Phantoms (AHL), Reading Royals (ECHL), NCAA, Jrs., Int'l, etc.

[wasup]

I don't know who has them at 20, but that seems crazy to me.

Lets go through this with a comparison to the Flyers (and i have the two systems close).

Hart gets the nod over Sorokin but not by much. Sorokin is a legit top 5 goalie prospect. Hart is our 2nd best goalie prospect.

Wahlstrom I have over Frost (flyers best forward)

Bellows and Farabee are really close, but I'll give a slight edge to Bellows.

Dobson i have over Myers

Morin I have over Wilde

Forward depth goes to the flyers easily (Allison, O'Brien, Lindblom, Ratcliffe) vs (Ho-Sang, Jenkins, Ishakov, Dal Colle)

Defensive depth goes to the Isles easily (Toews, Vande Sompel, Quennville, Aho) vs (Ginning, Friedman, Kalynuk, Hogberg).

Goalie depth Soderstrom and Skarek is a win over Lyon, Stolarz, etc...

So overall its close, I have to give it to the Isles though, slightly... the Dobson and Wahlstrom picks make a big difference. I had both as top 10 prospects pre-draft.

Bellows really flippin Bellows . He could not produce in College had to go back to juniors , then player with Cody Glass and still put up not great numbers , how the he- double L do you put him better than Farabee . He would struggle to make our top ten , have you actually watched him or you just going off past history . One dimensional player with attitude yikes
I have seen him play 25-30 times live since his Minnesota days heck he got benched for a few games in college for not wanting to play in his own end .

 

[Stizzle]

Also, no offense to this guy or any other person who ranks prospects for every team, but it's impossible to really have a grasp on each team. Following one team is hard enough. Take these guys opinions with a grain of salt.

 

[wasup]

Also, no offense to this guy or any other person who ranks prospects for every team, but it's impossible to really have a grasp on each team. Following one team is hard enough. Take these guys opinions with a grain of salt.

A-men to that

 

[FlyTimmo]

I keep seeing the Isles rank high on several lists. I understand them being top-10, but top-5 is a little much for me. Dobson looks like a stud, and Sorokin is a legit goalie prospect. But, honestly that were my praise ends.

I have plenty of concerns about Wahlstrom. Of course, he is still a great prospect and I'd love to have him, but I think I prefer Farabee right now.

Bellows really struggled in college and is getting boosted up by Cody Glass. There isn't a whole lot to love about a one-dimensional player with limited two-way skills, whose "one-dimension" can even be lackluster at times.

In limited viewings of Wilde during 16-17, I liked him. But, this season my opinion of him gradually got worse with every viewing. He has flashes of brilliance surrounded by plenty of mistakes. Low-IQ players w/ overrated tools aren't ever to high on my list. Hot-take here: I'd rather have Ginning.

Then what else do they really have? Some disappointing forwards (Dal Colle, JHS), a slightly above average defensive group, and good but, not great goalies.

 

[Magua]

I think I'd need to believe Sorokin would actually come over and play for the Islanders to consider him basically Hart's equal. In talent, sure. But that talent isn't being used in their organization. That's a really tough one.

Agree with some other points brought up, but if Ho-Sang is considered a prospect, shouldn't Sanheim be too? I already believe that the Flyers defensive depth prospects are better than the Islanders. But that would blow it wide open.

 

[LastWordArmy]

I think I'd need to believe Sorokin would actually come over and play for the Islanders to consider him basically Hart's equal. In talent, sure. But that talent isn't being used in their organization. That's a really tough one.

Agree with some other points brought up, but if Ho-Sang is considered a prospect, shouldn't Sanheim be too? I already believe that the Flyers defensive depth prospects are better than the Islanders. But that would blow it wide open.

Prospects are defined in our preambles... under 25 years old and less than 50 NHL games... so Ho-Sang qualifies but Sanheim does not. With Provorov, Sanheim, Hagg, not counting as prospects... I just don't see the Flyers group as being better than the Islanders in terms of depth. Yes if Sanheim did, I would put the Flyers ahead of the Islanders (I had the Flyers number 1 last year), but he doesn't according to our rules.

This is a bright line rule that we've had since we started this in 2012.

We need a rule that is objective and not subjective to ensure all teams are compared fairly.

 

[LastWordArmy]

A couple of you have compared Wahlstrom and Farabee. I have to say, I'm not alone in having Wahlstrom over Farabee. I have not seen one publication who had it the other way... whether that is McKenzie's list, or hockeyprospect.com, or mckeen's, or ISS.... I don't think there is much support outside of this board for Farabee being better than Wahlstrom but we will see.

 

[LastWordArmy]

As for Bellows

Is his shot fantastic? of course.

Is he a one-trick pony? I don't think so.

