Phoenix CXIII: Astrobucks, Omnishambles, and Other Catchy Words

[Llama19]

 

[Whileee]

Yah, I sort of think that LeBlank is going to come with something more than "non-committal" if he's going to get the NHL's backing for a temporary arrangement for a few years that racks up a huge amount of new debt. They would need a pretty sweet arena deal with the Suns if they are going to go limping in with around $150M in accumulated debt.

I wouldn't be surprised if the end game sounds something like this....

Bettman: "The NHL has done all it possibly can to keep an NHL franchise in Phoenix. Unfortunately, due to the hostile actions of the City of Glendale we simply don't have any viable options for playing there."

LeBlank: "We have done our best to find alternative solutions to the arena problem, but unfortunately there is no near-term viable solution. We are therefore reluctantly accepting the offer from Foley to sell the franchise. We are proud of the work we have done, and especially proud that we have been able to keep professional hockey in Arizona with the new AHL franchise in Tucson."

 

[Whileee]

More truthfully, "we continuously failed to comply with the terms of our agreement with the City of Glendale, and then refused to renegotiate a fair lease agreement that would have kept us in Glendale for the long term."

 

[BattleBorn]

...
We are proud of the work we have done, and especially proud that we have been able to keep professional hockey in Arizona with the new AHL franchise in Tucson."

Which they likely won't own. Why would Foley work with an independent team when he could pick up the team for $5MM and have control over his players in development? It's why I wonder why they're on the Tucson thing if that's the plan. Put the AHL team up with ASU once that happens or in some other arena in Phoenix.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Would it be better if that timeframe is too long for the Coyottes to take losses, to relocate to LV and grant a frest expansion franchise to Phx in 5 years?

If the Coyotes leave Arizona, that's it for the NHL in Arizona. Period. End of story. My grandkids will be having kids before they'd even think of coming back here.

I'm starting to think we may be the crazy ones because we're all so deep into the hole.

You think?

More truthfully, "we continuously failed to comply with the terms of our agreement with the City of Glendale, and then refused to renegotiate a fair lease agreement that would have kept us in Glendale for the long term."

Even more truthfully: "We had the gravy train and futzed it away by being borderline malfeasant and introducing a completely unnecessary conflict of interest that killed our sweetheart deal and, therefore, we're playing the victim card to deflect attention from our complete idiocy."

Which they likely won't own. Why would Foley work with an independent team when he could pick up the team for $5MM and have control over his players in development? It's why I wonder why they're on the Tucson thing if that's the plan. Put the AHL team up with ASU once that happens or in some other arena in Phoenix.

Agreed. Foley would sooner purchase his own AHL team than have to deal with the IceClowns separately. Wouldn't any of us do the same?

 

[Dirty Old Man]

I'm starting to think we may be the crazy ones because we're all so deep into the hole.

*cough* much wisdom in that statement, I feel

 

[BattleBorn]

If the Coyotes leave Arizona, that's it for the NHL in Arizona. Period. End of story. My grandkids will be having kids before they'd even think of coming back here.



You think?



Even more truthfully: "We had the gravy train and futzed it away by being borderline malfeasant and introducing a completely unnecessary conflict of interest that killed our sweetheart deal and, therefore, we're playing the victim card to deflect attention from our complete idiocy."



Agreed. Foley would sooner purchase his own AHL team than have to deal with the IceClowns separately. Wouldn't any of us do the same?

*cough* much wisdom in that statement, I feel

The weird thing is that there's a lot of wisdom going the other way and pointing to the sale/relocation.

What is the wisdom for the opposite view other than the fact that nothing has happened?

I'm seriously interested. Even though I make a few jokes about tin foil hats, I'm not usually tin foil hat guy and I've got to be missing something.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The weird thing is that there's a lot of wisdom going the other way and pointing to the sale/relocation.

There are a lot of assumptions going that way based on a healthy brew of data points mixed with preconceived notions.

I used to be religious but am not anymore. One of the reasons why is when I started questioning my church's validity, one of the leaders told me, "First thing you have to do is accept the unchangeable truth that this is God's church. That is irrefutable fact."

