Phaneuf vs Johnson

[Rabid Ranger]

What exactly are you talking about?

Nothing of substance.

 

[Pepper]

The question I would ask is what does Dion Phaneuf have on Jack Johnson? Experience? IMO, that's about it. They do play a similar style, with Johnson being a bit more dynamic. As for who will be the better of the two, I'll reserve my judgement until I see Johnson play NCAA hockey for a year.

Bigger, more physical, higher offensive upside.

At this point, Phaneuf hands down for me.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I've never seen Johnson play so I can't really compare fairly, but I will say this. If you have seen Dion Phaneuf in person within the last 6 months or so I garauntee you is is substantially more than 200 or 205 lbs. I would put him alot closer to 220 and he says he wants to gain a little bulk before he hits Flames training camp.

Fair enough. I saw the Rebels website had him listed at 6'3 208lbs, which is probably closer to reality. That being said, Johnson is what, two years younger than Phaneuf? I'm sure he'll grow a tad taller and bulk up. Even if there is a one inch and fifteen pound differance between the two, it won't be enough to be a significant factor IMO.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Bigger, more physical, higher offensive upside.

At this point, Phaneuf hands down for me.

Yes, he is bigger, so what? Johnson is two years younger. As for your last two points, care to back that up with anything of substance?

 

[bleedgreen]

what school did johnson commit to?

 

[Rabid Ranger]

what school did johnson commit to?

Michigan.

 

[Pepper]

Yes, he is bigger, so what? Johnson is two years younger. As for your last two points, care to back that up with anything of substance?

Well have you heard/seen Johnson crushing opponents to the hospital with clean hard checks a la Olesz & Getzlaf? Has Johnson fought guys as tough as Phaneuf has? From the reports I've seen he doesn't do that, he's tough but he's not on Phaneuf's level, not yet atleast.

Offensively Johnson has not shown similar abilities yet, Phaneuf was the leading blueman of team Canada by far (twice as many points as the next) and was a constant threat on PP.

Let's put it this way, Phaneuf has proved quite a lot already, what has Johnson shown so far to make him comparable in the future?

 

[Vatican Roulette]

Well have you heard/seen Johnson crushing opponents to the hospital with clean hard checks a la Olesz & Getzlaf? Has Johnson fought guys as tough as Phaneuf has? From the reports I've seen he doesn't do that, he's tough but he's not on Phaneuf's level, not yet atleast.

Offensively Johnson has not shown similar abilities yet, Phaneuf was the leading blueman of team Canada by far (twice as many points as the next) and was a constant threat on PP.

Let's put it this way, Phaneuf has proved quite a lot already, what has Johnson shown so far to make him comparable in the future?

I have seen Johnson crush opponents as hard as Phaneuf. He's an extremely good bodychecker. Johnson can't fight guys like Phaneuf fights them. In college( i dont know the rules in NTDP) if you fight, you get suspended.

Offensively, you underrate Johnson. He'll be the best offensive defenseman in his draft year, has the most potential at least. Phaneuf also did that being a couple years older, a better comparison would be Phaneuf's 1st WJC.

Johnson is the best player on the ice everytime i see him play. He's just as mean as Phaneuf, just as big, just as good offensively, and a better skater. Johnson plays sort of like Jovonovski does.

I'll take Johnson.

 

[MrMastodonFarm*]

I'll take Johnson.

Here we go, we will now have a series of Phaneuf vs Johnson polls for the next 365 days. I can't wait.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

I have seen Johnson crush opponents as hard as Phaneuf. He's an extremely good bodychecker. Johnson can't fight guys like Phaneuf fights them. In college( i dont know the rules in NTDP) if you fight, you get suspended.

Offensively, you underrate Johnson. He'll be the best offensive defenseman in his draft year, has the most potential at least. Phaneuf also did that being a couple years older, a better comparison would be Phaneuf's 1st WJC.

Johnson is the best player on the ice everytime i see him play. He's just as mean as Phaneuf, just as big, just as good offensively, and a better skater. Johnson plays sort of like Jovonovski does.

I'll take Johnson.

Well put. IMO, it's pretty difficult to compare the two anyway since they're two years apart development wise. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[DuklaNation]

What exactly are you talking about?

Ever see Aki berg play? He's bigger than Phaneuf but plays like he's 5'8. Johnson's never faced credible competition in my view yet. Men play in the NHL not boys. And I have seen him play. Looks finesse to me. If he fights in the NHL, he'll get his clock cleaned in a heartbeat. His game will be as a finesse player with some edge.

And the size stats for all US/NCAA players are almost always overstated.

