Confirmed with Link: [PHI/SJS] Justin Braun acquired for 2019 2nd (#41) and 2020 3rd Part II

[CanadianFlyer88]

If Robert Hagg gets traded, should another fanbase have to watch him play a game first to say he sucks or is it OK to say he’s probably not that good beforehand?

It’s not OK to just casually say we can healthy scratch him if he plays poorly considering that the package given up to acquire him was pretty hefty and in retrospect could have returned a better player (not to mention these things most times aren’t mutually exclusive).

Braun will inevitably be tied to the assets given up to acquire him, but that should have no bearing on him getting scratched if he deserves it.

I am skeptical that most of this board has seen enough of Braun to adequately meet their own expectations of him. I happen to have seen him quite a bit in the last two seasons by watching more Sharks games than most other western teams (Vegas and Dallas may be the only two teams in the west I watched more of in that span). Even though I am positive about Braun (not what it cost to get him), I think it does make more sense to wait to see how he fits in to the team.

People like @Striiker ( ) have already decided that this is a terrible move. The return will always be a negative, but Braun is the type of player that fits well with a puck moving defenseman. I have said it before, but I liken him more to Gudas than the slop he seems to be compared to since the trade.

If the Flyers kept Gudas and moved the picks for Niskanen, I think the Flyers would have been in a similar spot. Given how everything has played out, I'd rather Braun in the six D than Hagg or Morin to start the season.

 

[Striiker]

I don’t get the notion about making ourselves feel better about the picks, simply because the Flyers traded down.

Those two are not in any way related.

Whatevs. Hopefully he plays well. **** Tuesday’s.

Yeah, it's illogical but just a weak attempt to defend the trade.

Like if an electronics store has a TV stolen and then sells a TV they didn't break even... they're still out the cost of the one that disappeared.

 

[flyersfan187]

The comparison is about last years play, not overall careers.

Which means that Braun can still be a good player for us. If he isn't you scratch him and say that the trade was bad for the Flyers. If he is solid for us then the trade was a win-win. I will reserve my judgment on this one for after the season begins.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

I don’t get the notion about making ourselves feel better about the picks, simply because the Flyers traded down.

Those two are not in any way related.

Whatevs. Hopefully he plays well. **** Tuesday’s.

They probably are related, though.

Impossible to say without getting Fletch to confirm, but they probably don't feel the need to trade down and acquire a pick in the 40's if they had their original 2nd.

**This is by no means justifying the price for Braun.

 

[Striiker]

Braun will inevitably be tied to the assets given up to acquire him, but that should have no bearing on him getting scratched if he deserves it.

I am skeptical that most of this board has seen enough of Braun to adequately meet their own expectations of him. I happen to have seen him quite a bit in the last two seasons by watching more Sharks games than most other western teams (Vegas and Dallas may be the only two teams in the west I watched more of in that span). Even though I am positive about Braun (not what it cost to get him), I think it does make more sense to wait to see how he fits in to the team.

People like @Striiker ( )have already decided that this is a terrible move. The return will always be a negative, but Braun is the type of player that fits well with a puck moving defenseman. I have said it before, but I liken him more to Gudas than the slop he seems to be compared to since the trade.

If the Flyers kept Gudas and moved the picks for Niskanen, I think the Flyers would have been in a similar spot. Given how everything has played out, I'd rather Braun in the six D than Hagg or Morin to start the season.

Well yeah, it was a terrible move based on what was known at the time of the trade. That much won't change with hindsight or anything that comes later.

However, what remains to be seen is how he ends up playing, which is why I haven't said it's a guarantee that he'll be bad. I'm only saying "what if". It's possible, if unlikely, that he can be a positive asset and actually help out. Nobody can know for sure so nobody can say for sure at this point.

It's two different topics that are being mixed up. Evaluating the trade itself vs evaluating the results.

 

[Striiker]

Which means that Braun can still be a good player for us. If he isn't you scratch him and say that the trade was bad for the Flyers. If he is solid for us then the trade was a win-win. I will reserve my judgment on this one for after the season begins.

Except we're not the ones in control, so if he's trash he might continue to play. We don't have that safety net for if his play dips.

And yeah, he could... but a lot of things could happen... it's about what's likely to happen and that aint it. Couturier could suck and play like a 3C... but are we going to build our roster around the mere possibility of that happening?