I get that feeling a lot around these megathreads, in that a lot of folks around here drive their stake into the ground by saying that it is an incontrovertible fact that the Coyotes cannot survive in Arizona. Then, like dogs on a chain, they dash out to make their opinions known, but always orbiting that anchor to which their chain is tied.

I much prefer the scientific method, in that you proceed with the intent of proving your thesis wrong rather than trying to find supporting evidence that it is right, and only by eliminating all other possibilities do you come to a final conclusion.

So you're right, there is a lot of data indicating that a relocation is possible; however, there is also some data indicating that the team is not going to move this season that hasn't been eliminated from consideration. So for me it's impossible to be satisfied with the iron-clad conclusions others have come to.

 

[Killion]

So for me it's impossible to be satisfied with the iron-clad conclusions others have come to.

Yes, all excellent points. When one ties oneself to a certain belief system, or even scientifically to a hypothesis, follows blindly the dogma prescribed which in & of itself is very likely founded on flawed logic, perhaps a lack of truly objective base-line data or whatever... then one is limited themselves in terms of perception... and like your analogy, tied to the stake of that claim & conviction by a chain, limited, unwilling, unable to consider alternative theories or belief systems... Often times those who are committed to whatever "belief" have absolutely zero tolerance for the introduction of new evidence, even to question the belief or hypothesis considered heresy... and... you must, nay, you will burn ... in Hell for Eternity... So yes, in this case really, everythings still on the table. We dont know, no one but the key players in this fiasco.. and some of them likely just playing it by ear, day-day, no real final determination has been made, everything in red-hot flux. Put it this way... expect anything & everything... the unexpected... more insanity. We just dont know...Like Aliens... inter dimensional? Inter-stellar? Is it us, we ourselves coming back from the future? Are we the Aliens on planet earth?...

Ja... so many questions TFP.

 

[CasualFan]

I've been pitching this story to a lot of people in the media (well, two people in the media) because I want to see the reaction to a Phoenix-Vegas move right now in today's atmosphere. I can't get anyone to touch it with a 10 foot pole. I'm starting to think we may be the crazy ones because we're all so deep into the hole.

I don't think there is anything crazy about analyzing the information available and creating a probability assessment from it. I mean, anyone with a business background who takes the time to review the series of transactions that has occurred can draw logical inferences. They're not presented as gospel, they're presented as a more-likely-than-not standard that reasonable people tend to use. The crazy part seems to come mostly form folks who have a fanatical devotion to a particular outcome. They see things through a narrow lens and their thoughts tend to be binary. It's either "pro-this" or "anti-that" with no ability to appreciate nuance. It's like they just want to cheer for whichever side they're on and anyone who presents any evidence to the contrary, no matter how valid, is evil enemy etc. But for the most part, these are low-information people to begin with, which is a great segue to...

The media are mostly unqualified to discuss any aspect of this so them not touching it wouldn't seem to matter - just as were they reporting relo as a thing, it wouldn't matter either. There have been countless reports that misidentify key information or fail to understand even basic economic and legal concepts. With whatever respect is due, the media is about the worst source of information that anyone can go to.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

We just dont know...Like Aliens... inter dimensional? Inter-stellar? Is it us, we ourselves coming back from the future? Are we the Aliens on planet earth?...

 

[blues10]

Perhaps I am missing something here. Mayor of Phoneix can see a multi-sport arena facilty in the future. This facility would include the Suns, Coyotes and some other teams.

If Tony was dancing down the arena path of dreams with other entities ready to make an arena announcement within days should he not have informed the fine politicians at the city of Phoenix that he already has plans or is this Lebeesur's promised arena announcement?

Craig Harris saying the Coyotes are open to sharing an arena with the Suns gives me this odd feeling that Tony does not have any other arena plans. If he did wouldn't the Coyotes be saying that it is great that the City of Phoenix is open to a multi sport facility in the future and we are honoured that they would want to partner with us but we have our own arena plans to be announced shortly.

I am getting a feeling that Tony doesn't have an arena announcement forthcoming unless I am completely missing something.

