Phaneuf vs Johnson

[trahans99]

Who was better in their draft year? Looking at Phaneuf going 9th overall (even though great draft year), I get the impression Johnson will be the better of the two IN THEIR DRAFT YEAR.... now we all know Phaneuf has made incredible strides the past two years.

Who would you rather have? Why?
Who is going to be the better of the two? (I know its early, just curious on thoughts)
Is it safe to say these two play a very similar style of hockey?
Last question: Would Johnson benefit more from playing in CHL instead of US under 18?

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[niconi09]

Phaneuf. Can't really compare the two of them.

Phaneuf is a machine, comparable to Scott Stevens. Johnson has a long way to go, to even be in the same sentence as Phaneuf.

 

[Jeffrey]

I remember well phaneuf draft year .. he wasn't as hyped as Johnson ..
but I don't know if Johnson is better now than phaneuf was at his draft year ...

 

[nomorekids]

Phaneuf. Can't really compare the two of them.

Phaneuf is a machine, comparable to Scott Stevens. Johnson has a long way to go, to even be in the same sentence as Phaneuf.

You do realize that Johnson is compared to Stevens, as well...right?

They're actually very similar players...and I would say that as of NOW...in regard to the question of "in their draft years," Johnson is clearly rated higher...in fact, it seems he's the highest rated d-man since Bouwmeester or Pitkanen. He's slated to go above Bobby Ryan and maybe even Gilbert Brule. That would have been like Suter or Phaneuf going before Nathan Horton and Eric Staal.

 

[Freaky Habs Fan]

You do realize that Johnson is compared to Stevens, as well...right?

Really! Wow...The Habs will never be able to draft him

 

[saillias]

Johnson is a consensus top 3 pick, Dion Phaneuf could have gone anywhere in the top 10. Obviously at the time of each of their drafts, Johnson is better.

 

[Greg7]

Where Johnson will go compared to where Phaneuf is meaningless. 2003 was an amazing draft year, and 2005 is very weak. Any of Fleury, Staal, Horton, Zherdev, Vanek, Parise, Phaneuf, Coburn, Suter, Carter, Getzlaf, Brown and more could easily go before Johnson if they were in the same draft year.

It's a difficult comparison in any case, because Phaneuf really came on AFTER his draft year, and because his year was so deep, you didn't hear nearly as much about him as Johnson this year. One of the main reasons Johnson gets so much attention is because the top end talent is so thin this year.

 

[canucksfan]

Where Johnson will go compared to where Phaneuf is meaningless. 2003 was an amazing draft year, and 2005 is very weak. Any of Fleury, Staal, Horton, Zherdev, Vanek, Parise, Phaneuf, Coburn, Suter, Carter, Getzlaf, Brown and more could easily go before Johnson if they were in the same draft year.

It's a difficult comparison in any case, because Phaneuf really came on AFTER his draft year, and because his year was so deep, you didn't hear nearly as much about him as Johnson this year. One of the main reasons Johnson gets so much attention is because the top end talent is so thin this year.

The 2005 draft isn't very weak. It's much better than 2004 but I don't think it will be good as 2003.

I agree with you that where Phaneuf went where is meaningless.

I haven't seen Johnson play so I won't comment on the original question. The one problem I have is that he didn't make the USA's defence at World Juniors and their defence was very weak.

 

[Greg7]

The 2005 draft isn't very weak. It's much better than 2004 but I don't think it will be good as 2003.

I agree with you that where Phaneuf went where is meaningless.

I haven't seen Johnson play so I won't comment on the original question. The one problem I have is that he didn't make the USA's defence at World Juniors and their defence was very weak.

The main way I can say with confidence that Johnson would not be clearly above many players in 2003 is that Johnson is not clearly #2 this year. If Johnson is similar calibre to Brule, and others in 2005, then he is also a similar calibre to many players in the 2003 draft. I've never seen him play though, so it's not a great argument. On that note, does anyone have any USNTDP games taped? I'd love to get my hands on some of those...

Johnson not making the US WJ team was largely due to politics according to those who know more about the subject than I, although I don't understand this seeing as how Johnson is doing the things USA Hockey would presumably want (playing for the NTDP, going to college).

 

[nomorekids]

The 2005 draft isn't very weak. It's much better than 2004 but I don't think it will be good as 2003.

I agree with you that where Phaneuf went where is meaningless.

I haven't seen Johnson play so I won't comment on the original question. The one problem I have is that he didn't make the USA's defence at World Juniors and their defence was very weak.

