Phoenix CXII: The Devil is in the Details

[Killion]

It depends on the situation.

If they co-tenant with the Suns, they are dead meat. They are better off relocating out of state, IMO.

But if they partner with the tribe out on the reservation, there is a real possibility of some "creative financing" that could improve the team's bottom line, thanks to the lack of red tape that they'd find with all the special tax districting and governmental oversight they would encounter in Tempe/Mesa.

The prevailing theory is that the only thing keeping corporate sponsorship sparse with the franchise is that they're in Glendale and not "centrally located" but I don't personally buy that. But it's true that that assumption factors into the move across town as well.

No, I dont buy it either. Pixie Dust. Magic Elixir. Minor move a game changing geographic cure? Not a chance....And yes, totally agree, the only "hope" really would be to do a deal with the Tribe but then their eyes seem fixed on the bigger prize, the Suns. So do they blink first & charge ahead hoping that in building a dual purpose arena Sarver will eventually take up tenancy? Im not seeing it. Raises all kinds of questions, more than I can even be bothered to post. Highly problematical & complicated and the more complicated the greater the chance things go Boom. What strikes anyone, just fundamentally, where, from whom does IA even find the money to contribute & how then do they carry that debt on top of the debt owing to the NHL while covering what will surely be on-going losses? It just doesnt hold up under scrutiny. Then theres the whole issue of Sovereign Nationhood. Potential for loss of control, jeopardy, not insignificant despite Bettmans comments that no, not a concern. Well, excuse me, but it is. Delusional to think or suggest otherwise, try & sell that Mulligan your assuming your audience is just plain stupid. Insult to peoples intelligence. "Not a problem"? Bull**** its not. Find dozens, hundreds of beyond messed up Private/Native Partnerships that blew sky high. That is seriously risky business unless you really REALLY know what your doing and even then.... and these guys, the NHL & IA, they havent got a clue. Never in the history of all sports & leagues has anything been handled so badly. Appalling.

Killion,

When the lease guarantees to IA all the revenues form any game nights, just what exactly "needed revenues" do those 41 filled nights bring to AEG?

I am really curious about this. It must be something I do not understand, because, for the life of me, I can only see those 41 dates as 'promotion for the city and the area' because I can't see what tangible benefit they are to either the city or to the arena manager.

There are several tangible & intangible benefits to AEG in having the Coyotes remain at least through next season (if not beyond). I know you like specifics so what we need here is a copy of the Agreement between Glendale & IA (2yr Lease) and... a copy of the Mgmnt Agreement between the COG & AEG (and thats not available at this moment in time -maybe mid April). Sorry to be vague but Im not about to just "throw stuff out there" but will say that yes, there are sure to be certain monetary considerations & advantages for AEG x's pre-season, home & playoff games, sponsorship sales & bookings through association & so on.

 

[cbcwpg]

No, I dont buy it either. Pixie Dust. Magic Elixir. Minor move a game changing geographic cure? Not a chance....And yes, totally agree, the only "hope" really would be to do a deal with the Tribe but then their eyes seem fixed on the bigger prize, the Suns. So do they blink first & charge ahead hoping that in building a dual purpose arena Sarver will eventually take up tenancy? Im not seeing it. Raises all kinds of questions, more than I can even be bothered to post. Highly problematical & complicated and the more complicated the greater the chance things go Boom. What strikes anyone, just fundamentally, where, from whom does IA even find the money to contribute & how then do they carry that debt on top of the debt owing to the NHL while covering what will surely be on-going losses? It just doesnt hold up under scrutiny. Then theres the whole issue of Sovereign Nationhood. Potential for loss of control, jeopardy, not insignificant despite Bettmans comments that no, not a concern. Well, excuse me, but it is. Delusional to think or suggest otherwise, try & sell that Mulligan your assuming your audience is just plain stupid. Insult to peoples intelligence. "Not a problem"? Bull**** its not. Find dozens, hundreds of beyond messed up Private/Native Partnerships that blew sky high. That is seriously risky business unless you really REALLY know what your doing and even then....

That's the real part that just boggles my mind....

You have an ownership group that fought to get a $15MM/yr subsidy just to help reduce the losses they have to deal with on an annual basis and/or pay off debt, and now we are suppose to believe this same ownership group has the money to contribute to building an new arena somewhere?

