Player Discussion Phil "The thrill", "Pizza man" Danault (Part 4) - The Final Edition

[417]

Yes and I still stand by that point, what's wrong with that point ?

35-40 ES points with tough assignments are #2 center territory.

Getting so many points from a third line with no PP time is really tough.

But KK was not in that situation at all, he was used in a way to produce offense even if on paper he was the 3rd center.

And he produced offense like like 3rd center...

Sooooo....

He was not used as a typical shutdown #3 center.

No he was used more like a quasi 3rd/4th line C with moderate PP usage.

He was getting mainly offensive zone starts and PP time so yeah his production was not on par with his deployment.[

Yeah don't agree with that.

You always asked for more responsibilities and ice time while he couldn't even deliver a decent result with the time he got.

There was no logical reason to give him more ice time.


That was not particularly directed at you, it was more of a thoughts out loud situation regarding the whole development thing.

Yes I definitely think he should have been exposed to more situations.

I mean I remember games where the Habs are down 2-3 goals in the 3rd and the coach is out there matching lines lol.

 

[canucklover123]

Damn this has gotta be the last Danault thread until he comes back in his late 30s

 

[Belial]

Damn this has gotta be the last Danault thread until he comes back in his late 30s

Bergeron is gonna sign here next season to end his career in a Habs jersey! Book it!

No need for Danault to be back

 

[417]

No one is rewriting history lol.... being 8th on a team with PP/TOI when the 3-4 people in front of you are less than 12 seconds apart is a weak use of a fact (your only fact). Arguing context every second post, one would assume you would use it.

All I did was present facts…I don’t need to argue the minutiae of the difference between 2:25 and 1:54…

All I did was challenge his notion he got “plenty of time”.

He also posted without PP time, and thats where the basis of this non sense back and fourth. Where your only fact is KK again was 8th on PP TOI/G. I did follow, please dont cut out phrases when making responses. We can always go back and see them.

Who cares if he posted without PP time…it still a contradiction.

I also didn’t change anything..have no clue what you’re talking about.

 

[417]

Can you elaborate. Because all I've seen you argue is the PP TOI of KK on a bad power play.
You refer to one stat and one stat only and that is him being 8th ...refusing to acknowledge that he is mere seconds behind 4 other players..

So here’s mere seconds behind 4 others…and? What’s that got to do with anything? Lol

Danault doesnt play PP....

Never said otherwise

Not irony, just the refusal of using context on your part about KK.

I haven’t?

because I don’t agree that he got plenty of PP time?

because i’ve also acknowledged that he wasn’t good on the PP, while also recognizing he wasn’t a key element of it.

I don’t know…I see a lot of context there

 

[Belial]

And he produced offense like like 3rd center...

Sooooo....


No he was used more like a quasi 3rd/4th line C with moderate PP usage.


Yeah don't agree with that.


Yes I definitely think he should have been exposed to more situations.

I mean I remember games where the Habs are down 2-3 goals in the 3rd and the coach is out there matching lines lol.

Yeah no he didn't!

That's the problem.


He got 16 ES points last season Mathieu Perreault got 15 points and people don't even consider him to make the opening roster.

He produced offense like a so-so shutdown #3 center while getting minutes of an offensive #2 center.

 

[417]

Yes, exactly how can't you see the light at the end of the tunnel is mindboggling, to say the least!

One guy gets the toughest minutes available and does a pretty decent job while the other guy gets fed soft minutes and he can't take advantage whatsoever.

Your point would've made sense if the roles were inverted and KK was still not getting more minutes than Danault.

But it's not the case so I seriously have no idea what you're trying to argue.

The only position that I’ve ever maintained about Kotkaniemi was that he produced according to his usage. Nothing more, nothing less.

You seem to think that he should have done more, more than players throughout the league who also had similar usage…

That’s really what’s mind boggling to me.

 

[417]

Not at all arguing Danault's lack of production, the only problem with your comparison is that one Danault's defensive FO usage is not negligible, his numbers in D zone is much larger than the mean.

This is even more so in Playoffs, when his numbers took an even bigger hit offensively but his D zone usage increased exponentially.

That is hard to argue. Grasping at straws that KK has mere seconds less than 3 players on the PP is again a weak use of a stat or usage of context.

Clear difference.

Once AGAIN…HE argued the difference in TOI…all I did was say he was 8th in avg TOI.

If you want to get involved, that’s cool, but it’s important to understand who is arguing what.

That’s fundamental to what we do here.

 

[Belial]

The only position that I’ve ever maintained about Kotkaniemi was that he produced according to his usage. Nothing more, nothing less.

You seem to think that he should have done more, more than players throughout the league who also had similar usage…

That’s really what’s mind boggling to me.

Yes, he should've done better! he managed to get 34 points as a rookie with fewer opportunities for god sake!

 

[417]

Yeah no he didn't!

That's the problem.


He got 16 ES points last season Mathieu Perreault got 15 points and people don't even consider him to make the opening roster.

He produced offense like a so-so shutdown #3 center while getting minutes of an offensive #2 center.

Minutes of an offensive #2? Lol

 

[canucklover123]

Once AGAIN…HE argued the difference in TOI…all I did was say he was 8th in avg TOI.

If you want to get involved, that’s cool, but it’s important to understand who is arguing what.

