Phoenix CXXXIV: 3 Sheets To The Wind

[TheLegend]

Developer reveals details on hockey, volleyball facilities planned for north Phoenix

To quote:

"The arena will have two National Hockey League-sized rinks, five regulation-sized convertible basketball and volleyball courts, plus upstairs restaurants with seating that will provide views of games.

“I learned that you don’t just build one ice rink, you build two because of the equipment needed,” he said. “I also learned there is a large demand for indoor girls’ volleyball, there’s a lack of adequate facilities.”

The amateur sports arena will focus on neighborhood and house league teams for children to adults, (Robert) Eaton (Jr.) said.

“There is a huge demand, pent-up demand on the hockey side,” Eaton said. “A lot of Canadians live in Phoenix who love the sport and want to introduce their kids to the sport.”"

Source (paywall): www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2018/07/19/developer-phoenix-hockey-volleyball-facilities.html

Recycled news again..... there was an AZCentral article posted about this a few weeks ago. Need to find a faster source than the BizJournal there, Llama.

Word is there's also land being acquired in Tempe for another public ice facility. But that's only rumor at this point.

 

[Llama19]

^^^
I did not see that AZCentral posted an article...do you have a link?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Unless I am mistaken the BOG has to approve all transactions that apply to the ownership of one of the member clubs, so any part of any club that is bought or sold has be approved as does the person or entity buying in. Bettman has already said that Glendale is untenable, so something has to be done. Why would the BOG approve a new owner if there is no plan to fix the problem? How would a new owner/investor make Glendale anymore viable than it currently is?

why is that narrative still being perpetuated, jhaf.... Bettman isn't the one who approves those transactions, that's Jeremy Jacobs....

 

[Detelethisaccount]

why is that narrative still being perpetuated, jhaf.... Bettman isn't the one who approves those transactions, that's Jeremy Jacobs....

Probably because the commissioner who directly or indirectly works for the BOG publicly stated the following less than 18 months ago:

"For the past 15 years, a succession of ownership groups and the League have tried everything imaginable to make the Glendale location financially sustainable. Our combined efforts all have yielded the same result -- a consistent economic loss,"

"The Arizona Coyotes must have a new arena location to succeed."

"The Coyotes cannot and will not remain in Glendale."

"Glendale is not economically capable of supporting a successful NHL franchise."

In the meantime, I have not heard Bettman, Jacobs or even Barroway refute any of that. I don't think it would be "reading between the lines", "pushing a narrative" or even require use of a tin-foil hat to say that Bettman and in-turn the BOG don't believe Glendale can support an NHL team. That means whoever comes in will have to do so with a plan to fix that, whether by building a new arena in the Phoenix area or relocating the franchise. I just cannot see a reason for the BOG to approve someone without a plan in place to get out of Glendale, what would be the point for either side to that? The new owner/investor would be stuck in an untenable situation and the BOG would still have a franchise bleeding money just with a new set of veins to drain.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Probably because the commissioner who directly or indirectly works for the BOG publicly stated the following less than 18 months ago:





In the meantime, I have not heard Bettman, Jacobs or even Barroway refute any of that. I don't think it would be "reading between the lines", "pushing a narrative" or even require use of a tin-foil hat to say that Bettman and in-turn the BOG don't believe Glendale can support an NHL team. That means whoever comes in will have to do so with a plan to fix that, whether by building a new arena in the Phoenix area or relocating the franchise. I just cannot see a reason for the BOG to approve someone without a plan in place to get out of Glendale, what would be the point for either side to that? The new owner/investor would be stuck in an untenable situation and the BOG would still have a franchise bleeding money just with a new set of veins to drain.

so, are u buying this franchise, then, jhaf, see the point that everyone else is making it has ZERO to do with GRA, SINCE 2003, SHOW the board what statements have been made since Bankruptcy that lead you to believe Arizona is being relocated without a new arena for them, specifically.... all this is is a minority share of the franchise, Where was it ever stated that Barroway is ceding majority ownership after acquiring the minority stake from Ice Arizona also, where has it been stated publically that Arizona is up for sale, I don't see any of that which means any investor also buys a share of the Tucson franchise since the Coyotes own that outright, just as they have since making that transaction in 2015....

Phoenix is not an option as long as TSRA and the Suns aka Sarver are part of this and that has nothing to do with the Coyotes because it is highly doubtful the two will ever co-exist after that 7 year stretch up to 2003.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Sarver has been the only one who comes across as business savvy to me.

If you're rooting for the 'yotes to stay, that's not a good thing. He seems on another level compared to everyone else even remotely related to this saga.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Sarver has been the only one who comes across as business savvy to me.

If you're rooting for the 'yotes to stay, that's not a good thing. He seems on another level compared to everyone else even remotely related to this saga.

