Phoenix CXXXIV: 3 Sheets To The Wind

[mouser]

Which they already do control. And, which was the problem in the beginning. And, for those who continue to wonder, the reason the Coyotes play in Glendale is that Glendale was the only place willing to build them one. They didn't choose Glendale, Glendale chose them. The team paid 0, yes ZERO, toward the arena. That's why they went there.

To Fairview, the odds of NHL returning to this market if they leave are small, imo, because no one there will build them an arena, and that is what it would take to get them there. Phoenix is having enough trouble finding cash to keep the D'Backs. Never mind hockey. This isn't Seattle.

The Yotes contributed $30-something million towards the arena if my recollection is correct.

 

[Llama19]

^^^
The city of Glendale funded $180 million for the construction of the multi-purpose arena which consisted of $30 million in general obligation bond funding, and $150 million in excise tax funding.

I do not recall, from any source, that stated the Coyotes contributed one dime to the construction of the arena...Glendale footed the entire construction cost...

 

[cbcwpg]

The Yotes contributed $30-something million towards the arena if my recollection is correct.

^^^
The city of Glendale funded $180 million for the construction of the multi-purpose arena which consisted of $30 million in general obligation bond funding, and $150 million in excise tax funding.

I do not recall, from any source, that stated the Coyotes contributed one dime to the construction of the arena...Glendale footed the entire construction cost...

https://www.glendaleaz.com/pressroom/documents/CityofGlendaleandCoyotesFactSheet.pdf

Doesn't go into details, but, yes ...

The Gila River Arena was built specifically for the Coyotes in 2003.

The city invested approximately $160 million to construct the arena plus an additional $26 million for surrounding infrastructure improvements

***

I would assume that if the hockey team paid anything towards the construction of the arena it would have been mentioned.

 

[Llama19]

^^^
They didn't pay anything which is why they weren't mentioned...

 

[Jets4Life]

IIRC, at the end, there was a group put together that raised enough cash to purchase the team and keep it in Winnipeg. The league,then, added a condition that there could not be a group ownership because there had to be an individual with enough cash to back the team. In Arizona, not only did they allow group ownership without a true major investor but the league set it up that the league itself would be the backer via their LOC. That says a lot about the league's desire to remain in Arizona and also their disinterest in Winnipeg at the time.

This is incorrect.

The group was called "Spirit of Manitoba" which was composed of investors in the community (including current owner Mark Chipman). Initially, it looked promising for the Winnipeg-based group, but problems raising enough money to construct a new downtown area, as well as some internal disputes (rumor has it previous owner Barry Shankerow, who would now be a minority owner, wanted to still call the shots), killed the grassroots effort to save the team.

The league would have never made a stipulation like the one you are suggesting, since the very next season a group of Investors from Edmonton saved the Oilers from moving to Houston at the very last minute, and the league had no problem with this.

 

[cbcwpg]

IIRC, at the end, there was a group put together that raised enough cash to purchase the team and keep it in Winnipeg. The league,then, added a condition that there could not be a group ownership because there had to be an individual with enough cash to back the team. In Arizona, not only did they allow group ownership without a true major investor but the league set it up that the league itself would be the backer via their LOC. That says a lot about the league's desire to remain in Arizona and also their disinterest in Winnipeg at the time.

This is incorrect.

The group was called "Spirit of Manitoba" which was composed of investors in the community (including current owner Mark Chipman). Initially, it looked promising for the Winnipeg-based group, but problems raising enough money to construct a new downtown area, as well as some internal disputes (rumor has it previous owner Barry Shankerow, who would now be a minority owner, wanted to still call the shots), killed the grassroots effort to save the team.

The league would have never made a stipulation like the one you are suggesting, since the very next season a group of Investors from Edmonton saved the Oilers from moving to Houston at the very last minute, and the league had no problem with this.

Not to get OT, but sorry to say Jets4Life, but the previous poster is correct, but the wrong group. The group called MEC at the time trying to save the Jets was the one ambushed by Bettman. The Spirit of Manitoba came after and had no chance.

According to the published book : The Instigator: How Gary Bettman Remade the NHL and Changed the Game Forever... page 112...

"Then Bettman set off a stink bomb. The deal could still go ahead, but only under certain conditions: There needed to be a primary owner, and the group couldn't sell until they had collectively lost at least $25 million. If they wanted to move the team before the end of the 1999-2000 season, they would have to pay the league a $50 million transfer fee. And they couldn't mortgage the Jets for more than $50 million to finance the new rink."

***

Hence the front page in the Winnipeg Free Press on April 28, 1995 saying: Shafted By The NHL

And to your comments about the Oilers and group ownership. This is what pisses people off the most. The NHL constitution actually forbids group ownership... unless Bettman feels it will help his agenda.

And the City of Glendale also knows what it like to deal with Bettman. It's actually the one thing both Glendale and Winnipeg can say they have in common... they both had the same franchise that was screwed over by Bettman.