 

[Starat327]

Except we're not the ones in control, so if he's trash he might continue to play. We don't have that safety net for if his play dips.

And yeah, he could... but a lot of things could happen... it's about what's likely to happen and that aint it. Couturier could suck and play like a 3C... but are we going to build our roster around the mere possibility of that happening?

Oh man, you missed a juicy nugget I think.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Its gotta be a slow summer when we are 2/3 thru the 2nd thread on this trade.

 

[flyersfan187]

Except we're not the ones in control, so if he's trash he might continue to play. We don't have that safety net for if his play dips.

And yeah, he could... but a lot of things could happen... it's about what's likely to happen and that aint it. Couturier could suck and play like a 3C... but are we going to build our roster around the mere possibility of that happening?

If he is trash there is still Morin sitting there to come in. I don't understand what you mean about building a roster around Braun possibly being trash if that is what you are aiming at? Everyone knows Couts won't suck. I honestly think you don't like having Braun on the team because it helps keep Ghost on the left side and not on the right side with either Provy or Sanheim. This is potentially the best d group the Flyers have put together in a long time and they should all be playing close to equal time each game.

 

[Striiker]

If he is trash there is still Morin sitting there to come in. I don't understand what you mean about building a roster around Braun possibly being trash if that is what you are aiming at? Everyone knows Couts won't suck. I honestly think you don't like having Braun on the team because it helps keep Ghost on the left side and not on the right side with either Provy or Sanheim. This is potentially the best d group the Flyers have put together in a long time and they should all be playing close to equal time each game.

1) like I said we have no guarantee that he’ll be replaced if he sucks

2) were building a team around the assumption that Braun will be good, which is different from our most recent example of his play. It’s like building a team based on the assumption that Couts will be bad. Neither are safe bets because it’s the opposite of each players previous seasons

3) yes I dislike that Braun is likely stealing a top 4 spot from Ghost because I want the team to have the best possible chance to win and this hurts that. Ghost > Braun, so Ghost should play more than Braun. Simple.

 

[deadhead]

This offseason has been one bout of hyperbole after another:

Oh my God, we overpaid for Hayes, uh, it's the same overpay for Nelson, Lee, Zuc, etc. The cost of doing business with UFAs.
Should have been 6x6 for a 27 year old center who averages 36 ES points, is a two way forward, can play PP and PK.

Oh my God, we bought out AMac (which everyone wanted) and Schlemko and lost $2M in cap room next year (but saved a couple million this year). A disaster, kept us from lowballing Sanheim (whose agent had no intention of accepting a low ball).

Oh my God, we traded Gudas for Niskanen and used up the savings from buying out AMac. Niskanen is a clear upgrade from Gudas, is only on a two year deal, and will solidify the defense corp.

Oh my God, we traded #41 and a 2020 3rd (probably #80+) for Braun, an overpay that will cripple our future! Braun is a clear upgrade from Hagg and AMac, and buys a year for Myers to adjust to the NHL and to find out if Morin can play.

In the end we've added quality depth to the forward group and two experienced veteran RHDs to hold the hands of the young defensemen, especially in the playoffs - and that's the real reason for these deals. Other than Giroux (69 games), JVR (59), Voracek (34) and Couts (24), what Flyers have significant PO experience?
Braun (84g), Niskanen (125g), Hayes (26g).
Ghost (12), Laughton (9), Provorov (6), TK (6), Patrick (6), Sanheim (4), Lindblom (4)

 

[flyersfan187]

1) like I said we have no guarantee that he’ll be replaced if he sucks

2) were building a team around the assumption that Braun will be good, which is different from our most recent example of his play. It’s like building a team based on the assumption that Couts will be bad. Neither are safe bets because it’s the opposite of each players previous seasons

3) yes I dislike that Braun is likely stealing a top 4 spot from Ghost because I want the team to have the best possible chance to win and this hurts that. Ghost > Braun, so Ghost should play more than Braun. Simple.

If he sucks and he isn't replaced that is on AV and you can say that about many players that you acquire or bring up from the AHL.

I don't see us building a team around Braun. He was added for vet depth at the position and to help the PK.

I think our three defensive pairs will all be playing close to the same amount of minutes anyway depending on the game situation. Ghost will play less on even strength but will make up for it with PP time and the opposite will happen with Braun. I'd even like to see Ghost play the full 2 minute pp but I want Sanheim to get more experience there.