USA Hockey is..hm, I can't even think of a good analogy. There's tons of in-fighting, grudges and bickering among the various panels..and unlike hockey canada, where ultimately...the picks go to one or two people...you have various people making various picks for any whim they feel. the whole organization needs a shakedown, because top to bottom, that was NOT the best team the USA could have iced. The fact they came within a goal of a bronze medal is amazing in itself. It's sad to think what they could have done with a decent coach and the proper players.

 

[canucksfan]

USA Hockey is..hm, I can't even think of a good analogy. There's tons of in-fighting, grudges and bickering among the various panels..and unlike hockey canada, where ultimately...the picks go to one or two people...you have various people making various picks for any whim they feel. the whole organization needs a shakedown, because top to bottom, that was NOT the best team the USA could have iced. The fact they came within a goal of a bronze medal is amazing in itself. It's sad to think what they could have done with a decent coach and the proper players.

I thing that I don't understand is something that Greg said. Johnson seems to be going the route that USA hockey wants all of their players to go. If he was playing in the CHL I could understand them not picking him for the team.

 

[nomorekids]

I thing that I don't understand is something that Greg said. Johnson seems to be going the route that USA hockey wants all of their players to go. If he was playing in the CHL I could understand them not picking him for the team.

well, it's like i said in the other thread. it's not so much a grudge toward HIM..but you have too many people making the picks for the team...and their fighting\bickering amongst themselves could sometimes see players that should be there...left out. Johnson isn't another case of Schremp..this is a puzzling thing altogether, and the fact that USAHockey couldn't give a straight answer further indicates that they don't even know why. It's a mess, and it's frustrating. The USA manages to do well at the tournaments..but they're capable of a lot more...meanwhile, other countries are passing us on the development curve.

 

[wolfen]

I thing that I don't understand is something that Greg said. Johnson seems to be going the route that USA hockey wants all of their players to go. If he was playing in the CHL I could understand them not picking him for the team.

I read in an article somebody linked from here that johnson was one of three players who'd had problems with either the coach or the guy picking the team, can't remember which. Either way, all three players were left off the team.

if you do a search you should be able to find the thread, it was pretty recent.

 

[trahans99]

Can we keep the discussion to Phaneuf vs. Johnson and the 3 or 4 questions I asked. I have already seen a number of threads on why Johnson didn't make the US team at xmas.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Where Johnson will go compared to where Phaneuf is meaningless. 2003 was an amazing draft year, and 2005 is very weak. Any of Fleury, Staal, Horton, Zherdev, Vanek, Parise, Phaneuf, Coburn, Suter, Carter, Getzlaf, Brown and more could easily go before Johnson if they were in the same draft year.

It's a difficult comparison in any case, because Phaneuf really came on AFTER his draft year, and because his year was so deep, you didn't hear nearly as much about him as Johnson this year. One of the main reasons Johnson gets so much attention is because the top end talent is so thin this year.

Or maybe it's because Johnson is that good? As for not being the consensus number two pick, that shouldn't be a surprise since the team that will ultimately pick second might prefer a forward, such as Brule, who also doesn't have his draft position set in stone.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I read in an article somebody linked from here that johnson was one of three players who'd had problems with either the coach or the guy picking the team, can't remember which. Either way, all three players were left off the team.

if you do a search you should be able to find the thread, it was pretty recent.

That was the situation. People don't realize what a byzantine organization USA Hockey is. Johnson and a few others hacked a few key officials off, and as a result, he was kept off the WJC team. It's wasn't a reflection of his talent in the least.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Who was better in their draft year? Looking at Phaneuf going 9th overall (even though great draft year), I get the impression Johnson will be the better of the two IN THEIR DRAFT YEAR.... now we all know Phaneuf has made incredible strides the past two years.

Who would you rather have? Why?
Who is going to be the better of the two? (I know its early, just curious on thoughts)
Is it safe to say these two play a very similar style of hockey?
Last question: Would Johnson benefit more from playing in CHL instead of US under 18?

The question I would ask is what does Dion Phaneuf have on Jack Johnson? Experience? IMO, that's about it. They do play a similar style, with Johnson being a bit more dynamic. As for who will be the better of the two, I'll reserve my judgement until I see Johnson play NCAA hockey for a year.

 

[Hunter74]

Johnson does get alot more attention now than Phaneuf did in his draft year. This could be for a couple of reasons.

1) Theres no NHL so people are more focused on prospects.
2) This draft doesn't seem as deep as the 2003 draft so Johnson may be getting more attention than he would of if he were being drafted in 2003 but who really knows.
3) Maybe b/c Phaneuf and Johnson play a similar style people are hopeing that Johnson turns out to be like Phaneuf. In other words Johnson hype is a result of all the hype Phaneuf has been getting in the hockey community.

