... because that, and only that, is what is driving this entire issue.

I know that many relocationists like to think it's all about the constitution. That is willful blindless by people who will support anyone and anything that they perceive will benefit their singleminded objective.
Mod: deleted.

From the first time I read one of your posts, you have been so extrordinarily single minded, that one could almost predict your response. As a lawyer are you not supposed to be able to argue both points of view in a case. You really don't have a choice what side of the battle that you come in on, granted you could just not work on it. Your posts are not as objective as you may think. You start with your result and work your way back to prove your single minded objective. I would love to read your opinions on things if only you could refrain from being so biased for a day. Take a day and post from the point of view those against the deal. Maybe you surprise yourself.

Mod: deleted.

 

[peter sullivan]

the government did buy a big chunk of the jets in an attempt to keep them from leaving....the efforts to save the jets were only slightly less ridiculous than those to save the coyotes, when seen from an outsider's perspective.

 

[pucka lucka]

So what exactly does the real or imagined hypocrisy of some faceless group of Manitobans have to do with anything? Yeah, let's put up with more obfuscation.

So, we've established that emotional fanatics aren't always rational and logically consistent. That's some ground breaking insight right there. Why do the rules around here allow for this silly fallacious nonsense?

 

[AllByDesign]

I would like to address the presumed political aspect of Manitoba, because Gsc is missing the history aspect of the province, and is ignoring the present political landscape, but it is well off topic. I do invite GSC to invest a bit of reading time into the development of the prairie provinces. I had a similar point of view based on assumption when I moved here from Southern Ontario. The reality is that it is a conservative culture that had to adopt certain socialistic programs predicated out of necessity and survival.

 

[Killion]

I tend to agree with what I have seen Killion write here.
I consider myself a traditionalist....and yet believe that Phoenix should be saved.

Absolutely, and thanks. Frankly, I think the biggest problem we have here is that the architects of this deal have been too cute by half & seriously over-complicated its execution. They have created the obstacles themselves when a simpler & far more direct methodology coulda/shoulda been deployed. . In any sports or entertainment transaction quite specifically, if your not constantly thinking Murphys' Law, mentally telegraphing ahead, fully & completely prepared for virtually any and all contingencies, on a high dollar property like this one, you are absolutely screwed before you even start. Im not going to bore you with a blow by blow recitation on when & where the COG went wrong, they did so fundamentally right from the start, right out of the chute. They are now knee deep in alligators with what shouldve' been a minor gnat in the GWI, easily swatted away. You lose sight of the goal when all you see are obstacles, an absolutely damning position to be in when their self generated. I doubt if theres even the time for the COG & Hulsizer to rectify matters, they seem unwilling to look in the mirror & re-invent themselves & the deal, something that takes a lot of guts, and I dont see any on display here.

As a lawyer are you not supposed to be able to argue both points of view in a case. You really don't have a choice what side of the battle that you come in on, granted you could just not work on it. Your posts are not as objective as you may think.

OK crazed, Im not about to rush to the defence of another posters intellectual integrity here but you really are going to far. First off, many posters on these boards are lawyers who prefer anonymity for the very reasons you criticize those who are actually "out of the closet" so to speak. They come here to post as a form of relaxation & entertainment, whereby they are permitted to express their opinions freely for or against any given subject just like everyone else. They DO have that choice here, whereas in their professional lives they may not. Secondly, whether your a lawyer or not, any thoughtful person will give full objective thought & consideration to the alternate point of view & draw their own conclusions, make a decision, pick a side or not, argue/discuss respectfully & considerately. When and as new details emerge as in this complicated matter and someone decides to alter or change their opinions accordingly, it serves no purpose to crucify that individual, hold them to a higher standard than anyone else based on profession. Enough said.