Prospect Info: Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Juniors, Int'l, etc. [Pt. 3, March 2015]
- Thread starter MiamiScreamingEagles
- Start date
- Status
flyershockey
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2006
- 13,466
- 6,569
Fair enough. I've never been all that high on Hagg, but I do think he'll make an impact as a 4-5-6 guy at some point.
Yeah.. I never said any of that. In fact, I kind of said the opposite. But if Hagg isn't getting any AHL minutes (even if just as a call-up) after two full AHL seasons, then yeah, he would be developing slower than expected. Especially when you consider that he was the most ready to handle pro minutes coming into this year.
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
I'll be satisfied if he turns out to be a solid bottom pairing guy. I really don't have high expectations for him either.
I just think he's still got ways to go to even get there. He's gonna need to tighten up defensively so he can carve out a shutdown role as I don't think the offense will be there for him at the next level nor do I think he sees a PP on a consistent basis.
I'm trying to get the point across that you can't tell much of anything from someone's first NA Pro season. Especially defenders. At best you can say he meant, exceeded, or did not reach organizational expectation. Information that we are not privy to. Even coaching staff and management don't really have much to go on at the start of this season. 10 games wasn't enough to get anything of substance.
Now the staff can sit him down and give him specific things to work on. I shutter to think there are people who thought he would walk into his first pro season and dominate, playing all situations and top pair minutes. That just doesn't happen very often.
Hâgg obviously needs to improve next year but so does every player. That's not a trait specific to him or any other player his age.
If he has a similar season next year that's fine. All it means is that he's a normal defender and probably nothing special. Then again, it's hard to say at 21 what someone will look like 4-5 years from now. So long as he trends well or doesn't regress then all is good.
What he will be if anything at the NHL level is a conversation to be had when he's 23-24. Not now. He disn't have the pedigree of an Ekblad or the Crosby of defense and even then you're just taking your best guess as to what you've got.
Now the staff can sit him down and give him specific things to work on. I shutter to think there are people who thought he would walk into his first pro season and dominate, playing all situations and top pair minutes. That just doesn't happen very often.
Hâgg obviously needs to improve next year but so does every player. That's not a trait specific to him or any other player his age.
If he has a similar season next year that's fine. All it means is that he's a normal defender and probably nothing special. Then again, it's hard to say at 21 what someone will look like 4-5 years from now. So long as he trends well or doesn't regress then all is good.
What he will be if anything at the NHL level is a conversation to be had when he's 23-24. Not now. He disn't have the pedigree of an Ekblad or the Crosby of defense and even then you're just taking your best guess as to what you've got.
Last edited:
FLYguy3911
Sanheim Lover
- Oct 19, 2006
- 53,163
- 86,550
If Morin is in the AHL 2-3 years from now, we are in trouble. I don't think Sanheim spends anytime there, but we shall see.
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
I think people really underestimate the learning curve for defensemen. They just assume everybody is Chara when in reality most of the top defensemen in today's game really didn't take long to establish themselves as ones.
You pretty much have a good idea of what you got in a guy at 22-24 years old in most cases.
flyershockey
Registered User
- Oct 10, 2006
- 13,466
- 6,569
Yeah, most first rounders don't spend even a full season in the AHL. At least not the ones that turn into difference makers at the NHL level.
This. The likes of Doughty, Chara, et all had everything to be NHL studs from the get go. The fact that the transition was basically immediate in the above cases was a pleasant and unexpected surprise to many.
Hägg isn't a finished product that just needs time to "get up to speed". Even if that was the case you are still looking at 2-3 years of seasoning on average. As such you're looking at 5-6 years before you know anything definitive.
You saw fans say the same crap about Couturier's offensive development and some still do. He's a long way off from 25 and polished, and Hägg the same boat. one, even two or three seasons does not a player make. It's about process and you can't get much out of that from 1 season.
Holy hell, you guys are on the prospects. I come in to post my thoughts on yesterday's game an I'm already 3 pages behind.
