Phoenix LXXIV: Be Seeing You

[Puckschmuck*]

Not being argumentitive here Ps, but the NHL's been loathe to make announcements of that sort (with exception of Atlanta-Winnipeg of course) actually during their showcase Playoffs. You could be quite correct though, given the magnitude of this mess of a situation. Timings irrelevant. But I suspect not. Id guess they wait until the Stanley Cup's been awarded in June, then let it be known whats what. Perhaps during the lull between end of regular season and commencement of the cup run should the Coyotes fail to qualify (and if they do make it in, absolutely no announcements until the SC's been won), but during it? Not so sure about that.... this of course now leads into logistics if indeed the teams on the move. I cant see how on Earth Seattle could possibly be ready & accommodate a team, its a gamble, could backfire & blow up in their faces. Theres just so many details involved. The only logical relo option is Quebec or, they stay put. NHL collects $6M in Mgmnt Fee's, perhaps then announces they'll give it to December 31st to get a deal done or 110% for sure, teams gone.

I highly doubt QC nor Seattle will be as ready to take in a team as Winnipeg was. So I'm thinking they need as much time as possible to prepare to enter the league, which is why I think an announcement will come within a week or three of their regular season (sorry, I'm not going to jinx this long long overdue climax moment with the dreaded *** weeks curse statement )

 

[Killion]

So, have any of the people who absolutely believe the chances of Quebec City getting the Coyotes via relocation are 0 come up with an alternative US venue beyond Seattle, Kansas City and Houston? Those all have issues or time delays on them.

How about Cleveland? Quicken Loans Arena. Has an NHL ring to it. Home of the Cavaliers & Lake Erie Monsters of the AHL who seem to be pushing 15,000+ in attendance on average. Might help rather than harm the Blue Jackets in having a natural nearby rival.... Portland Oregon if suddenly Bruce Allen's changed his tune.... Des Moines, Omaha, Tulsa, Milwaukee. Several spots with arenas'. According to Bettman "not a month goes bye I dont calls from an interested city or buyer" so really, who the heck knows? Could be so far off radar we havent got a clue.

 

[South Florida Canuck]

With Columbus winning tonight, a regulation loss tomorrow to the Wings will all but eliminate the Coyotes from postseason contention. Will we perhaps hear an announcement then?

 

[Killion]

I highly doubt QC nor Seattle will be as ready to take in a team as Winnipeg was. So I'm thinking they need as much time as possible to prepare to enter the league, which is why I think an announcement will come within a week or three of their regular season (sorry, I'm not going to jinx this long long overdue climax moment with the dreaded *** weeks curse statement )

Ya well thats just it. You guys had at least most of the infrastructure in-place with the AHL Moose, got a good head start on upgrades to the MTS, sold out & crashed the system with ticket sales in about 3.5 minutes and yet even still, full-on 24/7 from June through October. I dont see how anyone can reasonably expect to pull it off from a dead start as is the case in Seattle; and Quebec, sure the Colisee's just about game-ready but the staffing, sponsorships, just a huge number of details & logistics to address and they'd need to get going no later than May, early June at the latest.

With Columbus winning tonight, a regulation loss tomorrow to the Wings will all but eliminate the Coyotes from postseason contention. Will we perhaps hear an announcement then?

Thats what Im thinkin. If their eliminated, the lull between the end of the season & the Playoffs as good a time as any to pull the plug if thats what their going to do. Gives QC (Im certain thats where this teams headed if their moving) a bit of a head start, which they really could use. If it drags on & out thereafter, just no idea. I cant see them wanting to make an announcement during the playoffs but here I could well be wrong. After the playoffs, tick tock. Nightmare for Quebec. A happy one I suppose but still. Full speed. If the clubs staying another year, no rush. The announcement simply informing one & all the Citys paying the NHL $6M, the NHL's giving Gosbee et al more time to finalize a deal.

 

[Fugu]

So, have any of the people who absolutely believe the chances of Quebec City getting the Coyotes via relocation are 0 come up with an alternative US venue beyond Seattle, Kansas City and Houston? Those all have issues or time delays on them.

I don't like your question/conclusion.