Sarver needs to be the one to leave Arizona, tom..... what exactly makes him indebted to Arizona, much less the Suns.....

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Sarver needs to be the one to leave Arizona, tom..... what exactly makes him indebted to Arizona, much less the Suns.....

Oh, in terms of civic pride and duty, I'm not going to defend him or his actions.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Oh, in terms of civic pride and duty, I'm not going to defend him or his actions.

SOMEONE HAD TO ASK IT, in lieu of any news, welcome back, btw

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

SOMEONE HAD TO ASK IT, in lieu of any news, welcome back, btw

Honestly - it's great to be back

 

[Detelethisaccount]

so, are u buying this franchise, then, jhaf, see the point that everyone else is making it has ZERO to do with GRA, SINCE 2003, SHOW the board what statements have been made since Bankruptcy that lead you to believe Arizona is being relocated without a new arena for them, specifically.... all this is is a minority share of the franchise, Where was it ever stated that Barroway is ceding majority ownership after acquiring the minority stake from Ice Arizona also, where has it been stated publically that Arizona is up for sale, I don't see any of that which means any investor also buys a share of the Tucson franchise since the Coyotes own that outright, just as they have since making that transaction in 2015....

Phoenix is not an option as long as TSRA and the Suns aka Sarver are part of this and that has nothing to do with the Coyotes because it is highly doubtful the two will ever co-exist after that 7 year stretch up to 2003.

I am not real sure what position you are taking here Hutch, if the issue isn't GRA/location than what is it?

 

[XX]

Sarver has been the only one who comes across as business savvy to me.

Just the opposite. The Suns were one of the best franchises in the league and were universally loved for the style of game they played, predating the Warriors. By being a miser, Sarver managed to run the franchise into the proverbial ground. He's fortunate that the NBA is financially lucrative no matter how dumb you are, similar to the inept NFL franchises out there.

The Suns still hold all the cards and can just wait the Coyotes out.

 

[Bookie21]

Sarver has been the only one who comes across as business savvy to me.

Sarver...business savvy lol. This has to be a misprint. The people of Phoenix hate him and want him to go away, far away. He has screwed up the suns so bad, the fans are turning on him.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Sarver...business savvy lol. This has to be a misprint. The people of Phoenix hate him and want him to go away, far away. He has screwed up the suns so bad, the fans are turning on him.

In the Coyotes case, in terms of self-interested actions, Sarver has been the best one.

I'm not going to claim he's been a solid suns owner, but in terms of securing his franchise's future in Phoenix, he's been playing this better than anyone who has touched the Coyotes.

I mean, it's a bar low enough to jump over without knees, but at least he's over it.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Maybe Manchester United's owners want to get into the hockey business?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I don't think it would be "reading between the lines", "pushing a narrative" or even require use of a tin-foil hat to say that Bettman and in-turn the BOG don't believe Glendale can support an NHL team.

I'll tell you exactly why the NHL et al. came out so publicly and so forcefully against Glendale in the press - because they were subsidy-hunting. That's it. Their patsy clowns were planning to build a new arena, and the puppet masters wanted to pull strings to maximize their chances. They are not above such things - witness their public warnings of a relocation when Glendale was deciding whether or not to drop 25 large/year in ransom to keep the team while Bettman went looking in his Rolodex.

But I'll guarantee you one thing - if Glendale somehow came up with $25M/year in new subsidies and offered it to Barroway, suddenly the rhetoric around Glendale would become so lovey-dovey and peachy keen that you'd wonder if the NHL believed Glendale to be hockey's Shangri-La.

Sarver has been the only one who comes across as business savvy to me.

In the Coyotes case, in terms of self-interested actions, Sarver has been the best one.

I'm not going to claim he's been a solid suns owner, but in terms of securing his franchise's future in Phoenix, he's been playing this better than anyone who has touched the Coyotes.

I mean, it's a bar low enough to jump over without knees, but at least he's over it.

I'd say Sarver has been the most blatantly self-interested in public, but it's not like his actions have required any sort of sense, savvy, or intelligence. Like you said, the bar is so damn low thanks to the Ice Clowns that my cat could probably make better decisions. Basically, Sarver is like a horse with blinkers. The direction he's going generally may not be the smartest one in the world (and given what he's done to the Suns of late, there's plenty of evidence that his direction, in fact, sucks rocks) but at least he's not deviating from his course.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I'll tell you exactly why the NHL et al. came out so publicly and so forcefully against Glendale in the press - because they were subsidy-hunting. That's it. Their patsy clowns were planning to build a new arena, and the puppet masters wanted to pull strings to maximize their chances. They are not above such things - witness their public warnings of a relocation when Glendale was deciding whether or not to drop 25 large/year in ransom to keep the team while Bettman went looking in his Rolodex.