I understand the whole business mantra of always trying to use other people's money, but if you are going to partner with someone in a new facility, you have to be bringing something to the table money wise. I just can't believe that someone out there is going to partner up with IA and is going to spend say $400MM-$500MM to build a facility, and the only thing IA can bring to the table is 41 event dates.... Event dates mind you that IA is going to be expecting to receive all the revenues from, as a minimum.

 

[Fugu]

I know this is beating a dead horse but IA may have been given the impression Glendale was okay with them taking Tindall in.

But..... yes.... I agree they should have realized who they were dealing with and not opened themselves up to that mistake.

Ah, no, TL. Not my POV at all. They're a bunch of liars who took advantage of the ignorant and well out of their league councilors and former mayor. Then they failed to provide financial information the city felt they were contractually obligated to get. They deserved what they got, though the team (players, GM, coaches) and fans certainly did not!

 

[CasualFan]

I think Feckless provided an excellent blueprint for this. Looking closer at the reported options leaves me a bit curious though:

SCOTTSDALE: Salt River-Maricopa Pima Indian reservation. Location of Talking Stick Resort and Salt River Fields, the Diamondbacks' new spring training facility, as well as an entertainment/dining complex.

Makes sense. I think it would be great if this happened.

PHOENIX: In or around the current location of Talking Stick Resort Arena (formerly US Airways Arena, formerly America West Arena, etc.). The idea here is that TSRA will be repurposed into a consumer complex or mall and that the new barn would be built somewhere adjacent. Unfortunately, it also means that the Coyotes would co-tenant with the Phoenix Suns, which is worst-case scenario for team revenues.

Suns have years left on lease. Suns have millions in deferred revenue owed to them as part of lease. Sarver seems to have big time political pull. Sarver may not actually even want to share new arena with hockey team. Does not make sense.

TEMPE: Located in the general vicinity of Karsten Golf Course by ASU. Built in conjunction with ASU on University-owned grounds.

ASU AFD does not currently include NHL caliber arena in their master plan. The master plan can be amended though. However, the purpose of the AFD is to generate revenue by developing the parcels in the district and then using the revenue to fund the creation/renovation/maintenance of athletic facilities. Sharing revenues (or outright giving revenues) to the Coyotes is in conflict with the purpose of the district. There is no amount of marketing partnership that reconciles the conflict. Also, NCAA cash sports are football and basketball; not hockey. Lastly, district will not likely have bonding capacity to fund arena construction until Phase II at earliest. Does not make sense.

MESA: Location to be adjacent to or in the vicinity of Sloan Park, the Chicago Cubs' spring training facility. Nominally in Mesa, but only two miles east of the Tempe location at the junction of the 101 and 202 Loop freeways.

Mesa has a city ordinance that requires public vote for any expenditure on arena over $1.5MM. Arizona State legislature is not in session. There is no governmental process currently active that could approve any form of partnership at this location. Does not make sense (and in all likelihood not even technically possible in the timeline indicated)

That said, things that don't make sense happen all the time. But it is very interesting that no politician is out in front of this. A main reason pols support pro teams is to get their name and face out in the media (see Gary Sherwood, 2013). Something seems way, way off with this whole "everybody wants to build us an arena but nobody other than Stanton will comment on it". I guess we'll see. Sure will be entertaining

 

[Gotaf7]

Maybe they get 3 new arenas to play in, they play a third of their schedule in each new arena. For playoffs they could use the arena that had the best attendance.

 

[MNNumbers]

There are several tangible & intangible benefits to AEG in having the Coyotes remain at least through next season (if not beyond). I know you like specifics so what we need here is a copy of the Agreement between Glendale & IA (2yr Lease) and... a copy of the Mgmnt Agreement between the COG & AEG (and thats not available at this moment in time -maybe mid April). Sorry to be vague but Im not about to just "throw stuff out there" but will say that yes, there are sure to be certain monetary considerations & advantages for AEG x's pre-season, home & playoff games, sponsorship sales & bookings through association & so on.

Well, I have a copy of the amended lease. It guarantees all revenue from tickets, concessions sponsorships, parking on game nights to IA and the hockey team next year (16-17) regardless of whether they are managing the place or not. I don't see any benefits ($$) left for the city.