He's good on the forecheck. He's strong on the puck in the cycle game, and he is a smart player in picking the right pass to keep the puck moving, as well as finding open space without the puck. I think he has more skill than just one-dimension.

As for Ho-Sang... still think he has immense skill and is going to play a role in the Isles future. I don't think they are done with him.


As for Dal Colle... bust, yes, I agree..... I just had him as the fifth guy i named, since i had five flyers, but that was just to illustrate the gap in forwards. He's been garbage in two years of the AHL. I don't see anything there anymore.

 

[Magua]

Prospects are defined in our preambles... under 25 years old and less than 50 NHL games... so Ho-Sang qualifies but Sanheim does not. With Provorov, Sanheim, Hagg, not counting as prospects... I just don't see the Flyers group as being better than the Islanders in terms of depth. Yes if Sanheim did, I would put the Flyers ahead of the Islanders (I had the Flyers number 1 last year), but he doesn't according to our rules.

This is a bright line rule that we've had since we started this in 2012.

We need a rule that is objective and not subjective to ensure all teams are compared fairly.

Sanheim has 49 regular season games played. It’s odd to include a few playoff games, no? Playoff games aren’t counted for eligibility in the NHL.

If one rookie played 49 regular season games and another played 24 regular season games + 26 playoff games, the former would be a prospect by your definition but ineligible for the Calder the next season; the latter would NOT be a prospect but Calder eligible.

 

[FlyTimmo]

A couple of you have compared Wahlstrom and Farabee. I have to say, I'm not alone in having Wahlstrom over Farabee. I have not seen one publication who had it the other way... whether that is McKenzie's list, or hockeyprospect.com, or mckeen's, or ISS.... I don't think there is much support outside of this board for Farabee being better than Wahlstrom but we will see.

Many people are influenced easily by first impressions. While I don't agree, I wouldn't be shocked if plenty of people around here dropped Wahlstrom down a few pegs after his abysmal WJSS.

 

[LastWordArmy]

Sanheim has 49 regular season games played. It’s odd to include a few playoff games, no? Playoff games aren’t counted for eligibility in the NHL.

If one rookie played 49 regular season games and another played 24 regular season games + 26 playoff games, the former would be a prospect by your definition but ineligible for the Calder the next season; the latter would NOT be a prospect but Calder eligible.

Our rule has always included playoff games.

Why? Cause playing in a playoff game is at least as valuable (and arguably more valuable) experience wise than playing a regular season game.

And yes, we know the NHL sees things differently for calder eligibility... but why would we use the calder rules, when we are using 50 games, not the calder standards anyway?

 

[LastWordArmy]

Many people are influenced easily by first impressions. While I don't agree, I wouldn't be shocked if plenty of people around here dropped Wahlstrom down a few pegs after his abysmal WJSS.

I agree.

Personally I never look at those summer tournaments (exception Hlinka cause sometimes its my first exposure to overseas players). Some of those overseas players may be difficult to see again before the five nations or the under 18. But the WJSS... nope, don't pay much attention to that. Same with development camps.

Summer hockey has to be taken with a grain of salt cause there is so much happening behind the scenes that are unknown. What is the player's off-season training regime and when are they scheduled to peak with it? Are they worn down or tired? Are others more ready to go? Everyone is different here. Plus its a small sample size and the players may not have chemistry playing together. I always say people overrate the WJC, and there are a number of reasons not to overrate that tourney cause its too small a sample. The summer stuff is even worse.

 

[Stizzle]

As for Ho-Sang... still think he has immense skill and is going to play a role in the Isles future. I don't think they are done with him.

I'm not sure why you're so confident about this. He was getting healthy scratched some in the AHL last year. Lou is in charge now. I have to imagine the noose is only going to tighten from here on out.

In any event, it really doesn't change the fact that our forward group trounces there group. Even if you do think Wahlstrom and Bellows are somewhat better than Frost and Farabee.

I will also say again that, imo, you misevaluated both teams defenses.

 

[LastWordArmy]

The big thing that gives the Isles the edge is that when you are comparing the groups, the top of the group is more important than the depth though.

I also strongly disagree with the criticism of the Isles d being based on size. The size of D is becoming less important, just look at all the sub 6-foot defencemen drafted in the top 2 rounds in both 2017 and 2018. Moving the puck is critical, and the isles group does that really well.

 

[LastWordArmy]

That said, if you ask me who will be the better team in 5 years... I would say Philly, cause at that point we are adding Beauvillier and Barzal and Pulock on the Isles side... but Patrick and Provorov and Sanheim and Gostisbehere and Hagg and Konecny on the Flyers side.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Yeah Hagg swings the needle in the Flyers favor imo.

 

[pit]

Yeah Hagg swings the needle in the Flyers favor imo.

 

[Stizzle]

The big thing that gives the Isles the edge is that when you are comparing the groups, the top of the group is more important than the depth though.