We don't have to have yet other options. QC, to me, doesn't make sense due to the realignment (and I disagree with those who have disagreed with me about that point). I honestly thought QC was it until I saw the realignment plan-- as far as anything happening within the next 2 years.

 

[Killion]

I honestly thought QC was it until I saw the realignment plan-- as far as anything happening within the next 2 years.

I havent really looked at that, studied it, but is it absolutely unworkable or whats the deal there? Cant one of the Eastern Conference teams be shifted to accommodate Quebec or is that impossible? Just doesnt strike me on the surface as being all that problematical, that it would somehow eliminate QC altogether no?... Im just not so sure thats an accurate read... kinda Hoodoo like.... drawing a circle in the dirt, throw a few Possum bones out... read em.... ever tried that?

 

[Fugu]

I havent really looked at that, studied it, but is it absolutely unworkable or whats the deal there? Cant one of the Eastern Conference teams be shifted to accommodate Quebec or is that impossible? Just doesnt strike me on the surface as being all that problematical, that it would somehow eliminate QC altogether no?...

My way of looking at it is simply that the NHL, obviously, has known for some time now that they will have to do something with Phoenix-- inclusive of staying where they are.

The NHLPA also has to approve any realignment, in addition to the BOG, not that I foresee a huge issue with an approval if a team were to be placed in QC.

What is mainly of interest to me was hearing that the Wings STH interest had spiked sharply, especially from Canada, once the new realignment was announced. The Wings are not going back to the West. Why would they agree to it after years of lobbying to go East? Detroit needs the financial injection from being in the Eastern Conference. The fan base there is Eastern-centric, traditionalist, and in the Eastern time zone (as you know).

Where does that leave us? The Western Conference needs two additional teams just to even out the odds and team numbers. Phoenix may or may not be viable, but let's assume it is not. A move East forces the league to yet again realign (makes them look silly, as well)-- and they still have to add two more teams; and it potentially pisses Detroit off, and undermines them financially. Why approve this alignment if they know they have to tweak it within 1-2 yrs?

The ideal case for the league is to keep the team in Phoenix, and add a Seattle and Portland or Vegas or KC or Houston expansion teams. If expansion isn't imminent within say 2-3 years (two new teams) -- and Phoenix is not viable -- then moving the Coyotes to Seattle seems the most logical solution given the NBA's plans.

Edit: And yes, I understand all the chatter about where the team will play in the interim, but I think the NHL would more likely just keep them where they are and wait than move them somewhere they're not interested in having a team. Oh, and I think we use fish bones up here in the Pac NW, don't we?

 

[DopeyFish]

as NHL has said... they will modify if they need to in case of a franchise relocation

this means columbus or detroit possibly staying in the west

if they can't do it for next year, there's always quebec in the west

which would be hilarious for travel but whatever

 

[Dado]

So, have any of the people who absolutely believe the chances of Quebec City getting the Coyotes via relocation are 0 come up with an alternative US venue beyond Seattle, Kansas City and Houston? Those all have issues or time delays on them.

They can stay in Glendale for another season until Key Arena is ready, either this fall or next.

 

[sawchuk1971]

How about Cleveland? Quicken Loans Arena. Has an NHL ring to it. Home of the Cavaliers & Lake Erie Monsters of the AHL who seem to be pushing 15,000+ in attendance on average. Might help rather than harm the Blue Jackets in having a natural nearby rival.... Portland Oregon if suddenly Bruce Allen's changed his tune.... Des Moines, Omaha, Tulsa, Milwaukee. Several spots with arenas'. According to Bettman "not a month goes bye I dont calls from an interested city or buyer" so really, who the heck knows? Could be so far off radar we havent got a clue.

sorry......cleveland can't support a NHL team here... even the sport talk show hosts in this town don't even like hockey...

the city has trouble attracting fans to watch the indians....

and lastly, its a browns football town here....the browns new owner, jimmy haslem, is just recently being investigated by the FBI, because of over some shady deal over rebates in his truck stop business...

that story received more press in cleveland last week than the bombing in boston...

