Post-Game Talk: Pens vs. Caps for the 80th time

[Dipsy Doodle]

Agree with all of that, and never said anything to the contrary.

I just think people need to be more understanding of the position Zuck was put in before they slam him too hard. Him also not being tried on PP1 was pretty lame from Sullivan. One of the best shots in our arsenal and we didn't even get to test it there. Ours is one of the worst in the NHL, and BY FAR the worst in terms of expected production relative to talent level.

Guentzel-Sid being attached at the hip only tells me that Sullivan has preset pairs in his mind, and he's too worried about appeasing Sid by giving him someone he enjoys playing with. Sullivan is his bitch basically. Doesn't tell me anything about their potential chemistry.

Yeah, Zucker and Sid should've been tried.

With that never happening, Zucker really has no use here.

 

[vodeni]

I think he'd get more than what Kessel got, but he's in the tier where you have the conversation first. I still think our best chance this year is for Malkin to find whatever he had last year.

I think at some point next year, if it keeps going the way it is you broach talks about an extension but for something like 3/$18M. If he balks at that, then you start exploring the trade.

you think? Malkin for POJ type of prospect basically and bag of pucks called Galchenyk, sometimes I wonder...

 

[ChaosAgent]

you think? Malkin for POJ type of prospect basically and bag of pucks called Galchenyk, sometimes I wonder...

No way. He'll have 1 year left on his deal which is better than Phil if you're worried about the long-term risk.

He's also a much better hockey player which everyone knows.

The one advantage of Phil vs. Malkin trade value wise is that his cash outlay was lower than his cap hit I think which is obviously relevant to a team like the Coyotes (and in 2+ years of <50% full arenas, relevant to all teams).

I'm not looking to trade Malkin, but he should get way more than Phil did.

 

[vodeni]

Won't hold my breath on that. His conditioning isn't anywhere close to last year's, by his own admission. His motivation is also much lower. Last year he had something to prove with his defensive game and rebounding from a terrible year, by his standards. He wanted to get respect back around the league as being an elite player, and he accomplished that.

Can't see it happening again.

again, what is the proof to this? did you talk to him? did someone tell you. You have motivational meter here? I see Geno skating hard every night, guy with somewhat diminishing faculties (speed skill) but I don't see the guy lost motivation. In contrary, I see the guy who wants to win the cup, everything he said and everything that is visible points to zero difference between Malkin's attitude at any point in his career

 

[AuroraBorealis]

how do you know this? Is this just with Zucker or thats how Geno has been (I don't know that but you seem to know) with everyone when he was great or not so great. Someone told you this or you can hear him demanding the puck or else.

Because I could see and hear it happening every game on my feed. I watch with headphones and having no crowds really clarifies what's going on. I could see Zucker with plans to penetrate the zone/defenses and gather speed and then suddenly changing course and reacting to Malkin and deferring, all over the ice. Zucker is not a pass-first guy by nature, like he played this year. He's just an extremely nice guy/great teammate who was more concerned about getting Malkin going than playing his game. Malkin exploited that characteristic, and it hurt both of them badly.

And then once Zucker's production started looking bad his confidence started diminishing. His clear thought process that we saw last year with Sid started turning into confusion and second guessing.

Look, this is not all on Geno at all. Don't want to make it sound like that. Zucker took a fair number of games off and that's on him. But I think Zucker would have been far more impactful if he was utilized the right way, starting from game 1 against the Flyers.

 

[vodeni]

No way. He'll have 1 year left on his deal which is better than Phil if you're worried about the long-term risk.

He's also a much better hockey player which everyone knows.

The one advantage of Phil vs. Malkin trade value wise is that his cash outlay was lower than his cap hit I think which is obviously relevant to a team like the Coyotes (and in 2+ years of <50% full arenas, relevant to all teams).

I'm not looking to trade Malkin, but he should get way more than Phil did.

right, I thought you said we would get the same...if Pens trade him now, they could get some really really good return...Teams are loaded with great skilled forwards that can drive plays, put Geno there and that team is contender

 

[ss53mech]

Except Zucker wasn't lifting anyone up, which was the entire problem.

He and Malkin were like oil and water, so whatever Zucker is in a vacuum, his talents have not been a good match and the 2nd line consistently looked out of sorts because of it. This team is not worse off for having lost Zucker, if we're talking purely on-ice terms and not asset value.