I also strongly disagree with the criticism of the Isles d being based on size. The size of D is becoming less important, just look at all the sub 6-foot defencemen drafted in the top 2 rounds in both 2017 and 2018. Moving the puck is critical, and the isles group does that really well.

If you think the top of there group is so far superior to the top of ours, so be it. I'm not going to change your mind, but I disagree.

As for the defense. It's not just size. But yeah that is a factor. Quenneville is 5'8 for god's sake. How many 5'8 defensemen play in the league? You also are high on MVS. I asked before with no answer. I'll ask again. Didn't they play MSV at forward a bunch? And honestly, I question how familiar you are with our defensemen.

 

[Stizzle]

If you were wondering why the BSH Top 25 Under 25 is so terrible. Here is a list from one of there most vocal contributors.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

If you were wondering why the BSH Top 25 Under 25 is so terrible. Here is a list from one of there most vocal contributors.

That list aside (5 is not unreasonable), if there's one thing the lists that I saw are telling me it's that expectations for Carter Hart are out of control. It's impossible to be anything but impressed with what he's done, but I've seen him at 3 over Konecny on at least one list and that's from one of two voters I know for sure is reasonable and watches prospects. He's still a Goalie...

 

[GapToothedWonder]

That list aside (5 is not unreasonable), if there's one thing the lists that I saw are telling me it's that expectations for Carter Hart are out of control. It's impossible to be anything but impressed with what he's done, but I've seen him at 3 over Konecny on at least one list and that's from one of two voters I know for sure is reasonable and watches prospects. He's still a Goalie...

I mean, junior stats aren't everything but you would be hard pressed to find a prospect with better stats on a comparable team. And I mean through out the last like 20 years

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I mean, junior stats aren't everything but you would be hard pressed to find a prospect with better stats on a comparable team. And I mean through out the last like 20 years

Right, which makes him an elite Goalie prospect and maybe the best currently in the world. If you had him as your #1 Prospect in the org outside of the NHL, I'm not going to argue.

I don't see how you can ignore the positional volatility to the level required to put him above high-end prospects in Konecny and Sanheim who are already fulfilling their promise at the NHL level though. I'm not averse to risk, but we still have to acknowledge it exists.

 

[Striiker]

Mixing NHL players and prospects on that list is so dumb...

 

[LastWordArmy]

If you think the top of there group is so far superior to the top of ours, so be it. I'm not going to change your mind, but I disagree.

As for the defense. It's not just size. But yeah that is a factor. Quenneville is 5'8 for god's sake. How many 5'8 defensemen play in the league? You also are high on MVS. I asked before with no answer. I'll ask again. Didn't they play MSV at forward a bunch? And honestly, I question how familiar you are with our defensemen.

MSV was an AHL All-Star, in my viewings (about 6 or 7 games last year), I never saw him used at forward but its possible he did. He used to be a forward who was converted to defence just before he went to the OHL. From what I saw, he needs to continue to work on his defensive game and isn't NHL ready yet, but he's got skills.

As for the Flyers defence, Yes its almost all video (on demand mostly) .... I've seen a lot of both Myers and Morin over the years. Ginning has played 2 years at the world U18, i also saw a couple of his games in the SHL, but his ice time was a bit limited there. Hogberg, I saw him at the Under-17 when he played there, and some SHL and WJC games this year. I've seen Kalynuk and Freidman as well.

People can question how much hockey a person watches, and I agree, I don't watch a normal amount. Hockey is almost always on my TV, via my computer signed up to various on demand services. I would think the amount of detail in each of the top 10 prospects articles, and the draft preview articles, speaks for itself though.

 

[Rebels57]

I don't know who has them at 20, but that seems crazy to me.

Lets go through this with a comparison to the Flyers (and i have the two systems close).

Hart gets the nod over Sorokin but not by much. Sorokin is a legit top 5 goalie prospect. Hart is our 2nd best goalie prospect.

Wahlstrom I have over Frost (flyers best forward)

Bellows and Farabee are really close, but I'll give a slight edge to Bellows.

Dobson i have over Myers

Morin I have over Wilde

Forward depth goes to the flyers easily (Allison, O'Brien, Lindblom, Ratcliffe) vs (Ho-Sang, Jenkins, Ishakov, Dal Colle)

Defensive depth goes to the Isles easily (Toews, Vande Sompel, Quennville, Aho) vs (Ginning, Friedman, Kalynuk, Hogberg).

Goalie depth Soderstrom and Skarek is a win over Lyon, Stolarz, etc...

So overall its close, I have to give it to the Isles though, slightly... the Dobson and Wahlstrom picks make a big difference. I had both as top 10 prospects pre-draft.

You missed Felix Sandstrom and Kirill Ustimenko in Flyers goalie depth. They tip the scales in the Flyers favor in goalie depth. Also think Farabee will surpass Bellows. Thanks for sharing your opinion though!