Phaneuf vs Johnson

[Epsilon]

Warrener &Volcnenkov are not REALLY physical, I mean they are not intimidated by physical play and dish out hits but they are not really out there to hurt people.

Volchenkov is one of the most devastating hitters in the NHL today. He's gone out there and absolutely leveled guys on multiple occasions. There are at most 5 guys on the league who are better open-ice hitters than Volchenkov, if that.

 

[markov`]

Stevens, Kasparaitis, Witt and Foote are all getting old, Stevens probably has 1-2 year at max.

Warrener & Volcnenkov are not REALLY physical, I mean they are not intimidated by physical play and dish out hits but they are not really out there to hurt people.

Exelby is a good example though he most likely will never be more than a 2nd pairing d-man at max.

Btw, Johnson being 6'2 220lbs in 2 years is just wishful thinking, there's a good chance that he won't grow in height at all.

Did you ask me for 5 6'1 physical defenseman in the NHL or for 5 young, top-pairing, 6'1 REALLY physical NHL defensemen? You're quitte funny.

So what if they are old? By the way, Warrener is REALLY physical. 97 pims this year. So is Volchenkov, what a great open ice-hitter. And Witt just turned 30.

Do you want me to name 10 other really physical 6'1 defenseman in the NHL? Because I can.

And you really think a man stop growing at barely 18 years old?

 

[HabLover]

That's not even true. Like I said in my other post, Ryan Suter was drafted before Dion Phaneuf. If you really think Phaneuf would be drafted before Johnson, you're dead wrong, because Johnson has outplayed Suter at the same level, at the same age. So: Johnson > Suter > Phaneuf in their draft year.

Saying that Johnson will be a finesse player is laughable. Phaneuf at 17 years old was certainly not bigger than Johnson, since now he is just 5 pounds bigger and 2 inches taller. When Johnson will be mature he will weight around 220 and 6'2, which is far from "small". Anyway, it's not a matter of how big you are, it's a matter of how big you play. And Johnson plays big.

Sorry Einstein, you are wrong!!!

Suter made the USA WJT at 17 and your beloved JJ didn't accomplish that this past tourney! Maybe a Brian Lee/JJ comparison would be more appropriate at this point!

It's impossible to compare two guys in two drafts spanning two years apart. It's especially difficult when you start bringing in the names of 20 other players and assessing their abilities and draft rank then and now!

It's probably fair to say if the the 2003 NHL draft was redone today, Phaneuf could rise anywhere from #1 to #5. There is no way he would be selected as low as #9 again. Now, perhaps in two years from this year's draft, Johnson may fall from his projected #2 - #4 in 2005 to who knows what? Or maybe not?

In the end people, you just never know????

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

You don't? I certainly do. Bobby Ryan has better stats than Horton in his draft year... Brule's and Ryan's stats are comparable to Staal so the 2005 draft isn't that weak.

What do stats have to do with it? I was talking about how good they'll be in the NHL. I don't see Brule as the same calibre prospect as Staal or Horton. Can't speak to Bobby Ryan, haven't seen him.

 

[markov`]

Sorry Einstein, you are wrong!!!

Suter made the USA WJT at 17 and your beloved JJ didn't accomplish that this past tourney! Maybe a Brian Lee/JJ comparison would be more appropriate at this point!

It's impossible to compare two guys in two drafts spanning two years apart. It's especially difficult when you start bringing in the names of 20 other players and assessing their abilities and draft rank then and now!

It's probably fair to say if the the 2003 NHL draft was redone today, Phaneuf could rise anywhere from #1 to #5. There is no way he would be selected as low as #9 again. Now, perhaps in two years from this year's draft, Johnson may fall from his projected #2 - #4 in 2005 to who knows what? Or maybe not?

In the end people, you just never know????

Johnson was not in the USA team because of politics problems, not hockey

Johnson has something like 35 points in 45 points with the NTDP 18, the same team Suter played in in his draft year, and (I'm not checking the exact numbers now), he had 25 points in 45 games.

It's true that Phaneuf would be drafted earilier if the 2003 draft was redone. But I am saying that a 18 year old Johnson would be drafted before a 18 year old Phaneuf in any draft.

 

[markov`]

What do stats have to do with it?

Stats are a really good indication of the impact the player has on a team.

They are not everything, but they are a good reference. I don't think it's fair to say that Brule and Ryan are not at Staal and Horton level.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Sorry Einstein, you are wrong!!!

Suter made the USA WJT at 17 and your beloved JJ didn't accomplish that this past tourney! Maybe a Brian Lee/JJ comparison would be more appropriate at this point!

It's impossible to compare two guys in two drafts spanning two years apart. It's especially difficult when you start bringing in the names of 20 other players and assessing their abilities and draft rank then and now!

It's probably fair to say if the the 2003 NHL draft was redone today, Phaneuf could rise anywhere from #1 to #5. There is no way he would be selected as low as #9 again. Now, perhaps in two years from this year's draft, Johnson may fall from his projected #2 - #4 in 2005 to who knows what? Or maybe not?