Now, if you want to argue that, going forward, there is direct benefit, I can't deny that. However, that would be a decidedly lop-sided rental arrangement. (Team plays there, but city and/or manager gets some of the concessions....).

I continue to think, because no one has ever showed me with any detail, that the presence of the team offers the city only one thing.... The ability to say "Home of the Coyotes." Otherwise, all the team does in respect to the manager and/or city, is tie up 41 nights that could be used otherwise.

One thing that backs this up is the 2 fee-schedules in the 2013 SMG bid. The presence of the team was going to cause Glendale to pay SMG more than they would have paid with no team.

 

[Llama19]

...That said, things that don't make sense happen all the time. But it is very interesting that no politician is out in front of this. A main reason pols support pro teams is to get their name and face out in the media (see Gary Sherwood, 2013). Something seems way, way off with this whole "everybody wants to build us an arena but nobody other than Stanton will comment on it". I guess we'll see. Sure will be entertaining

Exactly...there has been no politician/official spokesperson that is confirming any of LeBluster's(tm) conjecture...

 

[kihekah19*]

I just finished watching the hour of town hall deception. OMG, this guy has some pretty serious Psychological problems. He honestly believes this deception and is willing to stand up in front of his victims in an effort to squeeze more from these folks that worship at his alter.

So which is it mesa? Does ol' Tony suffer from psychological problems in which he believes his "deception", as you state above? Or is it - "This poor guy is as nervous as a cat, can't even sit in the chair because he knows he is lying to all of these good folks" - as you stated in a previous post?

 

[Killion]

That's the real part that just boggles my mind.....

... it does indeed, yes. They cant even come up with the scratch to own the team, to have purchased it following so called normal NHL procedure, put down what essentially equates to bottle return money, financed up the ying-yang with initially Foretress receiving the full $15M in "Management Fee's" & just on & on & on. Its a complete fake, facade. And now everyone is being asked to suspend reality yet again & to believe this nonsense about a new arena? As CF outlined above & here as quoted...

I think Feckless provided an excellent blueprint for this. Looking closer at the reported options leaves me a bit curious though:

SCOTTSDALE: Salt River-Maricopa Pima Indian reservation. Location of Talking Stick Resort and Salt River Fields, the Diamondbacks' new spring training facility, as well as an entertainment/dining complex.... Makes sense. I think it would be great if this happened.

... this is the only option thats even semi-believable & ya does make some sense though tell ya what?.... I wouldnt touch it with a barge pole... IceArizona doesnt even own a barge pole & cant afford one.... absolute recipe' for disaster & Id be very surprised if the Salt-River Pima Band goes ahead with this with the Coyotes as the anchor tenant & IceArizona demanding they not only Manage the facility but so too capture & keep just about every single dime the place would turn over. They simply cannot survive without that & that right there; Deal Breaker... I cant even seeing it getting off the ground, holes dug. Conversation ends when the SR-Pima Band ask how much IA plans to contribute.... then theres the whole Sovereign Nation aspect to this even if the $$$ wasnt a problem. Obviously Im no Lawyer but that would make me very very nervous and thats playing it straight & honest, contributing funds to construction, mutually beneficial revenue splits & so on and I knew what I was doing in terms of running a franchise, booking the venue etc etc etc.

 

[TheLegend]

So which is it mesa? Does ol' Tony suffer from psychological problems in which he believes his "deception", as you state above? Or is it - "This poor guy is as nervous as a cat, can't even sit in the chair because he knows he is lying to all of these good folks" - as you stated in a previous post?

Do embellishment rules apply??

 

[TheLegend]

... it does indeed, yes. They cant even come up with the scratch to own the team, to have purchased it following so called normal NHL procedure, put down what essentially equates to bottle return money, financed up the ying-yang with initially Foretress receiving the full $15M in "Management Fee's" & just on & on & on. Its a complete fake, facade. And now everyone is being asked to suspend reality yet again & to believe this nonsense about a new arena? As CF outlined above & here as quoted...

K....

If you have the money but can get what you want without spending it. Wouldn't you go that route??

