Phoenix CXII: The Devil is in the Details

[Fugu]

Many great ideas, but wanting to be true to the culture of the Pima people, I'm not sure they had vision quests, or smoke signals...

Last thread:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2017505

*We're waiting for the March COG meeting to discuss the appointment of AEG as arena manager.

*Phoenix mayor indicates an interest in a new arena, but acknowledges that is several years away

*Lots of conjecture about Native American group's interest in arenas and such; and ASU's aspirations -- also several years into the future

Click to read more...

 

[Melrose Munch]

So are they moving to tempe or what?

 

[Fugu]

So are they moving to tempe or what?

Didn't you read my bullet points?

 

[Llama19]

For the Coyotes, it appears that their TV ratings are dropping...

0.51 last year (average approximately 9,068 households)
0.41 this year (average approximately 7,255 households)

Sources:
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2015/04/20/Media/NHL-RSNs.aspx

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2016/02/15/Media/NHL-RSNs.aspx

The devil is certainly in the details...

 

[Headshot77]

For the Coyotes, it appears that their TV ratings are dropping...

0.51 last year (average approximately 9,068 households)
0.41 this year (average approximately 7,255 households)

Sources:
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2015/04/20/Media/NHL-RSNs.aspx

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2016/02/15/Media/NHL-RSNs.aspx

The devil is certainly in the details...

Those ratings are atrocious. There should never be fewer people watching on TV than there are in the arena.

 

[cheswick]

I'm curious if there has been any noticeable drop off in attendance this winter due to fewer Canadians spending winters down south cause of the loonie.

 

[Killion]

Many great ideas, but wanting to be true to the culture of the Pima people, I'm not sure they had vision quests, or smoke signals...

Thats a good title.... same as David Paulides 4th book in the series called Missing 411: The Devils in the Details.... Strange & mysterious disappearances of people from National Parks & wilderness areas throughout North America, 100's of cases in Arizona alone.... almost as strange & mysterious as to just how exactly Anthony Leblanc pulls a 17,000+ seat arena back from the future by May. Space-time-continuum. Need to create one huge Hell of a hole of a damn big vortex though. Building that size?... Sure hopes he's real careful where he drops er' down. Avoids parking lots, people.... I suppose its possible. Theoretically at any rate....

 

[Glacial]

I'm curious if there has been any noticeable drop off in attendance this winter due to fewer Canadians spending winters down south cause of the loonie.

If that were the case, there should be a discernible drop (or change in visible jerseys) in all the usual snowbird destinations (Glendale, Tampa, Sunrise, where else?).

 

[MNNumbers]

I'm curious if there has been any noticeable drop off in attendance this winter due to fewer Canadians spending winters down south cause of the loonie.

ESPN's numbers, which are the official from the NHL, show a 200/game drop from last year's full season numbers.

These numbers include comp tickets, however, so I am not sure that you can really draw any conclusion from the numbers them selves.

This much is true: At 3/4 of the season, it would require about a 14,000 average to bring the total for the whole season up to last year's figures.

 

[Llama19]

I'm curious if there has been any noticeable drop off in attendance this winter due to fewer Canadians spending winters down south cause of the loonie.

If that were the case, there should be a discernible drop (or change in visible jerseys) in all the usual snowbird destinations (Glendale, Tampa, Sunrise, where else?).

Last year, after finishing next last, attendance has actually trended downward for this season:
76.2% vs 77.9%, whereas the first season under LeBluster's(tm) ownership, it was 80.4%...

Numbers that ASU, Phoenix, and the tribe, along with the declining TV ratings, one would think, would certainly weigh in on building a new arena...

And, no, I do not believe any other local location will dramatically improve those numbers...

 

[MNNumbers]

Last year, after finishing next last, attendance has actually trended downward for this season:
76.2% vs 77.9%, whereas the first season under LeBluster's(tm) ownership, it was 80.4%...

Numbers that ASU, Phoenix, and the tribe, along with the declining TV ratings, one would think, would certainly weigh in on in building a new arena...

And, no, I do not believe any other local location will dramatically improve those numbers...

And, of course, the other side to this argument is:
How do you expect anything else when, again, last summer, the press was full of articles describing the difficulty of ownership and Glendale? Of course, there won't be any appreciable buzz developing.

And, further, the team is better this season than last, but attendance historically improves the season AFTER an improvement of the kind Arizona has right now, NOT during.

Note: The last point is relevant because Florida has an uptick in attendance this year, and 2 good things going for them: First, Broward and Viola agreed on a lease amendment that guarantees the team stays at least 7 years. Second, it is NO MINOR improvement that the Panthers see this year. It's a big improvement: the kind that brings in more fans NOW!!

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Those ratings are atrocious. There should never be fewer people watching on TV than there are in the arena.