In the end people, you just never know????

You do realize that Johnson wasn't on the team because of his conflict with David Quinn, right? You realize it had nothing to do with ability, and everything to do with politics?

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

They are not everything, but they are a good reference. I don't think it's fair to say that Brule and Ryan are not at Staal and Horton level.

It's perfectly fair. I see Staal as a franchise, #1 centreman. Brule to me looks more like a great 2nd line sniper. I see Staal as being much more valuable and a rare commodity.

 

[Pepper]

Did you ask me for 5 6'1 physical defenseman in the NHL or for 5 young, top-pairing, 6'1 REALLY physical NHL defensemen? You're quitte funny.

Yes I asked for really physical NHL d-men as you can check out yourself by reading my post again.

My point was that Stevens, Foote and Kasper are part of the older generation, they came to the league when the average size was much smaller than nowadays. Stevens as 6'1 d-man was pretty big those days, nowadays 6'1 is probably below-average for d-men.

So what if they are old? By the way, Warrener is REALLY physical. 97 pims this year. So is Volchenkov, what a great open ice-hitter. And Witt just turned 30.

Umm so what, Zhitnik had 102PIM and nobody's calling him a very physical d-man.

Do you want me to name 10 other really physical 6'1 defenseman in the NHL? Because I can.

Please do.

And you really think a man stop growing at barely 18 years old?

Lots of people stop growing at 17.

 

[HabLover]

Heights according to hockeydb...

1. Scott Stevens (6'0)
2. Darius Kasparaitis (5'11)
3. Rhett Warrener (6'1)
4. Anton Volchenkov (6'0)
5. Adam Foote (6'1)
6. Brendan Witt (6'1)
7. Garnet Exelby (6'1)

All of them are really physical, and 6'1 or under. There is many more and anyway, Johnson will be more like 6'2.

Okay, since you can predict how tall and how much JJ will weigh, maybe you could use a better reference site than hockeydb! I'm sorry but I'll refrain from any comments at this point, but hockeydb is using height and weights from like junior or something their bud!

Let's start with Scott Stevens, more along the lines of 6'2 215lbs! Would he have survived all these years at 6' and around 200lbs, I doubt it!

Brendan Witt, well, perhaps something like 6'2 230lbs! You see where I'm going with this hey?

Adam Foote.....6'2 220lbs.

Anyways, of course some sites will differ slightly from one another, but I could on and on. JJ may end up 6'2 or whatever, but don't try to mislead everyone with the current NHL'ers!

 

[HabLover]

You do realize that Johnson wasn't on the team because of his conflict with David Quinn, right? You realize it had nothing to do with ability, and everything to do with politics?

Of course if was! Yes, I believe you......... :lol

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Of course if was! Yes, I believe you......... :lol

You're the one that knows about the inner workings of USA Hockey, so why don't you detail the reasons Jack Johnson was left off the U.S. WJC team?


http://www.hockeyscouting.ca/index.php?module=pagesetter&func=viewpub&tid=1&pid=1925

 

[cagney]

Johnson was not in the USA team because of politics problems, not hockey

Johnson has something like 35 points in 45 points with the NTDP 18, the same team Suter played in in his draft year, and (I'm not checking the exact numbers now), he had 25 points in 45 games.

FWIW, Johnson has 34 points in 41 games and 166 PIMs. Suter had 31 points in 51 games and 136 PIMs. The only difference in schedule is that some NAHL games have replaced some USHL games. Johnson has also probably benefited from playing with better forwards than Suter did. I couldn't say right now which one I'd prefer.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Okay, since you can predict how tall and how much JJ will weigh, maybe you could use a better reference site than hockeydb! I'm sorry but I'll refrain from any comments at this point, but hockeydb is using height and weights from like junior or something their bud!

Let's start with Scott Stevens, more along the lines of 6'2 215lbs! Would he have survived all these years at 6' and around 200lbs, I doubt it!

Brendan Witt, well, perhaps something like 6'2 230lbs! You see where I'm going with this hey?

Adam Foote.....6'2 220lbs.

Anyways, of course some sites will differ slightly from one another, but I could on and on. JJ may end up 6'2 or whatever, but don't try to mislead everyone with the current NHL'ers!

I'm pretty sure I've only ever seen Stevens listed at 6'1. Same with Foote.

HockeyDB actually isn't a bad place to get heights IMO. Some of the other places have more of a problem with exagerated heights. And that's probably why you think all those guys are 6'2, you are used to seeing players heights exaggerated by an inch or so.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I'm pretty sure I've only ever seen Stevens listed at 6'1. Same with Foote.

HockeyDB actually isn't a bad place to get heights IMO. Some of the other places have more of a problem with exagerated heights. And that's probably why you think all those guys are 6'2, you are used to seeing players heights exaggerated by an inch or so.