... this is the only option thats even semi-believable & ya does make some sense though tell ya what?.... I wouldnt touch it with a barge pole... IceArizona doesnt even own a barge pole & cant afford one.... absolute recipe' for disaster & Id be very surprised if the Salt-River Pima Band goes ahead with this with the Coyotes as the anchor tenant & IceArizona demanding they not only Manage the facility but so too capture & keep just about every single dime the place would turn over. They simply cannot survive without that & that right there; Deal Breaker... I cant even seeing it getting off the ground, holes dug. Conversation ends when the SR-Pima Band ask how much IA plans to contribute.... then theres the whole Sovereign Nation aspect to this even if the $$$ wasnt a problem. Obviously Im no Lawyer but that would make me very very nervous and thats playing it straight & honest, contributing funds to construction, mutually beneficial revenue splits & so on and I knew what I was doing in terms of running a franchise, booking the venue etc etc etc.

Not going to go back and look for it.... but somewhere back in one of the rush of articles in the local media, LeBlanc stated IA could provide additional funds towards a new arena project if it was necessary. So until someone can prove they don't have it, you can't totally ignore the possibility.

That's what makes these discussions difficult at times. IA certainly hasn't enamoured themselves as "honest injuns" (pun intended) based on what we've seen to date.

 

[TheLegend]

Exactly...there has been no politician/official spokesperson that is confirming any of LeBluster's(tm) conjecture...

Maybe it's because they saw how Glendale blew off all of their toes doing that.

 

[Mightygoose]

Well if any civic leaders has plans on their city fronting the majority of the funds and having the all but all of the revenues plus any other extra $$$ to team they better be confirming that they're on the same page as IA and come out real soon.

These next6 weeks can fly by rather quick.

 

[Llama19]

Maybe it's because they saw how Glendale blew off all of their toes doing that.

LeBluster(tm) and company did that to themselves long ago...

Via Tindall, et al., and the Contract Compliance Review...

 

[GordonGraham]

I love this, if they manage to get a brand new 400-500M arena without paying for it
Leblanc should get an award named after himself like owner of the year

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I love this, if they manage to get a brand new 400-500M arena without paying for it
Leblanc should get an award named after himself like owner of the year

The worst part of that idea is that there would be a guaranteed winner of that award every year, and Leblanc himself wouldn't just win it consecutively.

 

[Llama19]

I love this, if they manage to get a brand new 400-500M arena without paying for it
Leblanc should get an award named after himself like owner of the year

Well...he did get CEO of the Month...

To quote:

"On Aug. 5, 2013, LeBlanc and his partners were able to achieve a goal years in the making. It was during this third attempt to purchase the Coyotes from the NHL that LeBlanc as a part of IceArizona Acquisition Co., LLC was successful.

After a deal with a third party fell through in early 2013, Daryl Jones reached out to LeBlanc again, proposing they attempt the purchase one last time. George Gosbee, Daryl Jones and LeBlanc met together in Glendale. “ It was the first time that we had the right people focusing on the right roles,” he said."

Source: http://c-levelmagazine.com/ceo-of-the-month-anthony-leblanc/

 

[Major4Boarding]

... it does indeed, yes. They cant even come up with the scratch to own the team, to have purchased it following so called normal NHL procedure, put down what essentially equates to bottle return money, financed up the ying-yang with initially Foretress receiving the full $15M in "Management Fee's" & just on & on & on. Its a complete fake, facade. And now everyone is being asked to suspend reality yet again & to believe this nonsense about a new arena? As CF outlined above & here as quoted...

K...

If you have the money but can get what you want without spending it. Wouldn't you go that route??

Well, sure... if you have the money.

See, this string has a very short run rate because if purchasing a franchise included

* A lender of last resort
* League loan
* 90 days same as cash 5 year deferment on repayment of that loan
* League's LOC to pay off lender of last resort

I really don't understand having all those mechanisms translates to an ownership group sitting on stockpiles of reserve capital and the League allowing it to happen. Reminds me of Spicoli paying for his munchies at the Mi-T-Mart counter.

 

[TheLegend]

LeBluster(tm) and company did that to themselves long ago...

Via Tindall, et al., and the Contract Compliance Review...

Doesn't address the fact that Glendale shares a large part of the blame in its own actions nor the point of politicians remaining silent, Llama. Try another deflection.