 

[Fugu]

as NHL has said... they will modify if they need to in case of a franchise relocation

this means columbus or detroit possibly staying in the west

if they can't do it for next year, there's always quebec in the west

which would be hilarious for travel but whatever

I'd be more concerned about keeping Detroit financially strong than accommodating QC. Then again, if the NHL "really" wants to put yet another team in the NE quadrant, where it's already solidly entrenched, I'd think the best choice would greater Toronto.

That would be a big league move.

 

[Killion]

My way of looking at it is simply that the NHL, obviously, has known for some time now that they will have to do something with Phoenix-- inclusive of staying where they are....

Alright well that makes sense, and beyond Detroit there really isnt anyone else that can be shifted... bit of a conundrum that. Would seem to suggest a holding pattern might indeed be in order as surely Seattle's not ready at the moment, Key's going to need some serious work & wont be ready for at least a year.

 

[knorthern knight]

I'd be more concerned about keeping Detroit financially strong than accommodating QC. Then again, if the NHL "really" wants to put yet another team in the NE quadrant, where it's already solidly entrenched, I'd think the best choice would greater Toronto.

That would be a big league move.

No arena; and no, I don't expect 2 teams in ACC. Copps (Hamilton) is in Seattle's situation; needs a bunch of work.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Were not talking about the RFP Tommy, were talking about an earlier Report provided by Beacon upon Michael Reinsdorfs recommendation to Ed Beasley that they be retained to provide an Arena Assessment while Jerry Moyes still owned the club. The RFP on the surface looks perfectly kosher & is in fact well thought out & drafted. So far so good. However, in light of Beacons track record in California, Texas, Florida & elsewhere, and in consideration of what they produced for forty eight grand over 3 days 4 years ago, Im not comfortable with them, havent been for some time, and for the sake of complete & total transparency, that second guessing & suspicions dont rear their ugly heads it wouldve been far more prudent to have employed someone else to have crafted the RFP, and we dont know to what extent they'll be acting as Gatekeepers from that point & here on out. How much Glendale will be relying upon their advice & guidance....

I dont trust them. Bottom line.

I was not referring to the RFP quality other than they seem to have done a good job on that. Also, you are so completely wrong on the 3 or 4 day remark concerning the 50k contract it is laughable. Do you really think all those interviews and the writing of the document and anything else was done in 3 days? NOTHING like that gets done in only 3 days.

How about Cleveland? Quicken Loans Arena. Has an NHL ring to it. Home of the Cavaliers & Lake Erie Monsters of the AHL who seem to be pushing 15,000+ in attendance on average. Might help rather than harm the Blue Jackets in having a natural nearby rival.... Portland Oregon if suddenly Bruce Allen's changed his tune.... Des Moines, Omaha, Tulsa, Milwaukee. Several spots with arenas'. According to Bettman "not a month goes bye I dont calls from an interested city or buyer" so really, who the heck knows? Could be so far off radar we havent got a clue.

You need to check your facts before posting. Lake Erie averaged 7,680 this year, 7,845 last year, 6,568 the year before, 6,484 in 09/10, 5,934 in 08-09, 5,974 in 07/08, and the last year they had the Cleveland Barons (05/06) they drew 3,548. Not exactly 15,000.

I don't like your question/conclusion.

We don't have to have yet other options. QC, to me, doesn't make sense due to the realignment (and I disagree with those who have disagreed with me about that point). I honestly thought QC was it until I saw the realignment plan-- as far as anything happening within the next 2 years.

Realignment can also be changed or not. Travel is more equitable now with everyone playing a home and home against each team.

No arena; and no, I don't expect 2 teams in ACC. Copps (Hamilton) is in Seattle's situation; needs a bunch of work.

When is the new Markham arena going to start/be completed?

 

[enarwpg]

Pretty cazy isnt it? Hard to say what the leagues' going to do. If the Coyotes do manage to make the playoff's I doubt the NHL will say anything at all, maintain radio silence until the Stanley Cup Finals are done & over with, as they wouldnt want the negativity in some quarters that the announcement of a relocation would engender re-directing peoples attentions on their problems. Alternatively, if the Coyotes dont make the playoffs', its possible they might move them during the lull between the end of the regular season & the start of the playoffs or alternatively just wait none the less. The only other possibility is that they just stay pat, renew their AMUL through 13/14, ask for and will likely receive the $6M in Arena Management Fee's Glendales earmarked for them regardless, announce that their still hopeful a deal can get done, possibly even give it a Deadline of December 31st. One final option, Suspension of the Franchise does exist however that I think is beyond remote. A PR nightmare. Dispersal Draft, carrying & servicing the debt until such time as they sell the franchise to whomever.... or maybe by some miracle Gosbee, Pastor or Mystery Buyer #4 miraculously rides in at the last minute & saves the day. Absolutely no idea.