Whatever the case, one inch and 10-15 pounds doesn't determine how effective a player will be at the physical side of the game.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Whatever the case, one inch and 10-15 pounds doesn't determine how effective a player will be at the physical side of the game.

I agree. Core strength is far more of an issue than an inch or two.

For example on the Flames Andrew Ference is quite physical at times and has been known to knock over much bigger forwards. That's because he's so strong and stable on his skates. Same goes for a guy like Peca who once upon a time had the reputation as one of the bigger open ice hitting forwards and he's less than 6 feet tall.

 

[markov`]

Okay, since you can predict how tall and how much JJ will weigh, maybe you could use a better reference site than hockeydb! I'm sorry but I'll refrain from any comments at this point, but hockeydb is using height and weights from like junior or something their bud!

Let's start with Scott Stevens, more along the lines of 6'2 215lbs! Would he have survived all these years at 6' and around 200lbs, I doubt it!

Brendan Witt, well, perhaps something like 6'2 230lbs! You see where I'm going with this hey?

Adam Foote.....6'2 220lbs.

Anyways, of course some sites will differ slightly from one another, but I could on and on. JJ may end up 6'2 or whatever, but don't try to mislead everyone with the current NHL'ers!

Fact is: 1 or 2 inches doesn't change ANYTHING (and I mean anything) in today's NHL.

 

[markov`]

FWIW, Johnson has 34 points in 41 games and 166 PIMs. Suter had 31 points in 51 games and 136 PIMs. The only difference in schedule is that some NAHL games have replaced some USHL games. Johnson has also probably benefited from playing with better forwards than Suter did. I couldn't say right now which one I'd prefer.

I don't know a lot about the past NTDP programs. You are telling me that Suter was facing better competition than Johnson? How many USHL games have been replaced by year?

 

[markov`]

I agree. Core strength is far more of an issue than an inch or two.

For example on the Flames Andrew Ference is quite physical at times and has been known to knock over much bigger forwards. That's because he's so strong and stable on his skates. Same goes for a guy like Peca who once upon a time had the reputation as one of the bigger open ice hitting forwards and he's less than 6 feet tall.

I wanted to name Andrew Ference in the physical defenseman but I'm sure some guys would've said that he's not nearly physical...

 

[WVP]

I wanted to name Andrew Ference in the physical defenseman but I'm sure some guys would've said that he's not nearly physical...

I thought of Ference when looking over this thread. While he's not the biggest player, he consistently plays physically.

 

[cagney]

I don't know a lot about the past NTDP programs. You are telling me that Suter was facing better competition than Johnson? How many USHL games have been replaced by year?

I don't have the schedule in front of me but maybe ten or so. The NAHL is also a bit weaker now on average than it was a few years ago because players that might gone to the NAHL in the past have decided to go to the USHL since it received Tier 1 status.

It's very hard to draw conclusions from comparing stats between different years in the program as the schedule has changed a lot. The first few years of the program the U18 team didn't even play college teams. Instead they played as a league member of the USHL. Hopefully they'll manage to have a consistant schedule from now on so comparison can be a bit easier.

 

[surixon]

Stats are a really good indication of the impact the player has on a team.

They are not everything, but they are a good reference. I don't think it's fair to say that Brule and Ryan are not at Staal and Horton level.

Agreed, Id rather have Brule then both Horton and Staal, I beleive he's gonna be a really special player. Ryan im not sold on yet, not to take anything away from him, but he does play on a really staked team with lots of top level offensive depth. It will be interesting to see how he does next year after, Richardsen, Jarrette, Rudzisca (Sp) leave.

 

[NYR469]

Men play in the NHL not boys.

just to make sure i got this straight, you are arguing that playing against 16-20 year olds in juniors better prepare you for playing against men than playing against 18-22 year olds in college. are you serious?

it would be one thing if you were talking about an elite league in europe where guys are 20-30+ years old, but juniors and seniors in college are older and more mature physically than junior players.

and newsflash phaneuf is playing against boys compared to the nhl too

 

[VernonForrest]

Don't try to sugercoat the U18 teams schedule! I have never heard of 3/4 of the teams they have played against this year! A few games here and there against some of the better teams doesn't cut it exactly.

There is no doubt JJ has talent and will be a high NHL draft pick, but he is far overhyped on these boards right now and in the past.

I would suggest NAHL teams like the Soo Indians would give most OHL teams a pretty good run for their money. I would rather have my prospect develop playing the amount of games the NTDP plays against quality NCAA teams and the other older opposition they face, then have him toil in the CHL for 2 years.

In my view watching the U-18 team vs the two michigan based NCAA teams I have seen them play against is a better evaluation tool than watching any Whalers prospect play against any OHL team.

 

[Old Hickory]

Btw, Johnson being 6'2 220lbs in 2 years is just wishful thinking, there's a good chance that he won't grow in height at all.

That post was wishful thinking.
Most adult males grow until they are 19 or 20.. On the average, males grow 3/4 on and inch to 1 inch between 18 and 19