 

[Llama19]

 

[Fairview]

Not to get OT, but sorry to say Jets4Life, but the previous poster is correct, but the wrong group. The group called MEC at the time trying to save the Jets was the one ambushed by Bettman. The Spirit of Manitoba came after and had no chance.

According to the published book : The Instigator: How Gary Bettman Remade the NHL and Changed the Game Forever... page 112...

"Then Bettman set off a stink bomb. The deal could still go ahead, but only under certain conditions: There needed to be a primary owner, and the group couldn't sell until they had collectively lost at least $25 million. If they wanted to move the team before the end of the 1999-2000 season, they would have to pay the league a $50 million transfer fee. And they couldn't mortgage the Jets for more than $50 million to finance the new rink."

***

Hence the front page in the Winnipeg Free Press on April 28, 1995 saying: Shafted By The NHL

And to your comments about the Oilers and group ownership. This is what pisses people off the most. The NHL constitution actually forbids group ownership... unless Bettman feels it will help his agenda.

And the City of Glendale also knows what it like to deal with Bettman. It's actually the one thing both Glendale and Winnipeg can say they have in common... they both had the same franchise that was screwed over by Bettman.

Thank you. That is what I was referring to. The group ownership being forbidden was what I remembered most, and then the league relaxing the rule, after Winnipeg was lost.

 

[TheLegend]

Which they already do control. And, which was the problem in the beginning. And, for those who continue to wonder, the reason the Coyotes play in Glendale is that Glendale was the only place willing to build them one. They didn't choose Glendale, Glendale chose them. The team paid 0, yes ZERO, toward the arena. That's why they went there.

To Fairview, the odds of NHL returning to this market if they leave are small, imo, because no one there will build them an arena, and that is what it would take to get them there. Phoenix is having enough trouble finding cash to keep the D'Backs. Never mind hockey. This isn't Seattle.

Point of clarification.... Maricopa County built Chase Field.... not Phoenix.

The MCBG recently turned control of Chase Field over to the DBacks (something the team asked for when this all started) so where it goes from there remains to be seen.

Also have to remind everyone that Glendale built GRA as a part of the Ellman Companies' original Westgate Center Center project. It was not (paraphrasing) "just the Coyotes"

 

[sawchuk1971]

A series of good points, although a few minor details to check-
"When" GRA opened in Glendale, the recession didn't hit. It was just under 5 years between GRA's opening and the economic crash. GRA's earliest years coincided with the strongest years economically of the 2000s. The "when" event was the lockout. Coyotes had only half a season in their new arena before the lockout consumed an entire year.

AFAIK, with natural snow & ice, don't Arizona's mountains get it in the wintertime? Likewise the Grand Canyon end up snow-covered sometimes? Flagstaff seems somewhat known for it. Otherwise, point understood (Phoenix metro doesn't see snow consistently).

Winnipeg is the smallest market and IIRC, if Quebec City gets a team, Winnipeg would still be the smallest metro.


I wouldn't consider it a 'wrong righted' (of course, I'm American). The storm of Canadian currency valuation and decrepit arenas meant teams like the Nordiques and Jets were going to go somewhere southward, Larger markets could hold out through the storm, but not without getting rocked. The Nordiques had a stable landing spot, the Jets needed someplace to touch down after they couldn't land in the Twin Cities. The only open spot available then was Phoenix. It's been a strange journey for the Coyotes since then, with the biggest problems from the people running the team, some from circumstance (issues with their Phoenix arena, GRA's geographic issues because no other better-positioned city would build it). It would be hard for any league not named the NFL to build a fanbase and maintain it in those conditions. Heck, we see what atrocious ownership does in other sports (such as the Marlins) especially when it seems like they have no serious intent to honestly build a team to at least try and contend. A wrong would be the team ripped away from Canada with the intent to put it in new American markets because of a rigid ideological stance. The Jets/Coyotes have just been a series of unfortunate events. Intent didn't seem to enter the equation until the bankruptcy and the Coyotes staying put while building a growing Mount Trashmore of debt.

fixed....

 

[Fairview]

Point of clarification.... Maricopa County built Chase Field.... not Phoenix.

The MCBG recently turned control of Chase Field over to the DBacks (something the team asked for when this all started) so where it goes from there remains to be seen.

Also have to remind everyone that Glendale built GRA as a part of the Ellman Companies' original Westgate Center Center project. It was not (paraphrasing) "just the Coyotes"

My understanding was that the arena was built to house the Coyotes. You seem to be suggesting that it would have been erected whether or not the Coyotes were coming to Glendale?I have never heard that suggestion before

 

[MNNumbers]

My understanding was that the arena was built to house the Coyotes. You seem to be suggesting that it would have been erected whether or not the Coyotes were coming to Glendale?I have never heard that suggestion before

Ellman owned the Coyotes, and negotiated the rights to Westgate development in joint connection with the arena. It was designed as one unit, with the Yotes there to drive traffic to the Westgate development.