Having read, but not remembering a lot, of the ongoing saga of the Coyotes, the attempt by the CoG, the NHL and numerous tire kickers to keep the team in Glendale, it seems to me that you would be the ideal person to ask the following (due to, in my mind, you having the 'collective history / memory' of most things relating to the Phoenix Coyotes).....

So, that being .....do you remember if the following report (and the source document(s) from which CBTE's understanding was based on) were discussed and what was determined regarding Non-Relocation and the penalty mentioned in article 1. on page 9 of the report but more importantly is that penalty for real or was / has it been extinguished by some slight of hand by the NHL / CoG ???? ...

The Market Valuation Report on Arena Lease and Management Agreement, the Use and Non-Relocation Agreement and Agreement of Assignment, Reconveyance, Modification and Abrogation of Rigths Regarding the NHL Coyotes Hockey Team and Jobing.com Arena

prepared for: The City of Glendale, Arizona by CBRE Consulting

page 9

II. Proposed Transaction Documents

Rights being acquired by the City:

It is our understanding that, in connection with the Transaction Document, the City is acquiring the following rights from the Arena Manager and the Team:

1. Non-relocation Rights. An obligation to continue to play all of the home NHL hockey games at the Jobing.com Arena (the "Arena") located in the City of Glendate until lthe thirtiet (30th) day after the last day of the Full Hockey season commencing in 2040 (the "Non-Relocation Obligation") pursuant to the Non-Relocation Agreement. In the event the Team breaches the Non-Relocation Obligation the Team is required to pay liquidated damages starting at $290,000,000 in the first year and ending at $25,000,000 in the final year (the "Liquidated Damages")​

source: http://www.azcentral.com/ic/community/pdf/glendale-coyotes-CBRE-report.pdf

 

[Fugu]

Realignment can also be changed or not. Travel is more equitable now with everyone playing a home and home against each team.

No kidding? Like the realignment they just approved.


Detroit's finances will be affected by a move back if they indeed are allowed to move to the NE Division.

 

[MotorMaster]

Will see soon enough, there is a lot of going on's behind the scenes and IMO QC probably got some assurances before they broke ground on a new arena.

 

[Killion]

Heres a link in response to the first part of your post;

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=64176581&postcount=701

I was not referring to the RFP quality other than they seem to have done a good job on that.... You need to check your facts before posting...

... and for the last part of your post, Lake Erie had 14,000 & change for a game just the other night. I was simply generalizing that some of the top AHL franchises for all we know could be under-radar as possible NHL markets be it relo / expansion. Another poster above who I assume is a resident of Cleveland doesnt think an NHL franchise would work there, however, Ive read from others that they think it would. If they can draw a crowd (infrequently but enough times to impress) of 14,000+, certainly would appear to have some potential, and of course the city has a long & rich history in the sport. Im neither advocating for or against, just responding to a posters question as to "where beyond Houston, KC & Seattle could the NHL go"... You got a problem with that?

 

[Killion]

So, that being .....do you remember if the following report (and the source document(s) from which CBTE's understanding was based on) were discussed and what was determined regarding Non-Relocation and the penalty mentioned in article 1. on page 9 of the report but more importantly is that penalty for real or was / has it been extinguished by some slight of hand by the NHL / CoG ???? ...