I advocated for Zucker and Guentzel to switch all year too, but it wasn't happening.

Please don't hate me for agruing minutia, but it's just my thing. Agree he and Malkin were not working well together. I think Malkin also needs to eat some of the blame there. I haven't seen any of his linemates not look out of sorts with him centering them. If Malkin is living up to expectations, maybe we are talking about how much we will miss Zucker's speed on that line.

Disagree that the on ice value didn't go down. Even just moving ZAR up, who has been outperforming most folks expectations, does take a little away from the 3rd line. So, I would say the second line might not be worse, but the team if only a little, is worse for it.

Might be a blessing in disguise though (trying to be positive) if McCann somehow works with geno and that line can get going again. I suspect we will have a significant amount of time to theorize about how to best utilize Zucker as an asset before his return.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Yeah, Zucker and Sid should've been tried.

With that never happening, Zucker really has no use here.

Inclined to agree but he should be tried with Blueger first if L1 is not an option. Also should be on PP1 on the right wall.

 

[EightyOne]

Well, you'd have to determine their Phylum before you can determine their classification

Lol you stupid bastards, this shit was hilarious... give me likes!!!!

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Inclined to agree but he should be tried with Blueger first if L1 is not an option. Also should be on PP1 on the right wall.

I suppose anything can be tried, but I've seen enough LH "maybes" fail miserably there to put any kind of faith in it.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Please don't hate me for agruing minutia, but it's just my thing. Agree he and Malkin were not working well together. I think Malkin also needs to eat some of the blame there. I haven't seen any of his linemates not look out of sorts with him centering them. If Malkin is living up to expectations, maybe we are talking about how much we will miss Zucker's speed on that line.

Disagree that the on ice value didn't go down. Even just moving ZAR up, who has been outperforming most folks expectations, does take a little away from the 3rd line. So, I would say the second line might not be worse, but the team if only a little, is worse for it.

Might be a blessing in disguise though (trying to be positive) if McCann somehow works with geno and that line can get going again. I suspect we will have a significant amount of time to theorize about how to best utilize Zucker as an asset before his return.

Frustrating part is that all of this could've been sorted out by switching Guentzel and Zucker. Then we could've seen Crosby thrive or struggle, and settle a few things.

The team did get slightly worse by moving ZAR off the 3rd line, but...it seems Zucker was going to be a Malkin regular come hell or high water if he was healthy, and something needed to change.

 

[ss53mech]

some good some not so good points. Solid effort from third line...is that just reflexive statement or you actually paid attention. They were bad, hemmed down most of the time fighting for the life with acritical mistake on Caps goal. Tannev was plain awful, with turnover after turnover.

First line was not even, it was below the line big time...Jake was bad lost just about every battle and looked weak. Redeemed himself with that awesome goal. Sid was just cruising, I focused on him and mid through the game looked like he lost interest. Kappy was really trying hard and was really driving most of their play.
Second line was our best line, which does not say much but still, kept it pretty even and created 3-4 great chances that should have been in three by Rust one ZAR and Geno had one

fourth, we agree....(not hard to agree on that one)

Anyways, its weird we can watch the game and see different things...

All fair interpretations. Admittedly, there were parts of the game I missed as I was cooking dinner while watching. For arguments sake most of my evaluation of a line or a given player is based on decisions and effort. I am a (very) low level player so I try to think if I was in the position would I make that play? I try not to base a players performance based off outcomes so much as percentage plays. Like there is a bunch of times where Sid makes a very low percentage play, with a very high reward likelihood if he connects. If that play happens deep (meaning low risk if it fails) or high in the zone or when they aren't set up (meaning high risk if it fails) is often the factors I apply. As the game progresses, I mentally compile good vs bad and use that to make a determination of whether a player played well.

Sorry for the long explanation, but that is how I look at games. If a player/line is making good choices and trying hard but the other team is countering it well or they just aren't connecting on their chances, I still give them a plus. Whereas, you concluded the second line was good, there was some egregious decision making going on that forced me to not like the way they were playing.

All of that to say, probably a good reason I'm not a coach.

 

[ss53mech]

Frustrating part is that all of this could've been sorted out by switching Guentzel and Zucker. Then we could've seen Crosby thrive or struggle, and settle a few things.