1) Re: Sanheim
He's playing with a tonne of confidence right now, offensively and defensively. Had a couple of great shut-down poke-checks on Reinhart and Philp, great containment in the defensive zone. Offensively, he's still holding onto the puck a bit longer than I'd like, but is usually making good plays. A lot of chipping in down the boards for the cycle, but he's getting open on the point and looking for the shot when it's there. Plus, he's not afraid to push down when the option arises and join the cycle or go to the net. He was forechecking at least twice, and yet he's still the first guy back. Every time he does that he reminds me of TJ Brodie - excellent skating gives him the ability to jump up but still get back. Since that howitzer goal at the end of the regular season, he looks for the slapshot too much - he's got a great wrist shot and should stick to that.
2) Re: Fazleev
Has figured out how to use his speed. He's always had silky hands but lately he's combining it with speed and body position to protect the puck well and make things happen through the neutral zone. The Hitmen have settled out their lines (finally) and he's consistently playing with Peterson and [Taylor] Sanheim - which is somehow working. His linemates cycle but then he jumps in and makes a play to the defencemen instead of cycling it and gave the ICE all sorts of transitional issues. He's working really well on the forecheck, both physically and using speed/stick-checks to win puck battles. Great anticipation as well, intercepting passes when one of his linemates is first guy in. On the powerplay, great vision for the cross-ice pass, and again, finally using his body to protect the puck instead of stick-handling in a phonebooth.
3) Re: Rankin
His second hat-trick in the series gives him 7 goals and 3 assists in 7 games, good for third in WHL scoring (behind Tambellini's 15 points and Luke Philp's 12). 7 goals ties the Hitmen franchise record for goals in a single playoff series - with Brad Moran, Brandon Kozun, and Adam Tambellini (shows you how much scoring was being done in this series). He also had an excellent year, putting up 79 points in 72 games and finishing 20th in league scoring. In addition to the two hat-tricks in this series, he put up back-to-back hat-tricks at the start of December to be named the CHL player of the week.
However, there's a reason he's an overager in the WHL, like there is every 20 year old still playing Junior hockey. Helgesen will never go anywhere - he's a greasy grinder that switched from defence to forward in his draft year. Tambellini switched from college hockey to the CHL late in his 19 year old year. Rankin is a gritty forward that will end up in Europe, but just has a poor combination of size and skill that leaves him a bit short. He's a small guy and while he has no fear, he gets beat up quite a bit. Big defenders run him over and he takes a lot of sticks to the face. His speed is good for the WHL but it isn't enough to balance his lack of size at the next level. His shot is good but only at this level. Look at a guy like Brandon Kozun - just now making the [piss-poor] Maple Leafs - he's got a better shot, better speed, and better ability to dodge hits than Rankin and he's just barely making the NHL. Next comparable to Rankin to come through the Hitmen system was Cody Sylvester - slower, more physical version of Kozun - and he's in the ECHL last I checked. I won't be surprised to see him get some invites to NHL training camps in the fall, but he's not going to make the big leagues.
4) Re: Medicine Hat Tigers
This is a good hockey team. They run a similar set-up to the Hitmen, two scoring lines, a pest line, and a fourth line that never sees the ice. Trevor Cox and Cole Sanford are a legitimate scoring threat every time they're on the ice, and Dryden Hunt and Steven Owre make a solid second line. Chad Labelle is the a phenomenal pest/checker/dick that every Hitmen fan has hated for years now.
On the defensive side, they have a solid top 4 in OAs Tyler Lewington and Kyle Becker, along with Ty Stanton and Tommy Vannelli. Their third overager is goaltender Marek Langhammer, the last import goalie in the WHL (it was made a rule a few years ago that you couldn't have an import player that was a goaltender because the Canadian kids weren't getting a chance to play with all the Europeans taking #1 spots). He was absolutely fantastic in the Red Deer series and will be a much tougher goalie to beat than Wyatt Hoflin.
Scoring from the Hitmen will definitely go down. I'm hoping they don't change their gameplan too much going into this series to focus on defense at the expense of offense, but they will definitely need to be tighter defensively.
In terms of draft-eligible guys to watch on Medicine Hat.... there are none. Matt Bradley is probably their top draft-eligible guy and he doesn't make my top-120 list. Their backup goalie is draft-eligible and solid, but you're not going to see him in this series. They do have a 16 year old, David Quenneville that is 2016 eligible and will likely be a top-60 pick then.
