Phoenix CXXXIV: 3 Sheets To The Wind

[Llama19]

To quote:

""They're working on it," said [Deputy NHL Commissioner Bill] Daly, who indicated the NHL was recently briefed on a conference call about the Coyotes' status. "There continues to be a high level of confidence that they can get something done." Daly said the Coyotes had "at least three" arena options in the planning stages."

Source: www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/23640899/nhl-slava-voynov-potential-reinstatement-update-new-york-islanders-arena-playoff-format-changes

Click to read more...

 

[Killion]

.... right. I think the important thing to do here is to pay very close attention to exactly what he says, word x word.... so "confidence that they can get something done" is just fine n' dandy..... its the latter part there where he then goes on to say "the Coyotes had at least three arena options in the planning stages"..... So he's not lying; past tense. Full stop. Are one or maybe two possibly still active, maybe new ones, being discussed with outside individuals, property holders, developers & investors? Entirely possible.

We already know theyve "had at least three arena options in the planning stages" over the past couple of years following the blowout with the COG. That is how I'm reading this, that is what he's referencing..... and in doing so doesnt address the situation in the here & now, near term future. He's avoided answering that question & without followup by the reporter, pressing him for an answer on that matter, avoiding any transparency skates away Scott free. Of course he, the NHL, Barroway, not obligated to be transparent, open & forthright. Their not obligated to say anything more than "confidence remains we can get something done" but lets just back the train up here a minute otherwise it'll go right off the tracks in applying his little tango there in referencing past tense activities with current.

Of course that we or fans, interested parties are forced to parse, really really read every single word & statement, well.... so bottom line. There were 3, and ya, already know that... actually more than that, some "super advanced" apparently according to Tony the Tiger.... others not tenable or practicable, didnt go anywhere at all & so on.

 

[Llama19]

A little timeline reference of events...

June 23, 2016
Coyotes have chosen site for new arena

Source: arizonasports.com/story/709720/leblanc-coyotes-have-chosen-site-for-new-arena/

November 14, 2016
Arizona Coyotes’ plan to build arena at Arizona State would need support of taxpayers, legislators

Source: www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nhl/coyotes/2016/11/14/arizona-coyotes-asu-agree-2-facility-deal-tempe/93784410/

March 7, 2017
NHL commissioner: Coyotes 'can't and won't' play in Glendale

To quote:

“While we cannot and will not stay in Glendale, we will continue to push our proposed public-private partnership until we either achieve a long-term arena solution in a more economically viable location in the Valley, or we reach the point where there is simply no longer a path forward in Arizona. At that point, as the Commissioner indicated, we will work with our partners in the League office and across the NHL to determine our next steps.” -- Andrew Barroway

Source: www.12news.com/article/sports/nhl/coyotes/nhl-commissioner-coyotes-cant-and-wont-play-in-glendale/420599553

June 12, 2017
Coyotes' ownership change could clear way to Phoenix arena

Source: www.12news.com/article/sports/coyotes-ownership-change-could-clear-way-to-phoenix-arena/75-448061143

March 10, 2018
Coyotes owner Andrew Barroway in discussions with potential investors

Source: arizonasports.com/story/1457604/coyotes-owner-andrew-barroway-discussions-potential-investors/

 

[Killion]

Thanks @Llama19 .... and so here we are, June 4, 2018 & basically "confident they can get something done" on the arena front locally however nothing whatsoever to suggest that talks are taking place with outside sources or that sites are even being looked at.... no nothing as to where the money might come from for all of this nor does the reporter now, as in none never ever deigning, having the temerity I suppose to ask Daly, Bettman, Barroway, Patterson or whomever if they seriously believe the market can support another 17,000+ seat arena, are they looking for public support, is any lobbying going on, where & with whom (?), any interest coming in pursuant to investment in the club, whats your timeline, schedule here & so on & so forth..... meanwhile the twitterverse tweeting away with "rumor has it the Coyotes unable to pay their bills, NHL covering since" and so on & so forth.... Bill Daly playing games, semantics, having fun with reporters questions, offering up gobbledeegook lawyerly like answer... "yeah.... recent conference call..... had 3 arena options"... seriously, are you High Cueball?..... so, the usual.................. Billy? Ya done good. Sewing yet more frustration & confusion... kickin' it down the road.

