Phoenix CXXXII: The Upside Down Franchise

[mesamonster]

Easy. Megachurch...happens in 4M+ metro areas (cf. LA, Houston)...and don't think there aren't very large non-denominational churches round here that wouldn't love to get their hands on a building like that, only about 20 years old by the time it happens. The billboards are *everywhere* here. OR....how about....someone like...at the rate they're growing....GCU?

Well that comment tells me the desperation is real! You have now gone to the papal challenge to entice patrons to an arena in the middle of nowhere! I might also point out you still only cover 52 dates. The fans have spoken and until the NHL can find an owner worth his weight in pucks this market will struggle. If as you seem to believe that AB will somehow make this work, we are all waiting to hear your ideas on "HOW."

 

[BattleBorn]

You think that an increase of 4000 fans per game(if that even happens) is going to magically change losses of over 20 million a year into break even or profit?
Not to mention a market with over 20 years of never attaining anything near the numbers that you are suggesting.

Would change annual income by $7-$8MM if they charge their current low prices.

 

[TheLegend]

You think that an increase of 4000 fans per game(if that even happens) is going to magically change losses of over 20 million a year into break even or profit?
Not to mention a market with over 20 years of never attaining anything near the numbers that you are suggesting.

You that sure the losses are over 20 million?? Love to see how you calculated it.

According to hockeydb the Coyotes have twice downtown, and twice in Glendale averaged 2500 more than they have this year. A couple of those years they were ranked in the middle of the pack for all NHL teams. Downtown was literally maxed out due to it's restricted seating so there's no real way of knowing if they could have filled more seats there.

I'm also not just looking at attendance. There are teams that utilize a multitude of revenue streams in addition selling tickets. That was a component of the ASU/IA project that got very little attention.

 

[Fairview]

You that sure the losses are over 20 million?? Love to see how you calculated it.

According to hockeydb the Coyotes have twice downtown, and twice in Glendale averaged 2500 more than they have this year. A couple of those years they were ranked in the middle of the pack for all NHL teams. Downtown was literally maxed out due to it's restricted seating so there's no real way of knowing if they could have filled more seats there.

I'm also not just looking at attendance. There are teams that utilize a multitude of revenue streams in addition selling tickets. That was a component of the ASU/IA project that got very little attention.

You have to account for the city's contribution as well. You said it would have to be a split in the revenue generated. $20 million would be to cover off any city investment (unlikely) plus team operations. $20 million is on the low side. As for team average attendance, it was a new product 20 years ago, since then crickets. Plus where do you think they will build the arena DOWNTOWN? Right next to the Suns?
Who covers the arena operations? That slush fund that the team needs? If we use the 7-8 million ( max attendance etc)that Battleborn suggests , unlikely based on the 20 data base that we have, that is not enough. Expenses due to go up, with the cap plus you can't live on ELC s forever. You need to be competitive, then you have to pay.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

If they won't drive out for hockey...Nobody will drive w-a-y out to Glendale to go to church

Two completely different things. But even putting aside the difference between the habits and passions of people who actually attend these kinds of megachurches, traffic on Sunday mornings/afternoons is a lot lighter than any other day of the week.

 

[TheLegend]

You have to account for the city's contribution as well. You said it would have to be a split in the revenue generated. $20 million would be to cover off any city investment (unlikely) plus team operations. $20 million is on the low side. As for team average attendance, it was a new product 20 years ago, since then crickets. Plus where do you think they will build the arena DOWNTOWN? Right next to the Suns?
Who covers the arena operations? That slush fund that the team needs? If we use the 7-8 million ( max attendance etc)that Battleborn suggests , unlikely based on the 20 data base that we have, that is not enough. Expenses due to go up, with the cap plus you can't live on ELC s forever. You need to be competitive, then you have to pay.

Some counterpoints.....

—- When talking about losses I mean what are they actually losing? Posters in here make all sorts of claims about what the team has lost (one even claimed it was $50-60 million for one season once) but only a couple have ever bothered to show the details how they arrived at the figure.

——The team wasn’t “new” when they averaged 15.5k the first two seasons in Glendale. People made the drive out to an arena that was sitting in a field by itself with dirt lots all around for the first one. That was 2003-04 when they ranked 19th of 30 teams.

