Post-Game Talk: Pens vs. Caps for the 80th time

[ss53mech]

Biggest issue is we dedicate 25,7 mln of cap space to three players who produce jack crap and regularly let the team down when they are supposed to lift it up.

I have to assume the Tuesday game didn't happen in your universe. You know the one where two of those players combined for a nice PPG. Geno was feeling it, and Sid's line dominated possession and attempts. These players aren't without flaws and inconsistencies, but to dump on them for last night is just as disingenuous as to ignore their performance 48 hours prior. They might not be living up to their historical precedents but we aren't talking about useless players here.

 

[Trade]

This is starting to look like 2018-19 Geno, minus all the production. I think it’s a foregone conclusion we’ll try McCann-Geno-Rust first which could be decent. But with Zucker likely out longer term - the more I think about it, the more enticing a roster as followed looks:

Jake-Sid-Kap
Geno-Blueger-Rust
ZAR-McCann-Tanev

 

[ss53mech]

The Pens weren't very good even when they had them, and the holes were just as apparent.

Zucker honestly isn't even a big loss for the Pens given how they were using him. I'm no ZAR fan, but it's not like he represents a downgrade there based on performance.

What sucks is that Zucker was really the only chance that the Pens had to fix the top 6 internally. If there were ever any hope that Guentzel could leave Crosby's hip for a minute, it evaporated when Zucker went down.

I have to kind of disagree. Zucker wasn't producing like this team needs him to if they are going to win most games. But, i really feel like his effort has been good all season. And weather we like it or not, in most team sports that has value. It lifts other players up a bit when their linemates hustle with and for them. I have felt all season that zucker should go with sid for a bit just to see if guentz could rekindle the geno magic. But that isn't an option now. Regardless of of production, zucker makes opposing defenses react instead of executing their planned breakouts. Those little details do a world of good for centers trying to break up transition.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Flaws =/= suck.

Kessel provides a skillset that we, as owners of the 25th best PP in the league, could desperately use. He'd be worth a helluva lot more than Zucker, who does nothing for this team despite being "good defensively".

But since we won't get Kessel back, we need to finally come to grips with replacing his skillset, and getting rid of those who don't contribute anything.

This is the issue in a nut shell, and JR's big flaw late in his tenure. He lost focus on any kind of coherent plan or on filling certain roles, but instead picked a random guy, and then moved heaven and earth to get him. When's the last time we made a trade for actual fit? To rip off Family Guy, this is easier than we're making it.

After the Islanders fiasco, he should have just retired, and let some fresh eyes take a look at the whole thing. The problems then were solvable with some new direction in management and possibly a new coach or assistants.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yes losing Phil Kessel is definitely the reason why we aren't doing better and we would be a better team with him.

Lol.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I have to kind of disagree. Zucker wasn't producing like this team needs him to if they are going to win most games. But, i really feel like his effort has been good all season. And weather we like it or not, in most team sports that has value. It lifts other players up a bit when their linemates hustle with and for them. I have felt all season that zucker should go with sid for a bit just to see if guentz could rekindle the geno magic. But that isn't an option now. Regardless of of production, zucker makes opposing defenses react instead of executing their planned breakouts. Those little details do a world of good for centers trying to break up transition.

Except Zucker wasn't lifting anyone up, which was the entire problem.

He and Malkin were like oil and water, so whatever Zucker is in a vacuum, his talents have not been a good match and the 2nd line consistently looked out of sorts because of it. This team is not worse off for having lost Zucker, if we're talking purely on-ice terms and not asset value.

I advocated for Zucker and Guentzel to switch all year too, but it wasn't happening.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

This is the issue in a nut shell, and JR's big flaw late in his tenure. He lost focus on any kind of coherent plan or on filling certain roles, but instead picked a random guy, and then moved heaven and earth to get him. When's the last time we made a trade for actual fit? To rip off Family Guy, this is easier than we're making it.

After the Islanders fiasco, he should have just retired, and let some fresh eyes take a look at the whole thing. The problems then were solvable with some new direction in management and possibly a new coach or assistants.

100%

 

[TNT87]

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Except Zucker wasn't lifting anyone up, which was the entire problem.

He and Malkin were like oil and water, so whatever Zucker is in a vacuum, his talents have not been a good match and the 2nd line consistently looked out of sorts because of it. This team is not worse off for having lost Zucker, if we're talking purely on-ice terms and not asset value.

