Recalled/Assigned: Petan and Kaskisuo

[sparxx87]

Note the many very different responses and suggestions and people talking about McBackup's bad game. Also, note that the poll is who will, not who should. Also, note the reactionary timing of that thread.

Choosing Sparks was the correct choice, regardless of outcome. Sometimes correct choices have bad outcomes.


You mean the one where you claimed:

Yeah, you're like a god at evaluating goalies clearly. So easy, am I right?

15-16-5, 3.09 GAA, 0.900 SV% since.

Dat elite foresight.

Choosing Sparks was clearly the wrong decision because the guy they waived played wayyyy better than him. He actually stole the net for a time and appeared in some playoff games... That guy earned a new two year NHL contract this summer with management and scouting staff that’s considered the class of the league.... All while Sparks was traded for David Clarkson after being basically kicked off the team for sucking and talking ****.

I’m not sure how this was anything other than a big mistake by Kyle Dubas.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I’m not sure how this was anything other than a big mistake by Kyle Dubas.

Because for reasonable people in the real world who aren't just trying to blindly attack Dubas, decisions aren't only evaluated by the final isolated outcome, especially when that outcome is unpredictable and out of your direct control.

Sparks had earned a chance. To not give him that chance is sending the wrong message to your entire group of players, prospects, and your development team, and it creates issues beyond that year.

The outcome was unfortunate, but it had no impact on the team's outcome, and that's the decision he should be making every single time.

If Dubas had kept McBackup, he had been his usual mediocre self instead of the Vezina-caliber goalie he was in 2017-2018, and Sparks went on to be a successful goalie elsewhere without getting a chance in Toronto, would you be praising Dubas for a job well done? No, you wouldn't.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Nope. You lose him on waivers, without even giving him a chance.

So there was no way to keep Sparks in the AHL one more year ?

Can you start a season with 3 goalies ?

hehehehe.

Waive them later ?

 

[TOGuy14]

So there was no way to keep Sparks in the AHL one more year ?

Can you start a season with 3 goalies ?

hehehehe.

Waive them later ?

You can keep as many goalies as you want on the roster but:

1. That is taking up a roster spot
2. That money will count against the cap
3. A third goalie will not get any play time, which is key for keeping sharp and/or development
4. It is much easier to try and sneak a goalie through waivers in training camp than during the season when injuries and bad performances start to pile up.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So there was no way to keep Sparks in the AHL one more year ?

Not really, no.

Can you start a season with 3 goalies ?

If you want to sacrifice depth elsewhere. And with how often backup goalies play in Toronto, how would that have helped us, or the players, and what would we have learned anytime soon? Sparks won many of his early games anyway. If they waived them later, that's just increasing the chance that they're claimed, and then you're messing with the Marlies season.

 

[sparxx87]

Because for reasonable people in the real world who aren't just trying to blindly attack Dubas, decisions aren't only evaluated by the final isolated outcome, especially when that outcome is unpredictable and out of your direct control.

Sparks had earned a chance. To not give him that chance is sending the wrong message to your entire group of players, prospects, and your development team, and it creates issues beyond that year.

The outcome was unfortunate, but it had no impact on the team's outcome, and that's the decision he should be making every single time.

If Dubas had kept McBackup, he had been his usual mediocre self instead of the Vezina-caliber goalie he was in 2017-2018, and Sparks went on to be a successful goalie elsewhere without getting a chance in Toronto, would you be praising Dubas for a job well done? No, you wouldn't.

This isn’t the real world. This is the hockey world and clearly you’re out of your element. I’m critical of Dubas because I think he’s a fraud but I’ve been fair on the rare occasion he does something right.

The outcome was predictable and it’s been shown to you several times that the overwhelming majority knew Sparks couldn’t cut it.

It’s sending the wrong message to give a guy a job who didn’t earn it. And, to waive a veteran who was effective and a great fit with Anderson. Apparently they had a great relationship and that’s not always the case between goalies.

Many believe a better backup might have gotten them a few more points and possibly a home ice. I’m not sure that’s true but to say a goalie has no impact is absolutely ridiculous.

Last paragraph is a trick question because Sparks never had NHL upside. Mediocre NHL backup is still an NHL backup which Garrett Sparks is not.

 

[DarkKnight]

It was pretty obvious to many that Sparks was never going to cut it despite having some success against shooters in a lower league.
Those many were consistent with their views and over time proven to be correct.