The team did get slightly worse by moving ZAR off the 3rd line, but...it seems Zucker was going to be a Malkin regular come hell or high water if he was healthy, and something needed to change.

For sure, the what if's are tough in this case.

 

[Bingo71]

And I’ll say it again, to hell with all these analytics and advanced stats. This team has trouble generating quality scoring chances because they have zero net front presence and refuse to shoot most nights. But then all these advanced stats show that they “dominated” the other team because they possessed the puck along the perimeter in the offensive zone for awhile before turning it over or having a shot from the point blocked...

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I suppose anything can be tried, but I've seen enough LH "maybes" fail miserably there to put any kind of faith in it.

Sid has owned that spot on the PP for most of his career. We don't really know how things would work with him being moved to the net-front. Zucker would have been good for our zone entries and simplification imo. For the record I also firmly believe Kap should replace Rust on the left.

When was the last time we've had a one-timer option on the right or left walls? Kessel certainly didn't do it. Rust isn't doing it. Crosby isn't doing it. Why can other teams have those options and we have to funnel everything through Malkin? Just playing into the opponent's hands with that level of predictability.

We can't break down coverage at all because we don't shoot when the PK's are on the run.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

And I’ll say it again, to hell with all these analytics and advanced stats. This team has trouble generating quality scoring chances because they have zero net front presence and refuse to shoot most nights. But then all these advanced stats show that they “dominated” the other team because they possessed the puck along the perimeter in the offensive zone for awhile before turning it over or having a shot from the point blocked...

Absolutely the case. On the PP, if you gave Phil any ice at all he'd drive as far to the net as he could and fire wrist shots. If you shaded to his side, he'd set someone up. PH drew bodies and clogged up the middle.

We dumped these aspects to our PP (and our team), didn't replace them, and now the PP sucks when we need to rely on it.

What did anyone including the Pens think was going to happen?

 

[Angrrus]

Their cap hits are pretty much in line with what they are producing tbh.

The issue is those cap hits used to be steals, now they are becoming fair value for what they are bringing.

I'm not so sure about that.

IMO, Sid is still keeping himself afloat this season, at least statictically, even despite his atrocious start of the season, and honestly the number of games where he is a non-factor, both optically and statistically, is shamefully big.

But to call the clown show that Malkin and Letang are this season (although frankly whole Letang's career has been a non-stop clown show) a "fair value" - is a sugar coating of biblical proportions as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Angrrus]

I have to assume the Tuesday game didn't happen in your universe. You know the one where two of those players combined for a nice PPG. Geno was feeling it, and Sid's line dominated possession and attempts. These players aren't without flaws and inconsistencies, but to dump on them for last night is just as disingenuous as to ignore their performance 48 hours prior. They might not be living up to their historical precedents but we aren't talking about useless players here.

I pointed out in one of my posts today that they are taking every other night off. If you think this is ok, if you that we must expect them to sdhow up only in 50% of games for the amount of cap space they are eating - then I'm speechless, I don't know what else to say to you.

 

[Pens x]

Absolutely the case. On the PP, if you gave Phil any ice at all he'd drive as far to the net as he could and fire wrist shots. If you shaded to his side, he'd set someone up. PH drew bodies and clogged up the middle.

We dumped these aspects to our PP (and our team), didn't replace them, and now the PP sucks when we need to rely on it.

What did anyone including the Pens think was going to happen?

JR never really thought that far ahead. He was playing checkers when he should have been playing chess.

 

[Angrrus]

Go root for another f***ing team if they piss you off so much.

I started rooting for Pens when Crosby and Malkin were toddlers yet. They are not the reason I root for this team and this franchise. So if they are letting the franchise and all the fans down with their lazy entitled attitude - it's them who need to go f... themselves. They must just retire if they don't feel they have it in them anymore.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Absolutely the case. On the PP, if you gave Phil any ice at all he'd drive as far to the net as he could and fire wrist shots. If you shaded to his side, he'd set someone up. PH drew bodies and clogged up the middle.

We dumped these aspects to our PP (and our team), didn't replace them, and now the PP sucks when we need to rely on it.

What did anyone including the Pens think was going to happen?

Exactly. Now PK's don't even have to guess. They know.

Why is Washington's so successful?