I'd be interested to see the methodology behind the ratings calculations and what effect being moved to a secondary network or "plus" channel has. Several of the Coyotes' games this season have been shunted to FS Arizona's alternate channel. For comparison's sake, the Devils and Islanders are on MSG+ while the Rangers are on MSG - the former two teams have ratings well below and on par (respectively) with the Coyotes.

If we take these ratings at face value, yes, they're ugly - but it also calls into question the whole idea of the vast swath of hockey fans in the East Valley who are underserved by a West Valley arena they can't attend. Do these ratings mean that those underserved fans also don't watch the games on TV out of pique?

I'm curious if there has been any noticeable drop off in attendance this winter due to fewer Canadians spending winters down south cause of the loonie.

I don't have the numbers but via the eye test I haven't seen much of, if any, dropoff due to the weak loonie. I'd guesstimate that the arena is at 3/4ths capacity most nights at its lowest - around 13,000. Everybody around here is in the dark about the future of the team so I'm not surprised by this. Just glad that we don't have any of the 2009 crowds of 5,000 (generously estimated).

 

[Llama19]

And, of course, the other side to this argument is:
How do you expect anything else when, again, last summer, the press was full of articles describing the difficulty of ownership and Glendale? Of course, there won't be any appreciable buzz developing.

And, further, the team is better this season than last, but attendance historically improves the season AFTER an improvement of the kind Arizona has right now, NOT during.

Note: The last point is relevant because Florida has an uptick in attendance this year, and 2 good things going for them: First, Broward and Viola agreed on a lease amendment that guarantees the team stays at least 7 years. Second, it is NO MINOR improvement that the Panthers see this year. It's a big improvement: the kind that brings in more fans NOW!!

And, hasn't LeBluster(tm) always stated that the 'hockey' side is humming along nicely, its the 'business' side that needed attention...

Seems that LeBluster(tm) probably needed to do just the opposite for success...

 

[MNNumbers]

I'd be interested to see the methodology behind the ratings calculations and what effect being moved to a secondary network or "plus" channel has. Several of the Coyotes' games this season have been shunted to FS Arizona's alternate channel. For comparison's sake, the Devils and Islanders are on MSG+ while the Rangers are on MSG - the former two teams have ratings well below and on par (respectively) with the Coyotes.

If we take these ratings at face value, yes, they're ugly - but it also calls into question the whole idea of the vast swath of hockey fans in the East Valley who are underserved by a West Valley arena they can't attend. Do these ratings mean that those underserved fans also don't watch the games on TV out of pique?



I don't have the numbers but via the eye test I haven't seen much of, if any, dropoff due to the weak loonie. I'd guesstimate that the arena is at 3/4ths capacity most nights at its lowest - around 13,000.

ESPN says the current average is about 13,100 for the year.

 

[Llama19]

ESPN says the current average is about 13,100 for the year.

The numbers seem to indicate just treading water...

 

[The Feckless Puck]

The numbers seem to indicate just treading water...

...and this is surprising given everything going on with the franchise? "Treading Water" should have been the new thread title - the only place where the Coyotes are making any headway at all is on the ice.

 

[Mightygoose]

Last year, after finishing next last, attendance has actually trended downward for this season:
76.2% vs 77.9%, whereas the first season under LeBluster's(tm) ownership, it was 80.4%...

Numbers that ASU, Phoenix, and the tribe, along with the declining TV ratings, one would think, would certainly weigh in on building a new arena...

And, no, I do not believe any other local location will dramatically improve those numbers...

I think it would weigh very heavy for the Salt River Folks. If their end game of building an arena is to bring the Suns in then I can't see how there can be a pressing need to build an arena in the near future.

If the line of thinking that it can be a loss leader to get more people to the casinos, it will cost them between 400-500 million to build the arena plus give the lions share if not all of the concession, parking naming rights to the Coyotes just to have them along an drawing 13K at game plus compete with 2 other buildings in the same area plus no guarantee the Suns will follow?

Where is the business case? I think they're better off waiting until the Suns and open up the opt in the lease and go from there.

BTW, nice thread title but I would have amended it with The Sun Devils is in the Details. That covers 2 talked about arena sites

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I think it would weigh very heavy for the Salt River Folks. If their end game of building an arena is to bring the Suns in then I can't see how there can be a pressing need to build an arena in the near future.

If the line of thinking that it can be a loss leader to get more people to the casinos, it will cost them between 400-500 million to build the arena plus give the lions share if not all of the concession, parking naming rights to the Coyotes just to have them along an drawing 13K at game plus compete with 2 other buildings in the same area plus no guarantee the Suns will follow?

It's a circumstantial case, for sure, but if they do have the Coyotes as an anchor tenant, then they have a case to build now instead of later. Worst case scenario in that situation is that they have the newest arena in the Valley located in the Scottsdale corridor with a pro hockey team and a much more complete and better-located entertainment complex than Westgate to draw non-hockey events to their facility.