 

[Striiker]

If he sucks and he isn't replaced that is on AV and you can say that about many players that you acquire or bring up from the AHL.

I don't see us building a team around Braun. He was added for vet depth at the position and to help the PK.

I think our three defensive pairs will all be playing close to the same amount of minutes anyway depending on the game situation. Ghost will play less on even strength but will make up for it with PP time and the opposite will happen with Braun. I'd even like to see Ghost play the full 2 minute pp but I want Sanheim to get more experience there.

Around the assumption that Braun will be good, not around Braun as if he's the franchise player.

And Ghost playing less at 5v5 is unacceptable. You play your best players as much as you can, same as how Giroux and Couturier lead the forwards in 5v5 icetime and total icetime. They can play Ghost a lot at both.

 

[deadhead]

Sheltering Ghost is the best strategy, he's injury prone, that's a FACT: ACL, serious hip injury, knee injury that hampered him last year, you want to play him 22-23 minutes a night and see if he can last 100 games (because the goal is to get to at least the 2nd rd of the playoffs)? He's 5'10 185, and lacks the great speed and elusiveness of someone like EK, he will take his share of hits.

You limit Ghost at ES and use him 3-4 minutes a night on the PP, where he's far more valuable.
You use Braun at ES and the PK, and primarily D-zone starts, whereas Ghost should get primarily O-zone starts.

This is how a smart coach maximizes the value of his players, ration their minutes by putting them in the best positions for them to succeed.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Braun will inevitably be tied to the assets given up to acquire him, but that should have no bearing on him getting scratched if he deserves it.

It shouldn't but we've seen time and time again GMs (across all sports) can't separate the two things. Like in a vacuum, Braun should not be playing ahead of Gostisbehere or Sanheim at ES, but we know that that is not the plan based on what the team gave up. So instead of playing his way into a top 4 role, he has to play his way out of it, and so on and so forth. He's not going to go from top 4 to HS. There's a trickledown effect.

I am skeptical that most of this board has seen enough of Braun to adequately meet their own expectations of him. I happen to have seen him quite a bit in the last two seasons by watching more Sharks games than most other western teams (Vegas and Dallas may be the only two teams in the west I watched more of in that span). Even though I am positive about Braun (not what it cost to get him), I think it does make more sense to wait to see how he fits in to the team.

People like @Striiker ( ) have already decided that this is a terrible move. The return will always be a negative, but Braun is the type of player that fits well with a puck moving defenseman. I have said it before, but I liken him more to Gudas than the slop he seems to be compared to since the trade.

I think the wait and see approach would have more merit if he wasn't outside of his prime years and he wasn't showing strong signs of decline and if he didn't possess a skillset that historically doesn't age gracefully. It's not like we haven't seen similar scenarios previously blow up. A lot of things have to go right and you're already counting on guy like Niskanen to rebound from a similar situation (although I'm a little more optimistic there).

f the Flyers kept Gudas and moved the picks for Niskanen, I think the Flyers would have been in a similar spot. Given how everything has played out, I'd rather Braun in the six D than Hagg or Morin to start the season.

Disagree. Gudas is a much better player and there's no projection needed. We know what he is capable of on this team. In your scenario, Hagg and Morin are still extras.

 

[flyersfan187]

Around the assumption that Braun will be good, not around Braun as if he's the franchise player.

And Ghost playing less at 5v5 is unacceptable. You play your best players as much as you can, same as how Giroux and Couturier lead the forwards in 5v5 icetime and total icetime. They can play Ghost a lot at both.

Still you aren't building around Braun to where you can't change anything if he plays poorly.

 

[freakydallas13]

Just opening this thread is mentally exhausting.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

This offseason has been one bout of hyperbole after another:

Oh my God, we overpaid for Hayes, uh, it's the same overpay for Nelson, Lee, Zuc, etc. The cost of doing business with UFAs.
Should have been 6x6 for a 27 year old center who averages 36 ES points, is a two way forward, can play PP and PK.

Oh my God, we bought out AMac (which everyone wanted) and Schlemko and lost $2M in cap room next year (but saved a couple million this year). A disaster, kept us from lowballing Sanheim (whose agent had no intention of accepting a low ball).

Oh my God, we traded Gudas for Niskanen and used up the savings from buying out AMac. Niskanen is a clear upgrade from Gudas, is only on a two year deal, and will solidify the defense corp.