Later, those who wished the Yotes to stay used Westgate as one reason to keep them...."Too many businesses will die without the team there." So it seems the whole thing was intended as one unit.

 

[Fairview]

Ellman owned the Coyotes, and negotiated the rights to Westgate development in joint connection with the arena. It was designed as one unit, with the Yotes there to drive traffic to the Westgate development.

Later, those who wished the Yotes to stay used Westgate as one reason to keep them...."Too many businesses will die without the team there." So it seems the whole thing was intended as one unit.

So Westgate and GRA are built completely with government funds to appease the owner of the Coyotes at the time? Then the league and new ownership group recently decide that without a huge subsidy, that , all of a sudden, the arena is located in an area that can NEVER work. And now they want someone to offer them the same deal in another location?No small wonder that no one would or should touch this team and league with a 10 foot pole. Despicable.

 

[MNNumbers]

So Westgate and GRA are built completely with government funds to appease the owner of the Coyotes at the time? Then the league and new ownership group recently decide that without a huge subsidy, that , all of a sudden, the arena is located in an area that can NEVER work. And now they want someone to offer them the same deal in another location?No small wonder that no one would or should touch this team and league with a 10 foot pole. Despicable.

Close. Westgate is private, but with the typical incentives. Everything else you have exactly right.

Including that it's despicable

 

[Fairview]

Close. Westgate is private, but with the typical incentives. Everything else you have exactly right.

Including that it's despicable

Does Westgate happen without Ellman's involvement?

 

[MNNumbers]

Does Westgate happen without Ellman's involvement?

No. He was a developing magnate. That kind of development was his thing.

 

[TheLegend]

My understanding was that the arena was built to house the Coyotes. You seem to be suggesting that it would have been erected whether or not the Coyotes were coming to Glendale?I have never heard that suggestion before

No.... I'm suggesting that Glendale bought into a project of which the Coyotes were only a part of.

That all changed after Ellman and Moyes separated, with Moyes taking the Coyotes.

 

[Fairview]

No.... I'm suggesting that Glendale bought into a project of which the Coyotes were only a part of.

What do you think would have been the result for the Coyotes if Glendale did not buy in?

 

[TheLegend]

What do you think would have been the result for the Coyotes if Glendale did not buy in?

Not sure what Ellman would have done at that point. Possibly kept trying to get Scottsdale to agree to some sort of deal. There were two public votes about the Los Arcos project and they were both passed by the voters. IIRC a third vote was even proposed when Glendale stepped in.

Glendale at that time had a mayor who wanted to turn the city into an economic focal point for the west valley. Ellman saw an easier way to get his dream project built and that's all he needed.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Does Westgate happen without Ellman's involvement?

No. In fact, the whole reason Ellman bought into the Coyotes in the first place was to get a big shopping complex built, and the Coyotes were simply his crowbar to woo whatever municipality bought his pitch. He brought Moyes in after Los Arcos/Scottsdale fell through because Jerry was a big Glendale booster, but Moyes had no interest in being a hockey team owner - and as soon as Ellman broke ground on Westgate, he divested himself of his Coyotes ownership and left Moyes holding the reins. It was a big bait-and-switch from start to finish.

What do you think would have been the result for the Coyotes if Glendale did not buy in?

Ellman would have built some shopping elsewhere and the Coyotes would most likely be somewhere else, like Portland.

 

[mouser]

https://www.glendaleaz.com/pressroom/documents/CityofGlendaleandCoyotesFactSheet.pdf

Doesn't go into details, but, yes ...

The Gila River Arena was built specifically for the Coyotes in 2003.

The city invested approximately $160 million to construct the arena plus an additional $26 million for surrounding infrastructure improvements

***

I would assume that if the hockey team paid anything towards the construction of the arena it would have been mentioned.

^^^
They didn't pay anything which is why they weren't mentioned...

The city committed $180m, but the final cost of the arena was $220m. Steve Ellman/Coyotes paid for the $40m overrun.

Coyotes hope new arena brings success they never enjoyed in Phoenix

But any revenue this season is offset by the $40 million the team has sunk into cost overruns of a new arena that was originally slated to cost $180 million.

“The city only gave us $180 million and we could have built it for $180 million, but it would have been a Plain Jane building,'' Ellman said. "We wanted to make it a showcase, so we chose to go over the top. We're out of pocket $40 million and that certainly has an impact moving forward. But in the long run, we'll be happy we did what we did.''

You can find articles all over the net citing the final arena construction cost as $220m.

 

[Llama19]

^^^
The original arena cost of $180 million was the original cost...as these were 'overruns/upgrades' paid (a 22% increase over the original)...it was a gamble taken by Ellman...which in the long run...did not pay off for him...

 

[TheLegend]

^^^ I think that's what the man above said only without the narrative.

 

[Bookie21]

^^^
They didn't pay anything which is why they weren't mentioned...

Wrong again I see....

 

[Llama19]

New Marketing campaign?