 

[Llama19]

Thanks @Llama19 .... and so here we are, June 4, 2018 & basically "confident they can get something done" on the arena front locally however nothing whatsoever to suggest that talks are taking place with outside sources or that sites are even being looked at.... no nothing as to where the money might come from for all of this nor does the reporter now, as in none never ever deigning, having the temerity I suppose to ask Daly, Bettman, Barroway, Patterson or whomever if they seriously believe the market can support another 17,000+ seat arena, are they looking for public support, is any lobbying going on, where & with whom (?), any interest coming in pursuant to investment in the club, whats your timeline, schedule here & so on & so forth..... meanwhile the twitterverse tweeting away with "rumor has it the Coyotes unable to pay their bills, NHL covering since" and so on & so forth.... Bill Daly playing games, semantics, having fun with reporters questions, offering up gobbledeegook lawyerly like answer... "yeah.... recent conference call..... had 3 arena options"... seriously, are you High Cueball?..... so, the usual.................. Billy? Ya done good. Sewing yet more frustration & confusion... kickin' it down the road.

Well...this cueball does have three spots...

FWIW...forgot about this location...as it might be one of the three options...

June 22, 2016

To quote:

"The Arizona Coyotes' search for a new hockey home is focusing on an East Valley site that was once a popular drive-in movie theater, 12 News has learned.

The site is on privately-held tribal land northwest of the Loop 101 and 202 interchange, at McKellips and McClintock. It was home to the Scottsdale 6 Drive-In for more than 30 years."

Source: www.12news.com/article/news/local/valley/coyotes-might-announce-arena-site-this-week/251747479

 

[Killion]

Well...this cueball does have three spots...

FWIW...forgot about this location...as it might be one of the three options...

June 22, 2016

To quote:

"The Arizona Coyotes' search for a new hockey home is focusing on an East Valley site that was once a popular drive-in movie theater, 12 News has learned.

The site is on privately-held tribal land northwest of the Loop 101 and 202 interchange, at McKellips and McClintock. It was home to the Scottsdale 6 Drive-In for more than 30 years."

Source: www.12news.com/article/news/local/valley/coyotes-might-announce-arena-site-this-week/251747479

Right.... and that ones out as the ownership of the land is privately held by as I recall a member of the Tribe, free of course to lease it out to whomever however.... rather complex & potentially risky business to then be doing so, pouring hundreds of millions into an arena & so on & so forth... no solid opportunity there for a working agreement with the Band & thus no forms of subsidy direct or indirect.

Great location but frankly its my opinion that no matter how good the location its actually a "bad location" as its a bad idea & concept in the first place, to be building another arena in that market. Its unsustainable. Already have too much inventory. If this was to be realized, "Arena War's" will absolutely break out & do damage to not just Glendale but to the Coyotes & the Suns, to the clubs themselves and their businesses, arenas... & to a few other venues in the market as well.... And no I'm not being a Chicken Little with the sky will fall. Guaranteed.

Secondly & more importantly; there is no such thing as a "geographic cure" in such cases. Its not location. Its ownership & the NHL itself where the illness resides. They can move to Scottsdale. They can move downtown. But they cant run away from themselves. They have a better chance of attracting a new owner or investor in the club where is as is without asking for another $250M+++ from whomever on top of buying into the club for a new building. Seriously, you would have to be completely insane to be doing that.

Just some quick-quick numbers, lets say just for the sake of argument the NHL pins a $500M valuation on that club, youd need to come up with $250M or say $240M for 49% with BrokeBack Mountain Andrew Barroway as your senior Majority Partner?... Then fork over another $250M as your contribution towards a brand new $500M arena? Seriously? Never mind the ongoing losse youd also be expected to cover; amping up overhead, advertising & promotion, personnel, on & off-ice talent etc etc etc....

Does any of this seem even remotely plausible let alone possible? Real? Not to me it doesnt. Can you imagine the prospectus on such a buy-in? Pure fiction. Theres your Electric Kool Aide Acid Test right there. Psychotropics. Even at that this is beyond Leary, isolation tanks at Harvard.

 

[Llama19]

^^^
The ASU arena was to be about 16,000 seats and cost around $400 million...

To quote:

"The Coyotes announced a proposal Monday to build a 16,000-seat arena near Arizona State University's main campus by 2019, a deal that would put the team in the heart of the Phoenix area's population and financial center.

"Someone said at the time it would be a silver lining," Coyotes President and CEO Anthony LeBlanc said of the Glendale City Council's decision. "This is a gold lining.

Coyotes majority owner Andrew Barroway said the arena will cost around $400 million, with the team picking up about half the cost. The other half will be through public-private funding, according to LeBlanc.""

Source: www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/sharks/coyotes-announce-plans-build-new-arena-new-asu-campus

 

[mesamonster]

Thanks @Llama19 .... and so here we are, June 4, 2018 & basically "confident they can get something done" on the arena front locally however nothing whatsoever to suggest that talks are taking place with outside sources or that sites are even being looked at.... no nothing as to where the money might come from for all of this nor does the reporter now, as in none never ever deigning, having the temerity I suppose to ask Daly, Bettman, Barroway, Patterson or whomever if they seriously believe the market can support another 17,000+ seat arena, are they looking for public support, is any lobbying going on, where & with whom (?), any interest coming in pursuant to investment in the club, whats your timeline, schedule here & so on & so forth..... meanwhile the twitterverse tweeting away with "rumor has it the Coyotes unable to pay their bills, NHL covering since" and so on & so forth.... Bill Daly playing games, semantics, having fun with reporters questions, offering up gobbledeegook lawyerly like answer... "yeah.... recent conference call..... had 3 arena options"... seriously, are you High Cueball?..... so, the usual.................. Billy? Ya done good. Sewing yet more frustration & confusion... kickin' it down the road.