—-If as you imply they built an arena in or near Scottsdale and the Suns remained downtown it’s not going to change much from what they have now. Both teams have had sellouts or near sellouts on the same night. Just as they’ve had bad attendance at the same time on the same night.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

If as you seem to believe that AB will somehow make this work, we are all waiting to hear your ideas on "HOW."

No, it's pretty much just you.

 

[mesamonster]

No, it's pretty much just you.

No, I am pretty sure there are plenty of posters here that have heard both GB and AB say that the team is losing tens of millions of dollars per year and therefore they need to find another venue to turn around the progression of losses. I have said repeatedly that it appears that AB is doing nothing to progress the idea that they are actually pursuing a new arena, much less reverse their losing ways in Glendale. I don`t believe AB has the resources or commitment to change the direction of this franchise, therefore creating a scenario where I envision a relocation out of state. The team cannot continue to lose any money given what seems to be a well known fact that AB is nothing more than a placeholder awaiting Uncle gary`s signal that he has found a landing spot. On the other hand, based on your posts,I presume it is your belief that the present situation at GRA, with current ownership, is perfectly fine. You believe that AB is doing a masterful job of managing this franchise and doing so believe he will own and play at GRA in perpetuity. If you believe something other than that please feel free to share.

 

[TheLegend]

No, I am pretty sure there are plenty of posters here that have heard both GB and AB say that the team is losing tens of millions of dollars per year and therefore they need to find another venue to turn around the progression of losses. I have said repeatedly that it appears that AB is doing nothing to progress the idea that they are actually pursuing a new arena, much less reverse their losing ways in Glendale. I don`t believe AB has the resources or commitment to change the direction of this franchise, therefore creating a scenario where I envision a relocation out of state. The team cannot continue to lose any money given what seems to be a well known fact that AB is nothing more than a placeholder awaiting Uncle gary`s signal that he has found a landing spot. On the other hand, based on your posts,I presume it is your belief that the present situation at GRA, with current ownership, is perfectly fine. You believe that AB is doing a masterful job of managing this franchise and doing so believe he will own and play at GRA in perpetuity. If you believe something other than that please feel free to share.

Bettman has never stated any ballpark amount the franchise has lost. Not his style. Once again you stretch context to fit a narrative.

Nobody is claiming there aren't losses.... but at the same time nobody knows what to losses truly are. Thus.... there are plenty of posters who chuck out a big round number that sounds good.

 

[mesamonster]

Bettman has never stated any ballpark amount the franchise has lost. Not his style. Once again you stretch context to fit a narrative.

Nobody is claiming there aren't losses.... but at the same time nobody knows what to losses truly are. Thus.... there are plenty of posters who chuck out a big round number that sounds good.

GB stated that remaining at GRA was an unsustainable financial arrangement for the franchise in a letter last year to the legislature. His letter was penned in support of the Worsley bill. In conjunction with GB`s letter, AB wrote that the team was losing tens of millions per year and that they need a new venue to be able to remain in Arizona. These letters were written to the legislators in tandem, both stating that the team could not remain in Glendale. Say what you want, they both admitted that the team was in a situation that had to be changed due to large financial losses. If the losses were not that bad, then why move to the East Valley spending an additional $170MM for an uncertain outcome?

 

[Dirty Old Man]

On the other hand, based on your posts,I presume it is your belief that the present situation at GRA, with current ownership, is perfectly fine.

Well, for me, it actually is, although due to where I live and work I would rather they move *a little* and continue to improve on the ice (how about that 8-2-2 lately, huh? huh?).

You believe that AB is doing a masterful job of managing this franchise and doing so believe he will own and play at GRA in perpetuity. If you believe something other than that please feel free to share.

Can I say he's doing a so-so job and hope he doesn't play at GRA in perpetuity (see above)?

 

[cbcwpg]

Bettman has never stated any ballpark amount the franchise has lost. Not his style. Once again you stretch context to fit a narrative.

Nobody is claiming there aren't losses.... but at the same time nobody knows what to losses truly are. Thus.... there are plenty of posters who chuck out a big round number that sounds good.

http://archive.azcentral.com/persistent/icimages/politics/Arizona_Coyotes_Statement_03072017.pdf

"The bottom line remains the same: the team's owners continue to lose tens of millions of dollars annually."

***

Maybe not Bettman, but I have never seen Bettman disagree with Barroway's statement. And if it was just $10,000,000 in losses annually, that would have been stated, except this states "tens". Definitely more than 10 million per year, more likely 20 or 30.