I think that covers everything.
1) Re: Sanheim
He's playing with a tonne of confidence right now, offensively and defensively. Had a couple of great shut-down poke-checks on Reinhart and Philp, great containment in the defensive zone. Offensively, he's still holding onto the puck a bit longer than I'd like, but is usually making good plays. A lot of chipping in down the boards for the cycle, but he's getting open on the point and looking for the shot when it's there. Plus, he's not afraid to push down when the option arises and join the cycle or go to the net. He was forechecking at least twice, and yet he's still the first guy back. Every time he does that he reminds me of TJ Brodie - excellent skating gives him the ability to jump up but still get back. Since that howitzer goal at the end of the regular season, he looks for the slapshot too much - he's got a great wrist shot and should stick to that.
2) Re: Fazleev
Has figured out how to use his speed. He's always had silky hands but lately he's combining it with speed and body position to protect the puck well and make things happen through the neutral zone. The Hitmen have settled out their lines (finally) and he's consistently playing with Peterson and [Taylor] Sanheim - which is somehow working. His linemates cycle but then he jumps in and makes a play to the defencemen instead of cycling it and gave the ICE all sorts of transitional issues. He's working really well on the forecheck, both physically and using speed/stick-checks to win puck battles. Great anticipation as well, intercepting passes when one of his linemates is first guy in. On the powerplay, great vision for the cross-ice pass, and again, finally using his body to protect the puck instead of stick-handling in a phonebooth.
3) Re: Rankin
His second hat-trick in the series gives him 7 goals and 3 assists in 7 games, good for third in WHL scoring (behind Tambellini's 15 points and Luke Philp's 12). 7 goals ties the Hitmen franchise record for goals in a single playoff series - with Brad Moran, Brandon Kozun, and Adam Tambellini (shows you how much scoring was being done in this series). He also had an excellent year, putting up 79 points in 72 games and finishing 20th in league scoring. In addition to the two hat-tricks in this series, he put up back-to-back hat-tricks at the start of December to be named the CHL player of the week.
However, there's a reason he's an overager in the WHL, like there is every 20 year old still playing Junior hockey. Helgesen will never go anywhere - he's a greasy grinder that switched from defence to forward in his draft year. Tambellini switched from college hockey to the CHL late in his 19 year old year. Rankin is a gritty forward that will end up in Europe, but just has a poor combination of size and skill that leaves him a bit short. He's a small guy and while he has no fear, he gets beat up quite a bit. Big defenders run him over and he takes a lot of sticks to the face. His speed is good for the WHL but it isn't enough to balance his lack of size at the next level. His shot is good but only at this level. Look at a guy like Brandon Kozun - just now making the [piss-poor] Maple Leafs - he's got a better shot, better speed, and better ability to dodge hits than Rankin and he's just barely making the NHL. Next comparable to Rankin to come through the Hitmen system was Cody Sylvester - slower, more physical version of Kozun - and he's in the ECHL last I checked. I won't be surprised to see him get some invites to NHL training camps in the fall, but he's not going to make the big leagues.
4) Re: Medicine Hat Tigers
This is a good hockey team. They run a similar set-up to the Hitmen, two scoring lines, a pest line, and a fourth line that never sees the ice. Trevor Cox and Cole Sanford are a legitimate scoring threat every time they're on the ice, and Dryden Hunt and Steven Owre make a solid second line. Chad Labelle is the a phenomenal pest/checker/dick that every Hitmen fan has hated for years now.
On the defensive side, they have a solid top 4 in OAs Tyler Lewington and Kyle Becker, along with Ty Stanton and Tommy Vannelli. Their third overager is goaltender Marek Langhammer, the last import goalie in the WHL (it was made a rule a few years ago that you couldn't have an import player that was a goaltender because the Canadian kids weren't getting a chance to play with all the Europeans taking #1 spots). He was absolutely fantastic in the Red Deer series and will be a much tougher goalie to beat than Wyatt Hoflin.