 

[Whileee]

There are a lot of assumptions going that way based on a healthy brew of data points mixed with preconceived notions.

I used to be religious but am not anymore. One of the reasons why is when I started questioning my church's validity, one of the leaders told me, "First thing you have to do is accept the unchangeable truth that this is God's church. That is irrefutable fact."

I get that feeling a lot around these megathreads, in that a lot of folks around here drive their stake into the ground by saying that it is an incontrovertible fact that the Coyotes cannot survive in Arizona. Then, like dogs on a chain, they dash out to make their opinions known, but always orbiting that anchor to which their chain is tied.

I much prefer the scientific method, in that you proceed with the intent of proving your thesis wrong rather than trying to find supporting evidence that it is right, and only by eliminating all other possibilities do you come to a final conclusion.

So you're right, there is a lot of data indicating that a relocation is possible; however, there is also some data indicating that the team is not going to move this season that hasn't been eliminated from consideration. So for me it's impossible to be satisfied with the iron-clad conclusions others have come to.

For me, it's all about the business. By all accounts they were a marginal business when everything was going right, and were losing a hefty sum even with the Glendale subsidy. How does an ownership group that needed a loan secured against a public subsidy and an $85 million line of credit now manage financially for a few years in a makeshift lease arrangement? They insisted on an out clause for a reason. Unless they've found investors willing to put huge sums into the franchise with a very uncertain future in terms of arena, I just don't see how they sustain the business. They are so far behind financially already.

 

[BattleBorn]

For me, it's all about the business. By all accounts they were a marginal business when everything was going right, and were losing a hefty sum even with the Glendale subsidy. How does an ownership group that needed a loan secured against a public subsidy and an $85 million line of credit now manage financially for a few years in a makeshift lease arrangement? They insisted on an out clause for a reason. Unless they've found investors willing to put huge sums into the franchise with a very uncertain future in terms of arena, I just don't see how they sustain the business. They are so far behind financially already.

This is where I am. My Vegas thing makes it a little cloudier, though I try to avoid the potential bias.

This leads me to believe that if they don't sell or move soon they were not losing and are not losing as much as we all think they are.

 

[Whileee]

Perhaps I am missing something here. Mayor of Phoneix can see a multi-sport arena facilty in the future. This facility would include the Suns, Coyotes and some other teams.

If Tony was dancing down the arena path of dreams with other entities ready to make an arena announcement within days should he not have informed the fine politicians at the city of Phoenix that he already has plans or is this Lebeesur's promised arena announcement?

Craig Harris saying the Coyotes are open to sharing an arena with the Suns gives me this odd feeling that Tony does not have any other arena plans. If he did wouldn't the Coyotes be saying that it is great that the City of Phoenix is open to a multi sport facility in the future and we are honoured that they would want to partner with us but we have our own arena plans to be announced shortly.

I am getting a feeling that Tony doesn't have an arena announcement forthcoming unless I am completely missing something.

Yup. LeBlank said he'd have an arena announcent in two weeks with shovels in the ground in 9-12 months. That doesn't seem to be the Phoenix option, so what else will he announce? "We've got an arena plan that will begin construction in several months, but we're open to ditching that plan if we can work something out with the Sun's in Phoenix."

 

[Fugu]

There are a lot of assumptions going that way based on a healthy brew of data points mixed with preconceived notions.

I used to be religious but am not anymore. One of the reasons why is when I started questioning my church's validity, one of the leaders told me, "First thing you have to do is accept the unchangeable truth that this is God's church. That is irrefutable fact."

I get that feeling a lot around these megathreads, in that a lot of folks around here drive their stake into the ground by saying that it is an incontrovertible fact that the Coyotes cannot survive in Arizona. Then, like dogs on a chain, they dash out to make their opinions known, but always orbiting that anchor to which their chain is tied.

I much prefer the scientific method, in that you proceed with the intent of proving your thesis wrong rather than trying to find supporting evidence that it is right, and only by eliminating all other possibilities do you come to a final conclusion.