Just have to chalk it up to a learning moment for the rookie GM. Unfortunately you're going to get these situations when someone is learning as they go.

Yep, it was a learning moment, his sense of loyalty to his AHL team clouded his judgement. Any GM has blemishes, you take their performance in totality. The guy isn't infallible, obviously, so surely we are mature enough to digest each move, with a wider opinion of the body of work. I never get the 100% crowd, I'm a "Dubas guy" so I must defend everything. I've given Dubas credit for many things he's done and criticized what I thought were errors. What's the value of knowing your answer before the question, how is that in any way instructive?

I'm still on the fence with Dubas, on the issue of our backup he gets a fail for me. If anyone told me KK would be our backup in September I would have been shocked. Our cap situation is a concern. Does that make one a hater? Please.

 

[nuck]

Clearing waivers does not equal not interested..necessarily!

If he can manage more top 9 minutes while Marner is out maybe he can find his way. He has managed to follow Martin St Louis' slow growth pattern but he needs to get in another 50 games this year and I don't think he'll do it. Too many scoring forwards on the Leafs just like the Jets.

 

[Joey Hoser]

In case anyone forgets, Carolina had a goalie injured the very day McBackup and Pickard were put on waivers. The Leafs expected one of the two to clear.

 

[ACC1224]

Yep, it was a learning moment, his sense of loyalty to his AHL team clouded his judgement. Any GM has blemishes, you take their performance in totality. The guy isn't infallible, obviously, so surely we are mature enough to digest each move, with a wider opinion of the body of work. I never get the 100% crowd, I'm a "Dubas guy" so I must defend everything. I've given Dubas credit for many things he's done and criticized what I thought were errors. What's the value of knowing your answer before the question, how is that in any instructive?

I'm still on the fence with Dubas, on the issue of our backup he gets a fail for me. If anyone told me KK would be our backup in September I would have been shocked. Our cap situation is a concern. Does that make one a hater? Please.

There do seem to be a small crowd that are 100% on many things, Dubas/Babcock/Nylander/Marner/etc.
Really strange, hard to figure out.
Luckily there are more that seem a little more honest and balanced with their thoughts.

 

[ACC1224]

In case anyone forgets, Carolina had a goalie injured the very day McBackup and Pickard were put on waivers. The Leafs expected one of the two to clear.

Yeah, it was a bit of bad timing. Not really surprising for this Organization.

 

[deletethis]

I think it's a little bit unfair to believe that all unclaimed players are incapable of contributing to an NHL team.

 

[Buds17]

In case anyone forgets, Carolina had a goalie injured the very day McBackup and Pickard were put on waivers. The Leafs expected one of the two to clear.

I'd definitely say it's rare to have any team lose two goalies during a single waiver period. I'd also think it's rare to have two NHL experienced goalies to have to expose to waivers during that same period to begin with.

Beyond that, McElhinney would likely have priced himself out of Toronto by now. The more relevant issue is the revolving door the backup role has become since he left, and specifically, the lack of points the current situation has offered up so far this season. It's been said that the third time's the charm, so I'll have that hope and cross my fingers.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

How does one utilize Petan properly? They only have 4 lines. A 5th liner will always be miscast.

Very easy - You play him on one of the top-3 lines, and not the 4th line where offense goes to die. The 4th line is played in HEAVY defensive usage, why on earth would anyone play Petan in those situations. Just like Babock has given up on Spezza being used on the 4th line (I.e either he plays 3rd line or he's scratched now), do the same with Petan.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Better than Hutch and Sparks.

Sorry. I dont gamble with goalies.

I keep Sparks in the AHL until my proven guy declines.

And if a team wants to gamble on my AHL goalie I make the trade.

Sparks and Dubas were buddies ... good guy Dubas gambled on his buddy and lost.

You need a backup goalie.

Our season is 100% done if Andersen gets injured.

Sparks and Dubas were buddies? Just like the Raptors, this new Leafs team is built via internally. Just like the Raptors utilize their G-team, we utilize our AHL team. We reward players for their success in the AHL, by promoting them and giving them a chance. This isn't a charity, but this is a team culture that Leafs are attempting to replicate (Something no Leaf team in the past 20 years has done with their AHL team).