Phaneuf is also bigger than what the stats say and plays in a much tougher WHL.

All I'm trying to say is that Phaneuf's game translates better to the NHL style than Johnson.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Ever see Aki berg play? He's bigger than Phaneuf but plays like he's 5'8. Johnson's never faced credible competition in my view yet. Men play in the NHL not boys. And I have seen him play. Looks finesse to me. If he fights in the NHL, he'll get his clock cleaned in a heartbeat. His game will be as a finesse player with some edge.

And the size stats for all US/NCAA players are almost always overstated.

Phaneuf is also bigger than what the stats say and plays in a much tougher WHL.

All I'm trying to say is that Phaneuf's game translates better to the NHL style than Johnson.

How is this schedule not credible? http://www.usahockey.com/ntdp/18u/main/under_18/

Are you trying to say that top-flite division 1 hockey programs like Michigan, Minnesota, Michigan State, and New Hampshire aren't up to snuff? You do realize that on average a NCAA team is older than a WHL team, right? As for Johnson's "style," you sure don't seem to understand how he plays at all.

 

[DuklaNation]

How is this schedule not credible? http://www.usahockey.com/ntdp/18u/main/under_18/

Are you trying to say that top-flite division 1 hockey programs like Michigan, Minnesota, Michigan State, and New Hampshire aren't up to snuff? You do realize that on average a NCAA team is older than a WHL team, right? As for Johnson's "style," you sure don't seem to understand how he plays at all.

Just reviewed their schedule. What a joke! That definitely is a weak schedule. Therefore, hsi performance lacks credibility. Why do you think scouts want players in the junior leagues? How he plays in those meaningless games vs college teams doesnt translate to the NHL very well.

At his size, he'll be a finesse player. Check out NHL rosters for defensmen and their various heights & weights. He's smallish in today's NHL. Get over it.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Just reviewed their schedule. What a joke! That definitely is a weak schedule. Therefore, hsi performance lacks credibility. Why do you think scouts want players in the junior leagues? How he plays in those meaningless games vs college teams doesnt translate to the NHL very well.

At his size, he'll be a finesse player. Check out NHL rosters for defensmen and their various heights & weights. He's smallish in today's NHL. Get over it.

Get over what, the fact you have no idea what you're talking about? You don't don't anything about the USNTDP or Jack Johnson. Shoot, you probably don't know anything about Dion Phaneuf.

 

[Pepper]

Get over what, the fact you have no idea what you're talking about? You don't don't anything about the USNTDP or Jack Johnson. Shoot, you probably don't know anything about Dion Phaneuf.

You know it really makes you look like a bitter person when you keep using that "you don't know what you're talking about" argument everytime someone disagrees with you.

WHL is much more physical than NCAA, a fact. Whereas a 6'1 defenseman can appeart to be relatively physical in that league, it's a whole different thing to be a physical 6'1 d-man in the NHL.

Btw, now that we're talking about this, list me 5 6'1 d-man in the NHL who are really physical.

 

[markov`]

I don't see Brule as being in the same calibre as a Horton or a Staal.

You don't? I certainly do. Bobby Ryan has better stats than Horton in his draft year... Brule's and Ryan's stats are comparable to Staal so the 2005 draft isn't that weak.

 

[markov`]

Why do you think scouts want players in the junior leagues?

That's not even true. Like I said in my other post, Ryan Suter was drafted before Dion Phaneuf. If you really think Phaneuf would be drafted before Johnson, you're dead wrong, because Johnson has outplayed Suter at the same level, at the same age. So: Johnson > Suter > Phaneuf in their draft year.

Saying that Johnson will be a finesse player is laughable. Phaneuf at 17 years old was certainly not bigger than Johnson, since now he is just 5 pounds bigger and 2 inches taller. When Johnson will be mature he will weight around 220 and 6'2, which is far from "small". Anyway, it's not a matter of how big you are, it's a matter of how big you play. And Johnson plays big.

 

[Epsilon]

The Phaneuf hype machine must be working overtime if people actually believe that he was better in his draft year (which is the qustion being asked) than Johnson has been in his. I'd say it's not really even close.

 

[Blue Bullet]

Instead of getting into a pissing contest I think the poster just wanted people's opinions and his questions answered. Here is my take:

Better in their draft year: Well I think Johnson is better than Suter in their draft year and Suter was my pick as well as McKeens, ISS and the Hockey News top d-man for the 2003 draft. So I would have to say, without a doubt, that I believe Johnson is better than Phaneuf in their draft year.

Rather have: That's a tough one. I think Johnson has higher upside but Phaneuf is 2 years older and closer to a sure thing so I would have to go with Phaneuf.