That’s fundamental to what we do here.

The unfortunate thing is I did read it, that's why i cant believe someone who continue three pages stringing to KK's pp usage


but hey, if the facts are weak, I get it, you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[417]

Yes, he should've done better! he managed to get 34 points as a rookie with fewer opportunities for god sake!

He benefitted from a lot of line stability and trust from the coaching staff early on in his rookie season..then as the team got in the middle of a playoff run, the coaching staff decided to go with vets.

Which is understandable…but ever since then, that stability and trust started to wane and it’s really never been the same.

Either way, he’s gone and it’s time to move on… but it will be interesting to see how he performs in Carolina because he will be given every opportunity to produce there, only at that point will I be comfortable with truly seeing where this player’s ceiling is.

 

[417]

The unfortunate thing is I did read it, that's why i cant believe someone who continue three pages stringing to KK's pp usage

I’ve been entertaining HIS argument.

but hey, if the facts are weak, I get it, you gotta do what you gotta do.

You don’t even know whose saying what and you out here talking about weak lol.

 

[Belial]

Minutes of an offensive #2? Lol

I think you always dismiss the fact that we rolled 4 lines all the time.

His ES TOI was lower than Danault's and Suzuki's clearly but it was not that far away.

We're talking a couple of shifts per game of a difference here.

And considering he was getting soft minutes while the other two were tasked to eat the tough matchups/minutes yes it's not crazy to expect more production from him.

 

[canucklover123]

So here’s mere seconds behind 4 others…and? What’s that got to do with anything? Lol

I mean apparently a lot if your only fact to question his opinion is this lol

Plenty of PP time?

Firstly, the Habs PP sucked

Secondly, he was 8th amongst Habs forwards in PP TOI/g.

Why would you expect one of the least used forwards on the PP, to be productive on a bottom 1/3 PP unit???

Once more...you're expecting one of the least used forwards to put up 1st line production.

The problem wasn't Kotkaniemi...its fans who have have unfair and unrealistic expectations.

 

[Belial]

The unfortunate thing is I did read it, that's why i cant believe someone who continue three pages stringing to KK's pp usage


but hey, if the facts are weak, I get it, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Gotta admire the perseverance!

 

[canucklover123]

Gotta admire the perseverance!

I dont blame the poster lol, sometimes when you know youre so deep in, you just gotta keep digging

Good for him though, takes real preserverence to prolongue this for three threads.

 

[Belial]

I dont blame the poster lol, sometimes when you know youre so deep in, you just gotta keep digging

Good for him though, takes real preserverence to prolongue this for three threads.

Yeah, @417 is fun to debate with, he usually stays on the topic and it never degenerates. We can agree or disagree but it's always fun.

 

[417]

I think you always dismiss the fact that we rolled 4 lines all the time.

His ES TOI was lower than Danault's and Suzuki's clearly but it was not that far away.

We're talking a couple of shifts per game of a difference here.

And considering he was getting soft minutes while the other two were tasked to eat the tough matchups/minutes yes it's not crazy to expect more production from him.

This team leaned HEAVILY on Danault and Suzuki…I’m not sure why you’re trying frame it like there was a ton of opportunities for anyone else to really produce beyond 25-30pts within the context of THIS team.

Like look around the league…guys with similar usage, had similar production.

 

[417]

Yeah, @417 is fun to debate with, he usually stays on the topic and it never degenerates. We can agree or disagree but it's always fun.

It never degenerates, despite your best efforts.

 

[417]

I dont blame the poster lol, sometimes when you know youre so deep in, you just gotta keep digging

Good for him though, takes real preserverence to prolongue this for three threads.

I have an intolerance for terrible takes…it’s stronger than me.

 

[canucklover123]

This team leaned HEAVILY on Danault and Suzuki…I’m not sure why you’re trying frame it like there was a ton of opportunities for anyone else to really produce beyond 25-30pts within the context of THIS team.

Like look around the league…guys with similar usage, had similar production.

I mean did KK not play most of his TOI with our most offensive catalyst this year? Can you share other players in similar situations so I can compare (not sarcasm) genuinely curious, seeing your arguing this

 

[canucklover123]

I have an intolerance for terrible takes…it’s stronger than me.

Most arguments with no facts usually are like that, I unfortunately dont understand but do show sympathy.

 

[Belial]

He benefitted from a lot of line stability and trust from the coaching staff early on in his rookie season..then as the team got in the middle of a playoff run, the coaching staff decided to go with vets.

Which is understandable…but ever since then, that stability and trust started to wane and it’s really never been the same.

Either way, he’s gone and it’s time to move on… but it will be interesting to see how he performs in Carolina because he will be given every opportunity to produce there, only at that point will I be comfortable with truly seeing where this player’s ceiling is.

I've been reading this over and over that his time on ice was cut after they got Staal but it's some more BS.

This is his TOI/GP before Staal's acquisition: 14:49 TOI/GP

And this is his TOI/GP after Staal was acquired: 14:45 TOI/GP

 

[OnTheRun]

I mean did KK not play most of his TOI with our most offensive catalyst this year?

He didn't.

Can you share other players in similar situations so I can compare (not sarcasm) genuinely curious

Proposed situation didn't happen, no one can share a comparable to a non-existent situation.