The fact that Daly was not asked any real questions and did not address the financial questions that overhang the franchise suggests you are on the right track K! Amazing the lack of clarity and direction, Steve Patterson was supposed to be the front man on the new arena, yet it is Daly who is the only one to really talk about their options. Patterson will speak when they have hardened and viable options, his silence speaks the truth of what is really happening.

Keep an eye on the team spending, more pernicious use of the bottom of the cap is a signal that funds are being closely marshalled by Daly in an effort to keep the team budget deficit within striking distance of a potential out of town suitor. I can`t see a local investor interested in picking up the pieces and attempting a comeback in the Valley. Simply too much bad PR for too long has ruined this market for anyone who may have had an idea that this would be worth considering.

 

[chizzler]

I wish I could’ve gotten public funds to buy my house.
How much money are the owners losing by supporting this team? Bettmans got these owners drinking the coolaide.

 

[Stumbledore]

I wish I could’ve gotten public funds to buy my house.
How much money are the owners losing by supporting this team? Bettmans got these owners drinking the coolaide.

I have read numerous sources without attribution (=guesses) who have estimated that the owners this year are losing between $36-42 million. Some of them show math and assumptions to back up their guesses, but it the end it still amounts to a guess.

So, take it with a good mouthful of roughage that Barroway and Co. are losing circa forty million this year.

 

[cbcwpg]

I have read numerous sources without attribution (=guesses) who have estimated that the owners this year are losing between $36-42 million. Some of them show math and assumptions to back up their guesses, but it the end it still amounts to a guess.

So, take it with a good mouthful of roughage that Barroway and Co. are losing circa forty million this year.

The numbers have always been all over the map as claimed throughout the years at various times... just a sample.

~ $60,000,000

Coyotes lost $60-million

~ $16,000,000

IceArizona reports $16M loss in Year One

~ $34,000,000

Arizona Coyotes report $34.831 million loss, see that as expected

The ONLY consistent thing that can be said about the Coyotes is they lose money, each and every year. Could be 5 million to 60 million per year... no one really knows except the NHL. The total losses that this team has put up since it arrived are just mind boggling.

 

[Bookie21]

Are those losses before revenue sharing?

 

[Llama19]

The numbers have always been all over the map as claimed throughout the years at various times... just a sample.

~ $60,000,000

Coyotes lost $60-million

~ $16,000,000

IceArizona reports $16M loss in Year One

~ $34,000,000

Arizona Coyotes report $34.831 million loss, see that as expected

The ONLY consistent thing that can be said about the Coyotes is they lose money, each and every year. Could be 5 million to 60 million per year... no one really knows except the NHL. The total losses that this team has put up since it arrived are just mind boggling.

Losses are losses...

As this article, H Is For Hockey Related Revenues, has a nice write-up on the state of the league and their math...as the Arizona Coyotes are shown, since 1999, having $217 million in losses...

To quote:

"Heck, the only thing increasing faster than NHL revenues is bitcoin. And just like bitcoin, not only are NHL revenues subject to manipulation by shady characters, only a few ever truly benefit from the increases."

Source: canucksarmy.com/2017/12/15/h-is-for-hockey-related-revenues/

 

[Dirty Old Man]

As this article, H Is For Hockey Related Revenues, has a nice write-up on the state of the league and their math...as the Arizona Coyotes are shown, since 1999, having $217 million in losses...

Source: canucksarmy.com/2017/12/15/h-is-for-hockey-related-revenues/

No surprise that you quote some blogger who believes as you do, as if it's some sort of infallible authority.

 

[Llama19]

^^^
Did you bother to read the article...as those figures were not the blogger's but from Forbes...

 

[TheLegend]

^^^^
Which means what????? Forbes guesses too. In fact nobody here has taken Forbes' figures seriously as being accurate....... well..... except those who want them to be when it fits an agenda.

But let's take that $217M figure which apparently represents (per your little quote) a cumulative figure over 18 years. (see.... I can highlight pertinent things too )

That comes to just over $12M per year.

That..... of course..... is an estimated figure based upon a guess..... but it's not the $30-60 million per year we've seen bandied about over the years here..... is it??

 

[Bookie21]

^^^^
Which means what????? Forbes guesses too. In fact nobody here has taken Forbes' figures seriously as being accurate....... well..... except those who want them to be when it fits an agenda.