But I'll guarantee you one thing - if Glendale somehow came up with $25M/year in new subsidies and offered it to Barroway, suddenly the rhetoric around Glendale would become so lovey-dovey and peachy keen that you'd wonder if the NHL believed Glendale to be hockey's Shangri-La.





I'd say Sarver has been the most blatantly self-interested in public, but it's not like his actions have required any sort of sense, savvy, or intelligence. Like you said, the bar is so damn low thanks to the Ice Clowns that my cat could probably make better decisions. Basically, Sarver is like a horse with blinkers. The direction he's going generally may not be the smartest one in the world (and given what he's done to the Suns of late, there's plenty of evidence that his direction, in fact, sucks rocks) but at least he's not deviating from his course.

Yeah, maybe Savvy is too strong a word.

What he is doing is playing the hand he has been dealt with a clear direction. It's refreshing to see.

 

[StreetHawk]

Sarver is doing what’s in the best business interests of the suns from a business POV.

Aiming for a rockets type deal where the nba teams controls the revenues of the arena.

Now, if you are not in on an arena before shovels hit the ground then the only possible owner of the team will be the one who controls the arena.

I don’t see the coyotes, flames etc ever just being a tenant in Houston. Doubt it makes financial sense for them.

Sarver can just wait out the coyotes.

 

[Detelethisaccount]

I'll tell you exactly why the NHL et al. came out so publicly and so forcefully against Glendale in the press - because they were subsidy-hunting. That's it. Their patsy clowns were planning to build a new arena, and the puppet masters wanted to pull strings to maximize their chances. They are not above such things - witness their public warnings of a relocation when Glendale was deciding whether or not to drop 25 large/year in ransom to keep the team while Bettman went looking in his Rolodex.

But I'll guarantee you one thing - if Glendale somehow came up with $25M/year in new subsidies and offered it to Barroway, suddenly the rhetoric around Glendale would become so lovey-dovey and peachy keen that you'd wonder if the NHL believed Glendale to be hockey's Shangri-La.

I am not so sure about that Feck, those statements from Bettman were pretty much scorched earth. Remember he is a lawyer, if he had any thought of Glendale being viable in the future he would have left himself an out, some wiggle room if you will. He did not, and was about as matter of fact and blunt about it as he could have been. I understand that arena/lease negotiations can be nasty business, but you don't say that the city you are currently doing business is "not economically capable of supporting a successful NHL franchise" in hopes of getting a better deal with them down the road. Also what message would that send to the taxpayers in Glendale if there was a new subsidy? The NHL commissioner doesn't think we can support a team, but we are going to use taxpayer money to try and prove him wrong? We made a bad decision 15 years ago, so now we are going to make more bad decisions to try and fix it? Would be tough for any politician to answer those questions. Bettman knows that the NHL and city/county have to be partners on any arena deal, so you want to get the best deal for yourself but also not leave the other side so beaten and or angry that it weakens the overall partnership.

I look at this as a marriage between Glendale and the NHL, the honeymoon was great but then you started living together and things took a turn for the worse. You tried different counselors (owners), but none could seem to fix the problems. So finally the NHL asked for a divorce (Bettman's referenced comments). Now we are in the stage of the divorce where the lawyers are working behind the scenes and everyone is still living under the same roof, but just until the NHL can find a new place. The NHL is trying to find the best place to start "a new life". Maybe it is in the same area but it could be in a different state. Glendale is trying to figure what it is going to do with this big, empty house when this is all over.

 

[StreetHawk]

I am not so sure about that Feck, those statements from Bettman were pretty much scorched earth. Remember he is a lawyer, if he had any thought of Glendale being viable in the future he would have left him self an out, some wiggle room if you will. He did not, was about as matter of fact and blunt about it as he could have been. I understand that arena/lease negotiations can be nasty business, but you don't say that the city you are currently doing business is "not economically capable of supporting a successful NHL franchise" in hopes of getting a better deal with them down the road. Also what message would that send to the taxpayers in Glendale if there was a new subsidy? The NHL commissioner doesn't think we can support a team, but we are going to use taxpayer money to try and prove him wrong? We made a bad decision 15 years ago, so now we are going to make more bad decisions to try and fix it? Would be tough for any politician to answer those questions. Bettman knows that the NHL and city/county have to be partners on any arena deal, so you want to get the best deal for yourself but also not leave the other side so beaten and or angry that it weakens the overall partnership.

I look at this as a marriage between Glendale and the NHL, they honeymoon was great but then you started living together and things took a turn for the worse. You tried different counselors (owners), but none could seem to fix the problems. So finally the NHL asked for a divorce (Bettman's referenced comments). Now we are in the stage of the divorce where the lawyers are working behind the scenes and everyone is still living under the same roof, but just until the NHL can find a new place. The NHL is trying to find the best place to start "a new life". Maybe it is in the same area but it could be in a different state. Glendale is trying to figure what it is going to do with this big, empty house when this is all over.