We've had Nylander, Kapanen, Johnsson, Hyman, Moore, Timashov, Gauthier, Brown, Leivo, Dermott, Holl, etc all graduate from the AHL to our NHL team because they deserved promotions and a chance to succeed on the next-level.

Hopefully he finds us a good back-up soon externally. Because right now the only good options we have internally are Ian Scott and Joseph Woll, whom are both not ready yet.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Goaltenders are voodoo.

Look at someone like Scott Darling. Average early in his pro career, a couple top notch AHL seasons and then gets a shot in the NHL around the age of 25 years old and does very well with the Hawks for 3 seasons... like he was super good. He then gets traded from a good team at the time to a bad one in the Canes and Darling can't stop a beach ball at the NHL, gets waived, goes to the AHL and also can't stop a beach ball there. Gets bought out 2 seasons later. No NHL contract at this time. Andrew Hammond is another recent example. Goes on a huge streak with the Sens but now he's sort of back to being a very average AHL goaltender.

Then there's a few late bloomer goaltenders that finally figured it out like Dubnyk or Campbell that were able to stand off bad early pro seasons into pretty solid careers so far. I'm sure there are other examples.

Leafs don't need a ~1.5 GAA and .930% backup goaltender. They really just need consistency and someone that is at least close to average... like Sparks was last season. It would be great if they can get a super hot Kaskisuo that goes on an Andrew Hammond run.

A lot of it has to do with quality of team too.

A guy like McElhinney is very predictable. He will steal the odd game, or will have the odd stinker, but mostly he will play about as well as the team in front of him. That's typically what you want from a backup. Problem is, the Leafs did not play nearly as well in front of Sparks/Hutch. Based on McElhinney's career norm, that would mean he wouldn't have been an amazing backup for us last year either.

The Leafs do need to improve their play in front of their backup if they expect better results than they received from Sparks, but their play still should have earned them 50% of the possible points had they been playing in front of a competent backup; Hutch was only able to get 10%, and it was a lucky 10%. Therefore, replacing Hutchinson was definitely the right move.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Very easy - You play him on one of the top-3 lines, and not the 4th line where offense goes to die. The 4th line is played in HEAVY defensive usage, why on earth would anyone play Petan in those situations. Just like Babock has given up on Spezza being used on the 4th line (I.e either he plays 3rd line or he's scratched now), do the same with Petan.

Makes sense to me.

 

[ACC1224]

Looks like Crosby is out, so the backup gets a break there.
https://www.tsn.ca/report-pittsburgh-penguins-sidney-crosby-weighing-sports-hernia-surgery-1.1397096

 

[Cap'n Flavour]

How does one utilize Petan properly? They only have 4 lines. A 5th liner will always be miscast.

He has been fine the few games he played on the 4th line.

Neither did Korshkov, Gauthier etc. Nothing was handed to them yet they made an impression with what they’re given. That’s how it works in the NHL.

... what kind of impression has Korshkov made in the zero NHL games he has played, exactly? Gauthier's a barely passable 4th line faceoff specialist at this point.

Team leading possession?

That's a really compelling counter-argument.

The cream always rises to the top yet Petan has sunk himself with two different teams and two different coaches. He isn’t an NHL player and it’s curious that so many talk like he is.

He's a fringe player at this point, exactly like Timashov, Gauthier and Shore (who didn't even play in the NHL last season). Nobody is attached to any of them but it's clear that Timashov-Gauthier-Shore isn't working, even accounting for the difficult usage they get.

 

[Dekes For Days]

This isn’t the real world.

Actually, we are in the real world. You might not be, but the rest of us are.

I’m critical of Dubas because I think he’s a fraud

Well at least you're honest about your insane bias, and the fact that you are evaluating the person based on your perception of him, not the actual decisions he makes.

but I’ve been fair on the rare occasion he does something right.

He's done a large majority of things right, and no you haven't.

The outcome was predictable

Gotta love how people talk about how goalies are the most unpredictable position in maybe all of sports, and yet here you are, with little to no explanation or justification, and in direct contrast to all of the stats, claiming that the outcome was perfectly predictable.

and it’s been shown to you several times that the overwhelming majority knew Sparks couldn’t cut it.

This is incorrect. It's been shown once that some reactionary fans, with little information or thought or explanation, believed that McBackup would be the goaltender that season, based on snap reactions at convenient timing and/or consistent negativity. This is not the same thing.

It’s sending the wrong message to give a guy a job who didn’t earn it.

He did earn it.