So you're right, there is a lot of data indicating that a relocation is possible; however, there is also some data indicating that the team is not going to move this season that hasn't been eliminated from consideration. So for me it's impossible to be satisfied with the iron-clad conclusions others have come to.

The problem for those of us trying to analyze the situation is simply one of incomplete information. As Casual points out, the next best thing is to assign probabilities to possible outcomes, and to ask questions about how things "can" work, not unlike scenario modeling in new business assessment.

If I had the information Bettman has, I'd have all the answers.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

For me, it's all about the business. By all accounts they were a marginal business when everything was going right, and were losing a hefty sum even with the Glendale subsidy. How does an ownership group that needed a loan secured against a public subsidy and an $85 million line of credit now manage financially for a few years in a makeshift lease arrangement? They insisted on an out clause for a reason. Unless they've found investors willing to put huge sums into the franchise with a very uncertain future in terms of arena, I just don't see how they sustain the business. They are so far behind financially already.

I think to me it all comes down to Andy Barroway and Gary Drummond. At some point in the very recent past, these two guys changed the dynamic of the IceArizona group. It wasn't until Drummond got more involved that we started hearing about the team having money to sign bigger FA players, and it wasn't until Barroway ramped back up to majority ownership again that we started hearing about moving the farm team to Arizona.

Now, what does this mean? Does it mean that Barroway and Drummond are trying to boost the value of the team in order to get a better selling price from Foley? Maybe. Does it mean that they had a come-to-Jesus meeting with Bettman to start looking like a team that isn't the Blue Light Special of the NHL? That could be possible too. It may very well be that what we all thought was a lack of money was simply a lack of will to spend money. Who really knows?

The only thing that's stayed constant is the vomiting of rainbow-colored burrito squirts from Anthony LeBlanc's mouth.

 

[CasualFan]

I love the Alien guy from History Channel.

 

[Killion]

I love the Alien guy from History Channel.

Giorgio Tsoukalos?.... ya... Dead Ringer for the Bass Player from a Flock of Seagulls... Big fan of Flock of Seagulls were you CF?

 

[Dirty Old Man]

What is the wisdom for the opposite view other than the fact that nothing has happened?

Well, that's kinda it, but...

...a perfect example just today, the potential of an AHL team moving to Tucson. For a team in greater Phoenix and planning on staying - makes perfect sense. Farm team only 90 miles away in a 500Kish market with no pro sports (for the non U of A crowd), not even a minor league baseball team in what was until recently the spring training home of multiple teams.

But, wait, how can we make it fit the relo narrative? "Las Vegas is *not that far* from Tucson!"

It seems for someone unabashedly anti-relo like myself, that for years there have been people on here who take any fact and try to make it fit the relo story. It's been going on for...7 years? And the team's still in Arizona. It's as if some people want the relo *So Bad* that they try *too hard* to make the facts fit their story (I won't go into religious comparisons, other than to say...it's not dissimilar). And of course people on the other side would see it the other way. No surprise there.

"There're no fans". And yet, they remain. "They'll never make money". And yet, they remain. "They're pure evil". And yet, they remain. (And if they move in 2045..."SEE? TOLDJA!") That's really my only purpose ever hanging here : I learn some things from some people, consider things I might not otherwise consider, and needle others who I feel need to be needled.

 

[TheLegend]

More truthfully, "we continuously failed to comply with the terms of our agreement with the City of Glendale, and then refused to renegotiate a fair lease agreement that would have kept us in Glendale for the long term."

Now here is a prime example of projecting "opinion" and "probabilities" as "truth" based solely upon one side.

But then there's really nothing wrong with that, as long as one can keep it all in perspective

I love the Alien guy from History Channel.

I love that meme....

Phoenix CXIV: The Aliens Have Landed

 

[blues10]

Yup. LeBlank said he'd have an arena announcent in two weeks with shovels in the ground in 9-12 months. That doesn't seem to be the Phoenix option, so what else will he announce? "We've got an arena plan that will begin construction in several months, but we're open to ditching that plan if we can work something out with the Sun's in Phoenix."

That would then indicate that the City of Phoenix is not IA's plan.