All Bettman has said is the team has always had a consistent economic loss.

 

[Fairview]

Some counterpoints.....

—- When talking about losses I mean what are they actually losing? Posters in here make all sorts of claims about what the team has lost (one even claimed it was $50-60 million for one season once) but only a couple have ever bothered to show the details how they arrived at the figure.

——The team wasn’t “new” when they averaged 15.5k the first two seasons in Glendale. People made the drive out to an arena that was sitting in a field by itself with dirt lots all around for the first one. That was 2003-04 when they ranked 19th of 30 teams.

—-If as you imply they built an arena in or near Scottsdale and the Suns remained downtown it’s not going to change much from what they have now. Both teams have had sellouts or near sellouts on the same night. Just as they’ve had bad attendance at the same time on the same night.

I reviewed the attendance figures that you referenced above. 2 things come to mind. First, the downtown attendance was certainly affected in a positive manner because the team was new to the market. It would not be unusual to have a 2 year or slightly longer honeymoon with a new team in a new market. Afterwards there is a continual downward attendance slide. Then a brand new facility is built in Glendale and , guess what??, another temporary bump in attendance. Again with a new facility, my experience is that the building would be sold out for the first year or so. Exactly what we observe.
Now, the other thing that comes to mind re: Glendale, is if you want to give any other reason for the bump in attendance other than newness of the building , then you support my feeling that the arena location has nothing to do with attendance. There is no reason to believe east valley arena solves anything.

 

[wpgallday1960]

Slightly OT again, but I got another call from Eric at Coyotes hockey asking my interest I any Coyote games for the remainder of the year. He was unaware he was calling Winnipeg but I let him know I would call him when I visit Phoenix next. He let me know I could save $$$ from stub hub or ticketmaster by calling the Yotes directly. The Yotes at least have good sales staff.

 

[Fairview]

Bettman has never stated any ballpark amount the franchise has lost. Not his style. Once again you stretch context to fit a narrative.

Nobody is claiming there aren't losses.... but at the same time nobody knows what to losses truly are. Thus.... there are plenty of posters who chuck out a big round number that sounds good.

OK, but if you are implying that the losses are not as bad as we think, or have heard about, from the team's ownership, then you would have to change what we know or has been reported about other teams in the league. Expenses, revenues etc are easy to find or figure out, which would give a reasonable financial picture for any team in the league. What you seem to be saying is that the numbers or the playing field is different in Arizona. There would have to be an X factor for Arizona only. If , we are to believe reports that the Jets are borderline revenue sharing recipient, with all that they have going on, then there is no way that Arizona is not bleeding buckets of red ink.
This would also explain why it was near impossible for the NHL to sell the team and why they broke just about every ownership requirement when they finally sham sold the team to IA/Borrowaway

 

[Fairview]

Some counterpoints.....

—- When talking about losses I mean what are they actually losing? Posters in here make all sorts of claims about what the team has lost (one even claimed it was $50-60 million for one season once) but only a couple have ever bothered to show the details how they arrived at the figure.

——The team wasn’t “new” when they averaged 15.5k the first two seasons in Glendale. People made the drive out to an arena that was sitting in a field by itself with dirt lots all around for the first one. That was 2003-04 when they ranked 19th of 30 teams.

—-If as you imply they built an arena in or near Scottsdale and the Suns remained downtown it’s not going to change much from what they have now. Both teams have had sellouts or near sellouts on the same night. Just as they’ve had bad attendance at the same time on the same night.

As far as calculating losses, I am certain that our figures are closer to reality than anything Hocking ever put out and Hocking numbers were treated as gospel by some extremely gullible yet influential people

 

[mesamonster]

As far as calculating losses, I am certain that our figures are closer to reality than anything Hocking ever put out and Hocking numbers were treated as gospel by some extremely gullible yet influential people

No worries Fairview, the locals are drinking the off stale kool aid, on some of the NHL statistical sites where you will find the Coyotes at or near the bottom of every category. Average seat price, attendance, etc.etc. Those who want to believe that the losses are less than what is the publicly believed perception are attempting to spin story that in every way goes against what s common knowledge. The league and AB want everyone to believe they are financially capable of weathering the storm, don`t believe that for a minute, they are financially strapped and yet they seem to believe that mere denials will placate the patrons into believing all is well and good. Reality is that the situation is dire, and that is kind, we are witnessing a failed NHL propaganda campaign to prop up a creep owner who is nothing to the league and should be seen as nothing to the fans of the Coyotes. An utter and complete fraud, his partner in crime (GB) is just as bad and equally complicit.