Well, I hope Ive got that right, as I believe this document was from the Hulsizer Chapter's of this Saga pursuant to the Parking Bond play, the section you refer to, the Lease Agreement, as it was never executed is completely null & void, irrelevant. Two years ago, the NHL & Glendale signed an AMUL which is effectively a 10yr Lease for the arena renewable year by year at the NHL's discretion. There is no penalty whatsoever for their leaving, while the Arena Management Fee's, $25M in 2010-11 & $25M for 2011-12 were agreed to separate from the AMUL though at close arms length as without those monies being paid, the NHL had threatened to just up & leave. Should be noted as well that the NHL said in their presentations that the monies likely wouldnt be required, simply insurance policies, that a deal was expected to close quickly with Hulsizer in 2010, with "prospective buyers & very interested parties" in 2011. Both years Glendale believing that if not paid, the team was gone to Winnipeg.... oh, and indeed, the CBRE (Ellis) Report was based largely on yet an earlier report known as the Walker Report. That too can be found in kdb's library here at hf, and discussed at length many Moons ago.

 

[Ugmo]

I don't like your question/conclusion.

We don't have to have yet other options. QC, to me, doesn't make sense due to the realignment (and I disagree with those who have disagreed with me about that point). I honestly thought QC was it until I saw the realignment plan-- as far as anything happening within the next 2 years.

That would almost require the "back-up plan" being Kansas City though. Because Seattle could still conceivably fall through, and the league will lose its shirt if it stays in Glendale for another year without any subsidies.

 

[Acesolid]

I don't like your question/conclusion.

We don't have to have yet other options. QC, to me, doesn't make sense due to the realignment (and I disagree with those who have disagreed with me about that point). I honestly thought QC was it until I saw the realignment plan-- as far as anything happening within the next 2 years.

Come on Fugu. You really think a decision worth many HUNDREDS of millions of dollars over dozens of years like the relocation of the Coyotes will be decided by an arbitrary convention on realignment?

Seriously? I get that they are good reasons for having a team in Seattle, but the realignment isn't one. Québec can play in the West for a few years like Winnipeg until a new decision on realigment is made in two years.

 

[Nordskull]

The realignment that came out in the press this winter is plan B.

 

[JMT21]

They can stay in Glendale for another season until Key Arena is ready, either this fall or next.

Unless the deal for Seattle to get an NBA team is set in stone there is zero chance the NHL will relocate to Seattle. IIRC the plan in Seattle was to secure an NBA franchise and THEN move towards getting an NHL team.

Just can't see the NHL arriving in Seattle before the NBA.

But..... with the NHL you just never know.

 

[GKJ]

Not being argumentitive here Ps, but the NHL's been loathe to make announcements of that sort (with exception of Atlanta-Winnipeg of course) actually during their showcase Playoffs. You could be quite correct though, given the magnitude of this mess of a situation. Timings irrelevant. But I suspect not. Id guess they wait until the Stanley Cup's been awarded in June, then let it be known whats what. Perhaps during the lull between end of regular season and commencement of the cup run should the Coyotes fail to qualify (and if they do make it in, absolutely no announcements until the SC's been won), but during it? Not so sure about that.... this of course now leads into logistics if indeed the teams on the move. I cant see how on Earth Seattle could possibly be ready & accommodate a team, its a gamble, could backfire & blow up in their faces. Theres just so many details involved. The only logical relo option is Quebec or, they stay put. NHL collects $6M in Mgmnt Fee's, perhaps then announces they'll give it to December 31st to get a deal done or 110% for sure, teams gone.

Depending on where the team is moved to, announcing it during the playoffs would potentially get lost among the playoffs themselves.

It sounds like the owners aren't willing to go through this again and have more lost revenues though. They're better off suspending operations, even though they won't do that.

 

[metalfoot]

Having read, but not remembering a lot, of the ongoing saga of the Coyotes, the attempt by the CoG, the NHL and numerous tire kickers to keep the team in Glendale, it seems to me that you would be the ideal person to ask the following (due to, in my mind, you having the 'collective history / memory' of most things relating to the Phoenix Coyotes).....

So, that being .....do you remember if the following report (and the source document(s) from which CBTE's understanding was based on) were discussed and what was determined regarding Non-Relocation and the penalty mentioned in article 1. on page 9 of the report but more importantly is that penalty for real or was / has it been extinguished by some slight of hand by the NHL / CoG ???? ...

I had thought the bankruptcy proceedings had nullified pretty much all such agreements, if I mentally go back 40 or so threads. IANAL, so best someone else checks on it, but it seems to me that Glendale actually waived their rights to that one at the NHL's urging as part of the BK proceedings?