Oh my God, we traded #41 and a 2020 3rd (probably #80+) for Braun, an overpay that will cripple our future! Braun is a clear upgrade from Hagg and AMac, and buys a year for Myers to adjust to the NHL and to find out if Morin can play.

In the end we've added quality depth to the forward group and two experienced veteran RHDs to hold the hands of the young defensemen, especially in the playoffs - and that's the real reason for these deals. Other than Giroux (69 games), JVR (59), Voracek (34) and Couts (24), what Flyers have significant PO experience?
Braun (84g), Niskanen (125g), Hayes (26g).
Ghost (12), Laughton (9), Provorov (6), TK (6), Patrick (6), Sanheim (4), Lindblom (4)

As I’ve said, many fans care much more about their individual heroes than the team.

And anything that threatens their heroes’ stats & infallible image will be reflexively attacked.

IMO, the hyperbole we’ve seen this offseason is grounded mostly in fans’ defensiveness over Ghost, Patrick, & Hextall, who are huge fan favorites having their roles diminished, threatened, or eliminated.

 

[flyersfan187]

As I’ve said, many fans care much more about their individual heroes than the team.

And anything that threatens their heroes’ stats & infallible image will be reflexively attacked.

IMO, the hyperbole we’ve seen this offseason is grounded mostly in fans’ defensiveness over Ghost, Patrick, & Hextall, who are huge fan favorites having their roles diminished, threatened, or eliminated.

What about Captain and Bunny? I could players running from certain people on this board but not with Captain and Bunny. Those two would run towards each other in a fuzzy embrace

 

[FlyerNutter]

This offseason has been one bout of hyperbole after another:

Oh my God, we overpaid for Hayes, uh, it's the same overpay for Nelson, Lee, Zuc, etc. The cost of doing business with UFAs.
Should have been 6x6 for a 27 year old center who averages 36 ES points, is a two way forward, can play PP and PK.

Oh my God, we bought out AMac (which everyone wanted) and Schlemko and lost $2M in cap room next year (but saved a couple million this year). A disaster, kept us from lowballing Sanheim (whose agent had no intention of accepting a low ball).

Oh my God, we traded Gudas for Niskanen and used up the savings from buying out AMac. Niskanen is a clear upgrade from Gudas, is only on a two year deal, and will solidify the defense corp.

Oh my God, we traded #41 and a 2020 3rd (probably #80+) for Braun, an overpay that will cripple our future! Braun is a clear upgrade from Hagg and AMac, and buys a year for Myers to adjust to the NHL and to find out if Morin can play.

In the end we've added quality depth to the forward group and two experienced veteran RHDs to hold the hands of the young defensemen, especially in the playoffs - and that's the real reason for these deals. Other than Giroux (69 games), JVR (59), Voracek (34) and Couts (24), what Flyers have significant PO experience?
Braun (84g), Niskanen (125g), Hayes (26g).
Ghost (12), Laughton (9), Provorov (6), TK (6), Patrick (6), Sanheim (4), Lindblom (4)

I think the off season more than anything, again showed us that diving into slightly above average mediocrity is always a mistake. These mid tier guys always get overpaid by desperate GM’s.

Big deals are always handed out to players who will never live up to them.

FA, for a smart GM is a place to more often than naught - stay the f*** away from.

 

[Striiker]

Some are just mad Ghost is still here

 

[Starat327]

Some are just mad Ghost is still here

Mostly, I'm mad you're still here.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Hayes (26g)

A few more than that.

 

[Striiker]

Mostly, I'm mad you're still here.

Me too.

 

[deadhead]

I think the off season more than anything, again showed us that diving into slightly above average mediocrity is always a mistake. These mid tier guys always get overpaid by desperate GM’s.

Big deals are always handed out to players who will never live up to them.

FA, for a smart GM is a place to more often than naught - stay the **** away from.

Fletcher had to please two masters, Scott/Holmgren, who want to win now, and AV, who I'm sure had a list of demands when he took the job, and probably gave Fletcher a lot of feedback about the kind of players he needed (he helped lobby Hayes, for example).

The only significant assets that Fletcher sacrificed were #41, some-short term cap room, and the overpay on Hayes (he still has significant value as a marginal top six/solid top nine two way forward).

While he subtracted net value, it was from an organization with surplus value.

In return, not only are the Flyers more competitive this season, but both the NHL and AHL teams are better environments for player development, which may increase the value of their remaining prospects.