 

[Bookie21]

No worries Fairview, the locals are drinking the off stale kool aid, on some of the NHL statistical sites where you will find the Coyotes at or near the bottom of every category. Average seat price, attendance, etc.etc. Those who want to believe that the losses are less than what is the publicly believed perception are attempting to spin story that in every way goes against what s common knowledge. The league and AB want everyone to believe they are financially capable of weathering the storm, don`t believe that for a minute, they are financially strapped and yet they seem to believe that mere denials will placate the patrons into believing all is well and good. Reality is that the situation is dire, and that is kind, we are witnessing a failed NHL propaganda campaign to prop up a creep owner who is nothing to the league and should be seen as nothing to the fans of the Coyotes. An utter and complete fraud, his partner in crime (GB) is just as bad and equally complicit.

The Coyotes sure do make you angry I've noticed, what's up with all the frustration.
"Creep owner" "Fraud partner"..... You are obviously rattled about something and becoming unhinged by the mere mention of Barroway or Bettman

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Fairview still believes the NHL OWNS THE FRANCHISE, dba as the Arizona Coyotes, sadly....

 

[TheLegend]

Fairview still believes the NHL OWNS THE FRANCHISE, dba as the Arizona Coyotes, sadly....

Hutch.... technically they don’t, but even I feel the league is backstopping the franchise in some ways.

 

[TheLegend]

The Coyotes sure do make you angry I've noticed, what's up with all the frustration.
"Creep owner" "Fraud partner"..... You are obviously rattled about something and becoming unhinged by the mere mention of Barroway or Bettman

Before that it was Gosbee and LeBlanc..... etc. It’s been going on for the last nine years... only the names to be slighted change.

 

[Bookie21]

You'd just think that after saying the same thing for 9 years, you'd give up

 

[mesamonster]

The Coyotes sure do make you angry I've noticed, what's up with all the frustration.
"Creep owner" "Fraud partner"..... You are obviously rattled about something and becoming unhinged by the mere mention of Barroway or Bettman

Do your homework on AB and then you might understand why i believe he is not fit for command. The entire organization has been negatively impacted by his ineptitude, I`m sure even his partner in crime GB has many negative thoughts about this sue happy fraud. Look into his handling of the most recognizable player in team history Shane Doan and how he was told to take a hike. Then ask, why was there never a retirement ceremony for Shane? No, this guy is nothing but a wanna be without a half of an idea as to how to make this team a success, merely a man standing in for GB while he attempts to figure out what to do with a team that has been an eyesore for the NHL.

 

[cheswick]

Do your homework on AB and then you might understand why i believe he is not fit for command. The entire organization has been negatively impacted by his ineptitude, I`m sure even his partner in crime GB has many negative thoughts about this sue happy fraud. Look into his handling of the most recognizable player in team history Shane Doan and how he was told to take a hike. Then ask, why was there never a retirement ceremony for Shane? No, this guy is nothing but a wanna be without a half of an idea as to how to make this team a success, merely a man standing in for GB while he attempts to figure out what to do with a team that has been an eyesore for the NHL.

According to Barroway Doan is the one who didn't want a retirement ceremony this season,

Barroway said Doan thinks it's too early to retire his number this season, but the two sides will discuss the topic at the end of next summer.

Arizona Coyotes want to retire Shane Doan's number

 

[Killion]

According to Barroway Doan is the one who didn't want a retirement ceremony this season,

Arizona Coyotes want to retire Shane Doan's number

Yeah, saw that article earlier & who knows whats goin on really.... Doan claiming "its too early to retire my number" when in fact it isnt... or is he thinking of a comeback.... pull a Gordie Howe.... even still.... the season following a popular players last season entirely appropriate. Seems the Coyotes willing, Doan not so much. Guess you could chalk it up to animus on his part towards Barroway, Chayka... or not. Could be something else entirely. There are obviously a lot of cases of players numbers being retired or "honored" as is the case with the Leafs many years after the players hung them up.... Whatever.... While there are clearly problems within the organization this situation not something worth getting hung up on, that its somehow demonstrative of just how deep these problems run, which to my way of thinking, its not.