But let's take that $217M figure which apparently represents (per your little quote) a cumulative figure over 18 years. (see.... I can highlight pertinent things too )

That comes to just over $12M per year.

That..... of course..... is an estimated figure based upon a guess..... but it's not the $30-60 million per year we've seen bandied about over the years here..... is it??

TL, you are spot on. 12M per year loss isn't even a loss.... as franchise values have been going up a lot more than 12M a year

 

[Llama19]

"Over the past 15 years, different ownership groups, including the National Hockey League itself, have worked arm in arm with the NHL office and officials to explore every possible option to make Glendale and its arena work as the Coyotes' home. The bottom line remains the same: the team's owners continue to lose tens of millions of dollars annually. Consistent losses of such magnitude are not sustainable -- not for an NHL franchise, or any other business. -- Gary Bettman

Source: www.nhl.com/news/commissioner-gary-bettman-wants-coyotes-in-arizona/c-287499950

See...you get different loss numbers...depending upon who is talking about them...but the bottom line seems to be the same...

 

[JeffreyLFC]

TL, you are spot on. 12M per year loss isn't even a loss.... as franchise values have been going up a lot more than 12M a year

at some point the cumulative loss will overtake the franchise value

Then what the owner should do?

sell at a loss or continue at a loss?

Because in the end, franchise value does not cover cash flow expenses. You need financing to pay up (which also mean extra interest cost)

 

[Mightygoose]

And considering since 1999 or more specifically 2010 Glendale comtibuted $80 million to make these collective losses 'only' 217 million over this time span.

Speaking of increasing franchsie values, that only kicks when when the team is sold or at least a significant stake in it.

Speaking of sale/investors, didn't someone say in the Coyotes forum a few months ago that a buyer was in the works? No details of whom, how much they'll own, an rough amount or anything like that, just it was.... definitely happening there will be some clarity on the ownership front around the time the season ends, which could be as early as this Thursday.

Otherwise, if this is true we should have some concrete details by the BOG meeting in.....two weeks.....from tomorrow.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Sigh.

I think I'll go see what CasualFan is up to.

 

[TheLegend]

"Over the past 15 years, different ownership groups, including the National Hockey League itself, have worked arm in arm with the NHL office and officials to explore every possible option to make Glendale and its arena work as the Coyotes' home. The bottom line remains the same: the team's owners continue to lose tens of millions of dollars annually. Consistent losses of such magnitude are not sustainable -- not for an NHL franchise, or any other business. -- Gary Bettman

Source: www.nhl.com/news/commissioner-gary-bettman-wants-coyotes-in-arizona/c-287499950

See...you get different loss numbers...depending upon who is talking about them...but the bottom line seems to be the same...

That's just it...... "seems to"..... except it isn't the same. Everyone knows there are losses. But nobody knows whether or not those "bottom line losses" are at a level that Barroway (or the league) can't tolerate.

Yet those different loss numbers "seem to" always be the thing being tossed around here like mud. So much so the walls have become ten feet thick with them.

Think I'll go find where Feckless went....

 

[Bookie21]

at some point the cumulative loss will overtake the franchise value

Then what the owner should do?

sell at a loss or continue at a loss?

Because in the end, franchise value does not cover cash flow expenses. You need financing to pay up (which also mean extra interest cost)

You have to also consider these losses each year will offset the owners other money making business interests. That's why a lot of owners (Sharks come to mind) will show a loss, using creative accounting

 

[Fairview]

You have to also consider these losses each year will offset the owners other money making business interests. That's why a lot of owners (Sharks come to mind) will show a loss, using creative accounting

If the losses were just nominal or accounting trickery then sure.I am sure someone with money and large business holdings would have stepped forward. But considering that it was a really difficult to find any owner with real money to purchase the team. First Ice Clowns then Borrowaway and neither group had the kind of cash required to effectively run an NHL team, then there has to be something to the rumours of large losses.Why do you suspect that it is so hard to find someone with cash if as you seem to suggest it is such a great deal? Borrowaway has openly stated that he is looking for investers/partners..yet crickets..

 

[powerstuck]

^^^^
Which means what????? Forbes guesses too. In fact nobody here has taken Forbes' figures seriously as being accurate....... well..... except those who want them to be when it fits an agenda.

But let's take that $217M figure which apparently represents (per your little quote) a cumulative figure over 18 years. (see.... I can highlight pertinent things too )

That comes to just over $12M per year.

That..... of course..... is an estimated figure based upon a guess..... but it's not the $30-60 million per year we've seen bandied about over the years here..... is it??

Realistically, the $12M figure isn't far fetched. I mean Coyotes were, at some point, getting $15M per year from Glendale to ''manage'' the arena. Seems like a good number to cover all loses and then some.