Scoring from the Hitmen will definitely go down. I'm hoping they don't change their gameplan too much going into this series to focus on defense at the expense of offense, but they will definitely need to be tighter defensively.
In terms of draft-eligible guys to watch on Medicine Hat.... there are none. Matt Bradley is probably their top draft-eligible guy and he doesn't make my top-120 list. Their backup goalie is draft-eligible and solid, but you're not going to see him in this series. They do have a 16 year old, David Quenneville that is 2016 eligible and will likely be a top-60 pick then.
I think that covers everything.
Last edited:
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
I think you're misunderstanding my post. Chara took a really long time to develop into the player he turned it to be. It was the most unique development path in league history. He was really good awful up until his later years with Ottawa & then with Boston where he truly became one of the best in the league. The odds of seeing something similar to that again is about the same odds of seeing another Lindros.
You basically have a good idea of what someone is going to turnout to be by ages 22-24 & you can piece together their development path by their skill sets & progression as you go along.
Ah I see. Still don't those players "have all the pieces" and just have to put it together? Hägg isn't that type of player. Even so, if 22 is the age on the low end we still have 2 years before we know anything and it's probably gonna be closer to 24.
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
Appleyard did an analysis where he broke down what ages top & middle pairing guys when they broke into the NHL as well as started to play at an impact level in the NHL. It's not an exact science & there are some outliers but it shows the learning curve for defensemen really isn't that steep. Guys make the NHL & make an impact earlier than earlier than conventional wisdom might lead you to believe.
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
I do not but he's posted it on different occassions so hopefully he has it saved.
GapToothedWonder
Registered User
Curufinwe
Registered User
- Feb 28, 2013
- 55,780
- 42,848
Not bad for a 19 year old on a team without Ghost and Alt for most of the season.
During tonight's game they mentioned that Manning said it was easier in a way to play at the NHL level because it's a lot more structured and less scrambly, and that the same will apply to Hagg.
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
Maybe as a spare defensemen. It's tough to really tell since the games are meaningless & he's getting sheltered minutes. The game where Streit & CC were out he looked pretty bad when they couldn't protect him.
That especially applies to Hagg, who has already been playing in pro (SHL) for 2-3 years.
I agree, and not just because he's been playing against men. The thing about him that stands out for me is that while physically he has all tools he plays a smart, disciplined game. That should translate very well to the NHL game.
Stizzle
Registered User
- Feb 3, 2012
- 13,209
- 23,193
Hagg said something similar at the WJC's this year compared to the AHL. He said AHL was much more structure and the WJC felt like guys were just skating all over.
Larry44
#FireTortsNOW
- Mar 1, 2002
- 11,963
- 7,299
There is lots of time for Hagg.
Hjalmarsson, parts of 2 seasons at 20 and 21 in the AHL after coming over from Sweden.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=83449
Voynov, parts of 5 seasons in the AHL, including up to age 22.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=96422&encode=TRUE
Chara: parts of 2 seasons in the AHL:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=28487
Look at the Rangers: http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0000482015.html
Only Staal played 0 AHL games. McDonagh played half a season. Boyle, Yandle, Klein and Girardi all played at least a year and half or a couple full years in the AHL.
There is no shame in developing players at their own pace, esp. D men. Some of them turn out pretty good with some seasoning.
Cyborg LeClair
Thank You Mr. Snider
Bad team and he's still young in his development. He has the tools to be a really good goalie, he just needs experience and coaching. He's gonna be another couple years, but he definitely has starter potential.
Cyborg LeClair
Thank You Mr. Snider
I heard them saying that and totally agree. Hagg is a very steady defender. He'd fit very well with other professionals playing a structured game. A lot of gaffes that happen while Hagg is on the ice are from teammates not being where they should be, which makes his job harder.
Again,he still needs seasoning,but I could see him not really lighting up the AHL and then coming to the Flyers and playing very well.
- Status
Ad
Upcoming events
-
-
GAME 7 - North Bay Battalion @ Oshawa Generals - Series tied 3-3Wagers: 2Staked: $850.00Event closes- Updated:
-
-
Series Winner Florida Panthers vs Boston BruinsWagers: 10Staked: $102,319.00Event closes- Updated:
-