Many believe a better backup might have gotten them a few more points and possibly a home ice.

And if you actually look at the information instead of blind belief, we see that that was very, very unlikely to happen, regardless of which backup was there. It had no impact last season, and that season is over.

Last paragraph is a trick question because Sparks never had NHL upside.

Just like Binnington, right?

This is untrue. You don't want to answer the question because you know the answer, and the answer is you would have blasted Dubas no matter what, even for the exact opposite decision. It is clear that you are attacking the person who made a correct decision because you don't like the outcome or the person.

 

[sparxx87]

Very easy - You play him on one of the top-3 lines, and not the 4th line where offense goes to die. The 4th line is played in HEAVY defensive usage, why on earth would anyone play Petan in those situations. Just like Babock has given up on Spezza being used on the 4th line (I.e either he plays 3rd line or he's scratched now), do the same with Petan.

18-34-88
_-91-_
_-15-_

Which one of 24, 11, 42, 65 do you put on the 4th line to accomplish this?

 

[sparxx87]

He has been fine the few games he played on the 4th line.



... what kind of impression has Korshkov made in the zero NHL games he has played, exactly? Gauthier's a barely passable 4th line faceoff specialist at this point.



That's a really compelling counter-argument.



He's a fringe player at this point, exactly like Timashov, Gauthier and Shore (who didn't even play in the NHL last season). Nobody is attached to any of them but it's clear that Timashov-Gauthier-Shore isn't working, even accounting for the difficult usage they get.

I disagree. I don’t thing he adds anything and he has a pee wee shot.

Korshkov was an unknown for many and made a strong impression in limited opportunity. He put his name in the mix.

Possession numbers are kind of silly, especially in this situation. Didn’t really think I needed to counter a non-argument.

Shore and Gauthier are typical 4th liners. Petan has never been able to stick anywhere. Jury is still out on Timashov. He does some good things but IQ has been questionable at some points.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

18-34-88
_-91-_
_-15-_

Which one of 24, 11, 42, 65 do you put on the 4th line to accomplish this?

18 - 34 - 88 (19 minutes)
11 - 91 - 24 (16 minutes)
65 - 15 - 61 (15 minutes)
41 - 33 - 42 (10 minutes)

If you don't like Moore playing on the 4th line (even though that'd make a great defensive line), Babcock has to switch up his usage. Timashov-Gauthier have improved over the years yes, but they shouldn't be killed with abnormal defensive usage.

18 - 34 - 88 (19 minutes)
11 - 91 - 24 (16 minutes)
65 - 15 - 42 (15 minutes)
41 - 19/33 - 61 (10 minutes) --> WITHOUT a heavy defensive usage.

 

[sparxx87]

18 - 34 - 88 (19 minutes)
11 - 91 - 24 (16 minutes)
65 - 15 - 61 (15 minutes)
41 - 33 - 42 (10 minutes)

If you don't like Moore playing on the 4th line (even though that'd make a great defensive line), Babcock has to switch up his usage. Timashov-Gauthier have improved over the years yes, but they shouldn't be killed with abnormal defensive usage.

18 - 34 - 88 (19 minutes)
11 - 91 - 24 (16 minutes)
65 - 15 - 42 (15 minutes)
41 - 19/33 - 61 (10 minutes) --> WITHOUT a heavy defensive usage.

For me, Petan on the 4th line makes no sense and both Mikheyev and Moore are far more deserving of that extra ice.

Moore has been busting his ass for that team since the day he got there. A Mitch Marner injury presents a tremendous opportunity for a player like him and it’d be pretty disappointing to see some of that extra ice cut for Nic Petan.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

For me, Petan on the 4th line makes no sense and both Mikheyev and Moore are far more deserving of that extra ice.

Moore has been busting his ass for that team since the day he got there. A Mitch Marner injury presents a tremendous opportunity for a player like him and it’d be pretty disappointing to see some of that extra ice cut for Nic Petan.

Agreed with your 2nd paragraph. That's why I'd like to see Babcock change up his usage. Makes zero sense to have the 4th line be a defensive shutdown line (I.e for defensive zone faceoff shifts).

I'd like to see Mikheyev - Kerfoot - Moore get a lot more defensive-usage than they've had so far. That frees up the 4th line to be productive rather then being caved in night after night. Timashov - Spezza/Shore/Gauthier - Petan line is perfect for that.