 

[markov`]

Where Johnson will go compared to where Phaneuf is meaningless. 2003 was an amazing draft year, and 2005 is very weak. Any of Fleury, Staal, Horton, Zherdev, Vanek, Parise, Phaneuf, Coburn, Suter, Carter, Getzlaf, Brown and more could easily go before Johnson if they were in the same draft year.

It's a difficult comparison in any case, because Phaneuf really came on AFTER his draft year, and because his year was so deep, you didn't hear nearly as much about him as Johnson this year. One of the main reasons Johnson gets so much attention is because the top end talent is so thin this year.

What are you talking about? Suter played in the same team, same level as Johnson at the same age and Johnson has better stats so far. In his draft year, IMO, Johnson is by far better than Phaneuf. He has outscored Suter, who was drafted before Phaneuf.

It's easy to say that all of these players would go top 3 in 2005 because the draft is crap. All of the players you've named are 2 years older than the 05 eligible, so obviously they are better now. We'll see in 2-3 years but saying 2005 draft crop is very weak is pre-mature to say the least. There is over 7-8 players that have the potential to become franchise players in this draft (Crosby, Brule, Johnson, Ryan, Latendresse, Staal, Rask, Pouliot, Zagrapan, Bourret, etc)

If Johnson would be a 03 eligible I bet he would've been the first defenseman picked, no doubt.

The thing with Phaneuf is that he boomed out the year after the draft. In his draft year, he was just a very good defensive, punishing orange-liner (we'll have to get used I guess :lol) but with not that much of upside. His 9th overall draft position proves it.

At this point it's impossible to say who will be the better player at the same age. Phaneuf has developed a lot in the last two years. At the same age Johnson is better, but I doubt he will develop as well as Phaneuf. But like I said it's impossible to predict.

 

[Flames Draft Watcher]

You do realize that Johnson is compared to Stevens, as well...right?

They're actually very similar players...and I would say that as of NOW...in regard to the question of "in their draft years," Johnson is clearly rated higher...in fact, it seems he's the highest rated d-man since Bouwmeester or Pitkanen. He's slated to go above Bobby Ryan and maybe even Gilbert Brule. That would have been like Suter or Phaneuf going before Nathan Horton and Eric Staal.

I don't see Brule as being in the same calibre as a Horton or a Staal.

 

[DuklaNation]

Phaneuf hands down. Bigger and more suited to NHL than Johnson. This is not even close. 2 years ago, Phaneuf was a physical d with some offensive skills. Maybe like Adam Foote, you'd take that over a finesse defensman any day. Johnson aint no Brian Leetch.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Phaneuf hands down. Bigger and more suited to NHL than Johnson. This is not even close. 2 years ago, Phaneuf was a physical d with some offensive skills. Maybe like Adam Foote, you'd take that over a finesse defensman any day. Johnson aint no Brian Leetch.

Dion Phaneuf is listed at 6' 2'' 205 lbs and Jack Johnson is listed at 6' 1" 200 lbs. Big differance there........ Fact is, you don't have any idea what you're talking about as Johnson can hardly be labeled as just a finesse defenseman. His physical play and defensive zone awareness are actually hallmarks of his game.

 

[WVP]

Phaneuf hands down. Bigger and more suited to NHL than Johnson. This is not even close. 2 years ago, Phaneuf was a physical d with some offensive skills. Maybe like Adam Foote, you'd take that over a finesse defensman any day. Johnson aint no Brian Leetch.

What exactly are you talking about?

 

[Frenzy31]

Phaneuf hands down. Bigger and more suited to NHL than Johnson. This is not even close. 2 years ago, Phaneuf was a physical d with some offensive skills. Maybe like Adam Foote, you'd take that over a finesse defensman any day. Johnson aint no Brian Leetch.

WOW finesse Dman... You really need to watch him play. Johnson is willing to drop gloves and plays with a nasty edge, don't assume that he is a finesse Dman because he is very good with the puck.

Johnson has a lot more hype around him this year then Phaneuf. But as people point out, Phaneuf didn't really really breakout until the year after he was drafted.

It is very hard to compare players that are not in the same draft class, due to development. Phaneuf is far closer to the NHL the Johnson.

Personally, I don't think you can go wrong w/ either.

 

[ryz]

Dion Phaneuf is listed at 6' 2'' 205 lbs and Jack Johnson is listed at 6' 1" 200 lbs. Big differance there........ Fact is, you don't have any idea what you're talking about as Johnson can hardly be labeled as just a finesse defenseman. His physical play and defensive zone awareness are actually hallmarks of his game.

I've never seen Johnson play so I can't really compare fairly, but I will say this. If you have seen Dion Phaneuf in person within the last 6 months or so I garauntee you is is substantially more than 200 or 205 lbs. I would put him alot closer to 220 and he says he wants to gain a little bulk before he hits Flames training camp.