As for the discussion surrounding the AHL team a few things come to mind.

Say hello to Lakehead Yale Sports Holdings. The group looking to bring a professional or major junior hockey team to Thunder Bay is trying to get people used to calling them Lakehead Yale Sports Holdings. CEO Anthony Leblanc says that has been the official name for about a year after Ice Edge Holdings was disbanded.

http://www.magic999.ca/news/say-hello-lakehead-yale-sports-holdings-0

IceCaps leaving Newfoundland for Thunder Bay

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/icecaps-leaving-newfoundland-for-thunder-bay/

Foley just last week.

Foley’s group has entertained discussions with potential municipalities to locate a minor-league affiliate. One possibility is Reno, Nev., according to Foley, where tax benefits could help land a team. Another option is the Central Valley in California. Foley said the priority is to ensure players “can get up and down quickly.”

http://www.tsn.ca/las-vegas-owner-chimes-in-on-nhl-expansion-1.467587

No mention of Tuscon.

 

[Whileee]

Now here is a prime example of projecting "opinion" and "probabilities" as "truth" based solely upon one side.

But then there's really nothing wrong with that, as long as one can keep it all in perspective

I love that meme....

Phoenix CXIV: The Aliens Have Landed

I was specifically critiquing LeBlanc's public statements about how and why the GRA became non-viable as an arena option for the Coyotes. Perhaps you didn't like the rhetorical flourish, but I don't think there's anything non-factual about what I conveyed.

There is ample evidence that IA was non-compliant with the lease.

There is ample evidence that Glendale was interested in renegotiating the lease agreement and that IA refused, choosing instead to threaten a $200 million lawsuit against Glendale.

I won't bother to go back and produce the evidence, but I'm sure you know where to find it.

If you prefer LeBlanc's version of the events, that's your prerogative. I don't think that qualifies as a more objective viewpoint, though.

 

[blues10]

I was specifically critiquing LeBlanc's public statements about how and why the GRA became non-viable as an arena option for the Coyotes. Perhaps you didn't like the rhetorical flourish, but I don't think there's anything non-factual about what I conveyed.

There is ample evidence that IA was non-compliant with the lease.

There is ample evidence that Glendale was interested in renegotiating the lease agreement and that IA refused, choosing instead to threaten a $200 million lawsuit against Glendale.

I won't bother to go back and produce the evidence, but I'm sure you know where to find it.

If you prefer LeBlanc's version of the events, that's your prerogative. I don't think that qualifies as a more objective viewpoint, though.

Those were the days my friend.

"This is cheap political gamesmanship," LeBlanc said. "They have no case."

He also affirmed NHL commissioner Gary Bettman's comments during Game 4 of the Stanley Cup Final. "I'm really not concerned about the Coyotes," Bettman admitted. "If I lived in Glendale, I would be concerned about my government."

LeBlanc said the whole situation is a threat to try and get the team to renegotiate the existing deal, and one that came out of the blue, at that.

LeBlanc said the Coyotes and their lawyers will fight the decision tooth and nail, and that he expects the court to uphold the original lease agreement, which is barely two years old. He added that there's no way the club will enter into a new, renegotiated deal with the city, but said there's no real contingency plan should a judge rule that Glendale has the right to terminate the lease.

http://www.thescore.com/news/778764

 

[Llama19]

Phoenix Mayor Greg Stanton in State of the City: Cheering an arena, blasting Arizona leaders

To quote:

"Phoenix already has a permanent tourism tax on hotel and motel stays and car rentals. Phoenix is in the process of selling the city-owned Sheraton hotel and the Translational Genomics Research Institute building downtown, projects supported by the tourism tax. By getting those buildings off its books, Phoenix could potentially free up revenue to help pay for a new stadium.

But Stanton's aspirations for a new arena face many obstacles. City Councilman Jim Waring, who attended the speech, said he's doubtful taxpayers will support the proposal, which would require a vote by Phoenix residents.

"This will add to the collective tax burden," Waring said. "We have lost, I think, the central focus of what cities are supposed to do.""

Source: http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ty-coyotes-suns-police-body-cameras/83214608/