Better of the two: I'll go out on a limb and say Johnson. They are both mean, tough d-men with good size but I think Johnson is a better skater and has more offensive upside.

Similar style: They do have somewhat of a similar style because both love to hit and play with an edge.

CHL/NCAA: Either way. Both have thier merits and I don't think going the NCAA route will hurt him. I also do not expect him to be their more than a couple of years.

 

[markov`]

Btw, now that we're talking about this, list me 5 6'1 d-man in the NHL who are really physical.

Heights according to hockeydb...

1. Scott Stevens (6'0)
2. Darius Kasparaitis (5'11)
3. Rhett Warrener (6'1)
4. Anton Volchenkov (6'0)
5. Adam Foote (6'1)
6. Brendan Witt (6'1)
7. Garnet Exelby (6'1)

All of them are really physical, and 6'1 or under. There is many more and anyway, Johnson will be more like 6'2.

 

[HabLover]

How is this schedule not credible? http://www.usahockey.com/ntdp/18u/main/under_18/

Are you trying to say that top-flite division 1 hockey programs like Michigan, Minnesota, Michigan State, and New Hampshire aren't up to snuff? You do realize that on average a NCAA team is older than a WHL team, right? As for Johnson's "style," you sure don't seem to understand how he plays at all.

Don't try to sugercoat the U18 teams schedule! I have never heard of 3/4 of the teams they have played against this year! A few games here and there against some of the better teams doesn't cut it exactly.

There is no doubt JJ has talent and will be a high NHL draft pick, but he is far overhyped on these boards right now and in the past.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

You know it really makes you look like a bitter person when you keep using that "you don't know what you're talking about" argument everytime someone disagrees with you.

WHL is much more physical than NCAA, a fact. Whereas a 6'1 defenseman can appeart to be relatively physical in that league, it's a whole different thing to be a physical 6'1 d-man in the NHL.

Btw, now that we're talking about this, list me 5 6'1 d-man in the NHL who are really physical.

JACK JOHNSON IS TWO YEARS YOUNGER THAN DION PHANEUF!!!! He's only 17! Who's to say he won't grow another inch or two and gain 10 to 20 more pounds? Who's to say he won't get stronger than what he currently is? He's a work-out freak as it is. By the time he makes the NHL he'll be able to play anyway he wants to, and do it well.

 

[Pepper]

Heights according to hockeydb...

1. Scott Stevens (6'0)
2. Darius Kasparaitis (5'11)
3. Rhett Warrener (6'1)
4. Anton Volchenkov (6'0)
5. Adam Foote (6'1)
6. Brendan Witt (6'1)
7. Garnet Exelby (6'1)

All of them are really physical, and 6'1 or under. There is many more and anyway, Johnson will be more like 6'2.

Stevens, Kasparaitis, Witt and Foote are all getting old, Stevens probably has 1-2 year at max.

Warrener & Volcnenkov are not REALLY physical, I mean they are not intimidated by physical play and dish out hits but they are not really out there to hurt people.

Exelby is a good example though he most likely will never be more than a 2nd pairing d-man at max.

Btw, Johnson being 6'2 220lbs in 2 years is just wishful thinking, there's a good chance that he won't grow in height at all.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Don't try to sugercoat the U18 teams schedule! I have never heard of 3/4 of the teams they have played against this year! A few games here and there against some of the better teams doesn't cut it exactly.

There is no doubt JJ has talent and will be a high NHL draft pick, but he is far overhyped on these boards right now and in the past.

The guy I was referring to said Johnson hadn't faced any "credible" competition. I listed several top-notch division 1 NCAA schools that he has faced to refute that. Of course the Under 18 team plays alot of cream puffs, that doesn't refute the point I was making. As for being overhyped, how can a player that's widely regarded as the number two overall pick have that kind of cloud over his head? He's done everything to justify the praise going his way.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Stevens, Kasparaitis, Witt and Foote are all getting old, Stevens probably has 1-2 year at max.

Warrener & Volcnenkov are not REALLY physical, I mean they are not intimidated by physical play and dish out hits but they are not really out there to hurt people.

Exelby is a good example though he most likely will never be more than a 2nd pairing d-man at max.

Btw, Johnson being 6'2 220lbs in 2 years is just wishful thinking, there's a good chance that he won't grow in height at all.

What does age have to do with anything? The fact is, one or two inches and 10-15 pounds isn't going to make or break a player. Johnson is incredibly strong, and is a work-out fanatic. He also has tremendous balance. He'll be able to get the job done at the next level.