I advocated for Zucker and Guentzel to switch all year too, but it wasn't happening.

We all knew this was never happening, which is one reason I didn't want Zucker in the first place. We'd be better off having kept Pearson and retaining all the assets. Or keeping Kahun. Or trying McCann or Tanev with Geno. And all of those guys are younger and either in their prime or closer to it than Zucker, and we had them on our roster for free at one time or another.

The current situation is like Steve Sullivan light but for a 1st round pick+ instead of as a cheap FA.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I'm taking another break from the board. Except for the core's greatest moments thread. I have no idea what game people are watching and the threads are so bad it's not worth it. The takes have never been so wrong and childish. People are spoiled and just don't know hockey that well. The good posters have not been around and aren't posting, and the board has been taken over by crying kids. At least that's what the quality of the writing suggests.

Suggesting trading a core piece is not "crying" or childlike behavior. I just think it would help at this current time. Don't try to censor people just because they see the team differently than you.

And you also don't know if it's a terrible take until you've witnessed the results it could bring. Nobody on this board knows. You're just guessing and getting emotional over attachment to a player.

But by all means, take a break if you're so delicate that you can't handle strong, contrasting opinions about the team.

 

[Beauner]

Edited.

Go root for another f***ing team if they piss you off so much.

 

[vodeni]

Can't say I'm surprised by the team or some of the (hot) takes.

The team wasn't magically fixed after a very good showing Tuesday, nor are the magically beyond repair with a dismal effort last night.

I was hoping Malkin's confidence would continue, but it really didn't. He looked even worse than usual. I do wonder if there is more going on there than we know. This inconsistency in effort and execution can't reasonably be explained by age based decline. Not sure if it's emotional, physical or spiritual but Geno isn't himself. I hope whatever it is, the real Russian Machine comes back to us soon.

I thought Sid's line was overall even, some very good individual plays but they weren't working well as a unit. Jake's goal was a beauty though, even if a bit lucky. Seems reasonable that the Caps coaching staff put some adjustments in after that line dominated Tuesday. With this weird schedule coaching staff's will need to play little series battles vs other teams and make continuous adjustments. I think they ebbed out the Pens in that one last night.

Second line overall was dysfunctional but with a new addition and a very lackluster Malkin, that's what I expected.

Third line did all you could reasonably expect, another solid effort from them.

the fourth.... well, I'm not going to go as far as some, but they did overall disappoint. I think now is the appropriate juncture for the front office to inform these folks that they are gone as soon as they find a suitable replacement if they don't step it up.

Defense was good and bad. A few bad reads but overall good transistion. i won't hold the Oshie goal against them, that was a phenomenal effort on Oshie's part. As they say, sometimes the other guy is just better.

Jarry was again good, but his opposition was a bit better. That is mostly due to context. He wasn't given as much of a chance to look good. The caps chances looked either harmless or nearly unstoppable with comparatively few just dangerous shots. he certainly didn't lose the game, but he didn't steal it either.

I don't think this team as constructed is going to come together and become a dominant force in the division, but if they clean up some of the mistakes and a few players get their heads back on straight, they can compete with anyone in it.

some good some not so good points. Solid effort from third line...is that just reflexive statement or you actually paid attention. They were bad, hemmed down most of the time fighting for the life with acritical mistake on Caps goal. Tannev was plain awful, with turnover after turnover.

First line was not even, it was below the line big time...Jake was bad lost just about every battle and looked weak. Redeemed himself with that awesome goal. Sid was just cruising, I focused on him and mid through the game looked like he lost interest. Kappy was really trying hard and was really driving most of their play.
Second line was our best line, which does not say much but still, kept it pretty even and created 3-4 great chances that should have been in three by Rust one ZAR and Geno had one

fourth, we agree....(not hard to agree on that one)

Anyways, its weird we can watch the game and see different things...

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Except Zucker wasn't lifting anyone up, which was the entire problem.

He and Malkin were like oil and water, so whatever Zucker is in a vacuum, his talents have not been a good match and the 2nd line consistently looked out of sorts because of it. This team is not worse off for having lost Zucker, if we're talking purely on-ice terms and not asset value.

I advocated for Zucker and Guentzel to switch all year too, but it wasn't happening.