 

[MNNumbers]

Doesn't address the fact that Glendale shares a large part of the blame in its own actions nor the point of politicians remaining silent, Llama. Try another deflection.

I think I agree in a small measure, Legend.

However, it is difficult to analyze Glendale's share in this, because, while Glendale is surely an 'entity', the individuals who actually made the decisions have varied, so how does one assign blame?

That said, I cannot get away from the conclusion that the NHL and LeBlanc were not entirely forthcoming with truth in this matter. So, I think the greater blame falls on them.

As to LeBlanc, I say that, even if he felt somewhat assured by CoG in regard to Tyndall (which I am not sure of, but saying, if.....), they surely should have realized that 3 members of the council were not their friends, and thus should have been very careful. I mean, if you say of Glendale, "They should have been more aware and not let the NHL take advantage them", then you must also say of LeBlanc, "He needed to careful because he knew he had agreement with some people who were actually his enemies."

 

[Fairview]

" all agree that an early May timeframe for a commitment is real and someone will meet that timeline"- John Shannon

They did not say May 2016, so for this to have any believability at all they must mean May 2017. Maybe Bettman and his lap dog are thinking 2016 but their victims would have a slightly better chance of MAYBE putting something together in a year. 6 weeks?? Doubt it. All is not lost for the Clowns, however, they still have to come up with something kind of positive to say by the end of June. That will be when they reveal to their fans that they have another year of hockey to be played in GRA [ we can call it "The Contractually Obligated Season" ]and isn't that wonderful !!! They can then start all over with the deadline crap... super duper progressed talks..here we go again. We should start some type of pool to see when they change a deadline and what the new deadline will be.

 

[Llama19]

" all agree that an early May timeframe for a commitment is real and someone will meet that timeline"- John Shannon

They did not say May 2016, so for this to have any believability at all they must mean May 2017. Maybe Bettman and his lap dog are thinking 2016 but their victims would have a slightly better chance of MAYBE putting something together in a year. 6 weeks?? Doubt it. All is not lost for the Clowns, however, they still have to come up with something kind of positive to say by the end of June. That will be when they reveal to their fans that they have another year of hockey to be played in GRA [ we can call it "The Contractually Obligated Season" ]and isn't that wonderful !!! They can then start all over with the deadline crap... super duper progressed talks..here we go again. We should start some type of pool to see when they change a deadline and what the new deadline will be.

Should there be another season, I think you may have just given us the next thread title:

Phoenix CXIII: Contractually Obligated Season

 

[TheLegend]

I think I agree in a small measure, Legend.

However, it is difficult to analyze Glendale's share in this, because, while Glendale is surely an 'entity', the individuals who actually made the decisions have varied, so how does one assign blame?

That said, I cannot get away from the conclusion that the NHL and LeBlanc were not entirely forthcoming with truth in this matter. So, I think the greater blame falls on them.

As to LeBlanc, I say that, even if he felt somewhat assured by CoG in regard to Tyndall (which I am not sure of, but saying, if.....), they surely should have realized that 3 members of the council were not their friends, and thus should have been very careful. I mean, if you say of Glendale, "They should have been more aware and not let the NHL take advantage them", then you must also say of LeBlanc, "He needed to careful because he knew he had agreement with some people who were actually his enemies."

Fair enough. And I also stated earlier in repose to Fugu that IA should have not so careless into thinking political climates could never change. When in reality they do nearly every election.

I'm not trying to absolve IA of anything here. Or the NHL. Everyone has to share some blame in this.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

All is not lost for the Clowns, however, they still have to come up with something kind of positive to say by the end of June. That will be when they reveal to their fans that they have another year of hockey to be played in GRA [ we can call it "The Contractually Obligated Season" ]and isn't that wonderful !!!

Um... not to interrupt your schadenfreudegasm, but everyone already knows there's another year of hockey to be played at GRA no matter what actually happens (I say "actually" because I'm trying to project reality rather than camelid fever dreams of sudden June relocations ).

The next thread title should be Phoenix CXIII: Hand In My Pocket.

 

[Fairview]

Yes i know that and you know that and everyone on this thread knows that. But I have found numerous statements elsewhere where there seems to be a general consensus that the team is going somewhere anywhere in Arizona but Glendale. Can't happen soon enough I have read.Maybe Tony needs to tell them different?