Hard to fathom that the glendale arena is coming upon 15 years old before the end of the year. Same age as the Toyota Center in Houston.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I look at this as a marriage between Glendale and the NHL, the honeymoon was great but then you started living together and things took a turn for the worse.

I'll be frank - I don't look at this as a marriage metaphor. The NHL and Arizona are more like a ne'er-do-well drunk uncle and his long-suffering family. One day he just showed up on his brother's doorstep looking for a place to crash. His brother's family made him as comfortable as they could, but after a while a "kissing cousin" offered up her couch in her flat downtown and he couldn't resist. Once moving in there, he ran up the phone bills, cleaned out the refrigerator, and stole from her wallet for his benders... all the while complaining to his brother that she was treating him badly and that he was going to have to leave before long if things didn't get better. Now he's milking the last drop out of his current digs before casting about to find another family member to mooch off of. Is it any wonder that the cousins and brothers and sisters are thinking twice about letting him become a houseguest?

Maybe if he cleaned up his act and committed to living a better life, the arms would be wide open... but until he proves it, nobody's giving him a key.

 

[Detelethisaccount]

I'll be frank - I don't look at this as a marriage metaphor. The NHL and Arizona are more like a ne'er-do-well drunk uncle and his long-suffering family. One day he just showed up on his brother's doorstep looking for a place to crash. His brother's family made him as comfortable as they could, but after a while a "kissing cousin" offered up her couch in her flat downtown and he couldn't resist. Once moving in there, he ran up the phone bills, cleaned out the refrigerator, and stole from her wallet for his benders... all the while complaining to his brother that she was treating him badly and that he was going to have to leave before long if things didn't get better. Now he's milking the last drop out of his current digs before casting about to find another family member to mooch off of. Is it any wonder that the cousins and brothers and sisters are thinking twice about letting him become a houseguest?

Maybe if he cleaned up his act and committed to living a better life, the arms would be wide open... but until he proves it, nobody's giving him a key.

I was speaking of Glendale specifically with the marriage metaphor. As to the drunk uncle that seems to fit when talking about the whole Arizona saga, but I would take issue with the idea of Glendale as a "kissing cousin" offering up her couch. Was GRA not built specifically for the Coyotes? That would be like a cousin offering to buy you a new double-wide and a place to keep it. I just don't see the COG or Phoenix for that matter as some innocent victims in this that have been kicked around by the big bad NHL, I see them as more than willing participants. I certainly cannot defend the NHL's actions in the Arizona market, but I cannot completely absolve the local governments either. They knew exactly what they were getting into, perhaps they didn't foresee this exact scenario, but for them to be shocked that an NHL franchise with financial issues might try to threaten to leave to get a better deal would be naive beyond belief. Isn't what happened in Winnipeg to get this whole mess started in the first place?

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I was speaking of Glendale specifically with the marriage metaphor. As to the drunk uncle that seems to fit when talking about the whole Arizona saga, but I would take issue with the idea of Glendale as a "kissing cousin" offering up her couch. Was GRA not built specifically for the Coyotes? That would be like a cousin offering to buy you a new double-wide and a place to keep it. I just don't see the COG or Phoenix for that matter as some innocent victims in this that have been kicked around by the big bad NHL, I see them as more than willing participants. I certainly cannot defend the NHL's actions in the Arizona market, but I cannot completely absolve the local governments either. They knew exactly what they were getting into, perhaps they didn't foresee this exact scenario, but for them to be shocked that an NHL franchise with financial issues might try to threaten to leave to get a better deal would be naive beyond belief. Isn't what happened in Winnipeg to get this whole mess started in the first place?

The similarities to Winnipeg in the early 90's and Arizona right now are kinda scary.

A big reason the Jets left (Besides the CAD dollar's weakness/No salary cap to provide expence certainty) was an ownership group that did not own their own arena. There's a documentary about the Jets moving called "Death by Popcorn," and that tells you a lot about what was a big factor in the Jets leaving.

The Jets didn't get concessions revenue during games, so had no benefit to actually running an entertainment centre, and no one owner wanted to pony up enough cash to build a new arena at the time.

There was no good landing spot for the time, and a move to Minnesota was ruled out before they were stuffed into Phoenix.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The similarities to Winnipeg in the early 90's and Arizona right now are kinda scary.

Except if the Coyotes leave, there will never be another NHL team in Arizona.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

Except if the Coyotes leave, there will never be another NHL team in Arizona.

I know for a fact that was the line in WPG when the Jets left. Even after when people were lobbying for a return of the NHL in the early 2000's they were made fun of.

Circumstances change. This all goes away once you find a committed owner who has a building.