Best-case, they'll have all of that plus a massive head start over Phoenix, who would be mired in years of wrangling just to get the funding and approvals to build a new arena even if they presuppose a vote passage on the concern.

And yes, if the Salt River tribe builds an arena, it'll kick the **** out of Westgate and GRA in terms of events. Their reservation is in Scottsdale, just south of all the big money, just east of Sky Harbor Airport, just northeast of ASU, just north of Mesa Gateway Airport, and smack dab in the centerpoint between the extremes of Fountain Hills to the north and Gilbert/Mesa to the south.

 

[Llama19]

I think it would weigh very heavy for the Salt River Folks. If their end game of building an arena is to bring the Suns in then I can't see how there can be a pressing need to build an arena in the near future.

If the line of thinking that it can be a loss leader to get more people to the casinos, it will cost them between 400-500 million to build the arena plus give the lions share if not all of the concession, parking naming rights to the Coyotes just to have them along an drawing 13K at game plus compete with 2 other buildings in the same area plus no guarantee the Suns will follow?

Where is the business case? I think they're better off waiting until the Suns and open up the opt in the lease and go from there.

BTW, nice thread title but I would have amended it with The Sun Devils is in the Details. That covers 2 talked about arena sites

I would have preferred the more generic...

Phoenix CXII: The (Insert Location Here) Arena is in the Details...

Anyway...spending hundreds of millions for a few million ('LeBluster Bills') in 'potential' revenue return, does not appear to be a bet I would place...

Just picture LeBluster's(tm) face on a casino chip...

 

[Mightygoose]

It's a circumstantial case, for sure, but if they do have the Coyotes as an anchor tenant, then they have a case to build now instead of later. Worst case scenario in that situation is that they have the newest arena in the Valley located in the Scottsdale corridor with a pro hockey team and a much more complete and better-located entertainment complex than Westgate to draw non-hockey events to their facility.

Best-case, they'll have all of that plus a massive head start over Phoenix, who would be mired in years of wrangling just to get the funding and approvals to build a new arena even if they presuppose a vote passage on the concern.

And yes, if the Salt River tribe builds an arena, it'll kick the **** out of Westgate and GRA in terms of events. Their reservation is in Scottsdale, just south of all the big money, just east of Sky Harbor Airport, just northeast of ASU, just north of Mesa Gateway Airport, and smack dab in the centerpoint between the extremes of Fountain Hills to the north and Gilbert/Mesa to the south.

Very true they would get a head start but how much momentum would they lose if a modern downtown arena opens up years later...always love that new arena smell!

But yes, I would agree it would a have a better location for overall events compared to Westgate which I why I think it's far fetched that Salt River would build one just for the Coyotes. If it was realistic, I doubt AEG (never mind SMG and Spectra) would bid to manage Gila River when newer toys will open in short manner.

But I could be mistaken at the end of the day...or at least in the next 3 1/2 fortnights

 

[The Feckless Puck]

But I could be mistaken at the end of the day...or at least in the next 3 1/2 fortnights

I think that the highlighted should be a required boilerplate signature line for every single poster in these Coyotes threads, including myself...

 

[MaskedSonja]

Many great ideas, but wanting to be true to the culture of the Pima people, I'm not sure they had vision quests, or smoke signals...

Last thread:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2017505

*We're waiting for the March COG meeting to discuss the appointment of AEG as arena manager.

*Phoenix mayor indicates an interest in a new arena, but acknowledges that is several years away

*Lots of conjecture about Native American group's interest in arenas and such; and ASU's aspirations -- also several years into the future

So, it's a "hey we've hurried up and waited-HEY they called our name! They want us to....go to room 42 and.....hurry up and wait some more......"type of thing then.....

 

[Llama19]

Very true they would get a head start but how much momentum would they lose if a modern downtown arena opens up years later...always love that new arena smell!

The only smell, is not from the arena...

But yes, I would agree it would a have a better location for overall events compared to Westgate which I why I think it's far fetched that Salt River would build one just for the Coyotes. If it was realistic, I doubt AEG (never mind SMG and Spectra) would bid to manage Gila River when newer toys will open in short manner.

It is far fetched that the arena would just be for the Coyotes, and who would be the arena manager to top AEG...

But I could be mistaken at the end of the day...or at least in the next 3 1/2 fortnights

Make No Mistake, AEG will be the new arena manager, and LeBluster(tm) does not seem willing to stay, he is looking for the desert mirage of a new arena...

 

[Melrose Munch]

Didn't you read my bullet points?

Sorry fugu .


I see any solutions is another number of years down the road.

 

[Glacial]

And, no, I do not believe any other local location will dramatically improve those numbers...

Arizona consulate in Ontario?