- Ovechkin moves around the flank and is the greatest shooter of all time
- Carlson has a much better shot than Letang, releases quickly and is better at finding lanes
- They use Oshie extremely effectively, with him fading away from coverage in that bumper slot. This season he's on the left wall, being a right shot. One-timer option.
- Backstrom is a much higher percentage passer than Sid on the PP. Now that he's shooting more this season, that's yet another option.
- They're using Vrana, who isn't gun shy either.
- They rotate more and move their feet
- Nobody apart from Backstrom holds the puck longer than our guys do.
- They have better net-front.

Washington is at 32% despite Ovechkin only having 2 PPG's. Beyond personnel, they just know how to deploy their weapons. We don't.

 

[The Old Master]

I just want to say one simple thing... GRAB A f***ING STICK when your stick breaks. In the first or third period you are so close to your bench. Stop being a f***ing idiot.

i've been hard on sully this year but that just shows' how much father this @#$%^ goes. this is stuff that every one of those players knows. you can't keep this stuff up. we are wasting spots on the bench where there should be players sitting.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Exactly. Now PK's don't even have to guess. They know.

Why is Washington's so successful?

- Ovechkin moves around the flank and is the greatest shooter of all time
- Carlson has a much better shot than Letang, releases quickly and is better at finding lanes
- They use Oshie extremely effectively, with him fading away from coverage in that bumper slot. This season he's on the left wall, being a right shot. One-timer option.
- Backstrom is a much higher percentage passer than Sid on the PP. Now that he's shooting more this season, that's yet another option.
- They're using Vrana, who isn't gun shy either.
- They rotate more and move their feet
- Nobody apart from Backstrom holds the puck longer than our guys do.
- They have better net-front.

Washington is at 32% despite Ovechkin only having 2 PPG's. Beyond personnel, they just know how to deploy their weapons. We don't.

To their credit, their GM acquired the proper skillsets, and kept them. As an aging team, they can rely on their PP to win games.

If we turn back the clock, fire JR after the Islander's meltdown, bring in new people who sit down Geno, Sid, and Phil and say:

-Sid, you're playing with PH, he does your dirty work, and you're getting a few more D zone assignments. Oh, and Jake is rotating to Geno to shake things up now and again
-Geno, you're getting some more D zone assignments, and we're getting you a Hagelin/Tanev to handle the dirty work. You're getting Jake sometimes, and Rust full time.
-Phil, everyone else is making sacrifices, we're getting you a shooting center like McCann, you're our PPQB, and you're playing with Geno in OT and making people look stupid

Then ya know, a lot of problems with this team are solved, at least for a year or two so we could have made some runs. This stuff is all on management and coaching to motivate and put these stars in a position to succeed. That's the job in Pittsburgh.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Sid has owned that spot on the PP for most of his career. We don't really know how things would work with him being moved to the net-front. Zucker would have been good for our zone entries and simplification imo. For the record I also firmly believe Kap should replace Rust on the left.

So Zucker would not only join the #1PP, but take over Crosby's spot?

Zucker, who never scored more than 16 PP points in a season?

See, this is the problem in thinking an LH shot is going to help our PP. If we were going to move Crosby for anyone it should have been Galchenyuk, who's historically been a lot better than Zucker on the PP. But honestly, he isn't good enough to warrant moving Crosby either.

When was the last time we've had a one-timer option on the right or left walls? Kessel certainly didn't do it. Rust isn't doing it. Crosby isn't doing it. Why can other teams have those options and we have to funnel everything through Malkin? Just playing into the opponent's hands with that level of predictability.

We can't break down coverage at all because we don't shoot when the PK's are on the run.

It'd be great to have a one-timer option but it's not going to happen with Zucker in Crosby's spot, but more importantly, even if we did move Zucker there we still wouldn't have anyone competent on the left half wall. Round and round we go.

We can't break down coverage because there's an entire side of the ice that the team can't exploit properly.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

right, I thought you said we would get the same...if Pens trade him now, they could get some really really good return...Teams are loaded with great skilled forwards that can drive plays, put Geno there and that team is contender

Not going to happen so why are you talking this nonsense?

Ownership already said Crosby and Malkin are staying as long as they want to be here. Used to these Malkin trade threads for years from outsiders but some of our own fans have no clue about what's going on.