Except Malkin is to blame even more than Zucker for their collective failures. Calling for the puck every time Zucker gets possession regardless of how inopportune the situation or position on the ice. That's minor league behavior. Effectively neutered his skating and shot, and confidence/motivation because of it.

Not gonna claim that Zucker played well. He didn't. But he would have been a lot better with Sid or even Blueger.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Suggesting trading a core piece is not "crying" or childlike behavior. I just think it would help at this current time. Don't try to censor people just because they see the team differently than you.

And you also don't know if it's a terrible take until you've witnessed the results it could bring. Nobody on this board knows. You're just guessing and getting emotional over attachment to a player.

But by all means, take a break if you're so delicate that you can't handle strong, contrasting opinions about the team.

I don't think they'd get enough back for Malkin to justify trading him.

That said this poster has a Malkin persecution complex and it's really annoying. How hard is it to say "hey this is a guy that looks every bit of 34 years old, he's declining pretty fast and he hasn't even been a good 2C this year or in '18-'19."

I dunno. I love Malkin and I want him to be the one carrying us but it's looking increasingly like it ain't happening.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I don't think they'd get enough back for Malkin to justify trading him.

That said this poster has a Malkin persecution complex and it's really annoying. How hard is it to say "hey this is a guy that looks every bit of 34 years old, he's declining pretty fast and he hasn't even been a good 2C this year or in '18-'19."

I dunno. I love Malkin and I want him to be the one carrying us but it's looking increasingly like it ain't happening.

Maybe. Maybe not. We don't know what his reaction would be to management bringing it up to him. The whole "he would only accept Florida because of his housing/family" is just guesswork by this board. Nobody actually knows what teams he would be willing to go to.

Seen a lot of shocking trades over the last few years. Look at what Columbus got for Dubois. Roslovic alone is at 12 points in 14 games right now.

Malkin's old, yes. But people on this board claiming that he would net the same return dealing Kessel got seems extremely unlikely to me. He's a Center, for one. You saw how much the Jets valued that recently. Secondly he is much more highly regarded around the league and by other GM's. Thirdly, people are overestimating the intelligence/planning of a lot of GM's and their advising teams. The whole trade process is not nearly as intricate as people believe. It's often done very quickly over the course of 1 or 2 short phone calls and a few quick notifications to the management team. You hear GM's talk about how "quickly things came together" all the time after trades.

I'm not suggesting he HAS to be traded. If the offer is shit you don't pull the trigger. But I think it should be explored thoroughly. May be surprised by the results. A lot of desperate teams out there.

 

[LOGiK]

Maybe. Maybe not. We don't know what his reaction would be to management bringing it up to him. The whole "he would only accept Florida because of his housing/family" is just guesswork by this board. Nobody actually knows what teams he would be willing to go to.

Seen a lot of shocking trades over the last few years. Look at what Columbus got for Dubois. Roslovic alone is at 12 points in 14 games right now.

Malkin's old, yes. But people on this board claiming that he would net the same return dealing Kessel got seems extremely unlikely to me. He's a Center, for one. You saw how much the Jets valued that recently. Secondly he is much more highly regarded around the league and by other GM's. Thirdly, people are overestimating the intelligence/planning of a lot of GM's and their advising teams. The whole trade process is not nearly as intricate as people believe. It's often done very quickly over the course of 1 or 2 short phone calls and a few quick notifications to the management team. You hear GM's talk about how "quickly things came together" all the time after trades.

I'm not suggesting he HAS to be traded. If the offer is shit you don't pull the trigger. But I think it should be explored thoroughly. May be surprised by the results. A lot of desperate teams out there.

Would the penguins be in that classification?

 

[ChaosAgent]

Maybe. Maybe not. We don't know what his reaction would be to management bringing it up to him. The whole "he would only accept Florida because of his housing/family" is just guesswork by this board. Nobody actually knows what teams he would be willing to go to.

Seen a lot of shocking trades over the last few years. Look at what Columbus got for Dubois. Roslovic alone is at 12 points in 14 games right now.

Malkin's old, yes. But people on this board claiming that he would net the same return dealing Kessel got seems extremely unlikely to me. He's a Center, for one. You saw how much the Jets valued that recently. Secondly he is much more highly regarded around the league and by other GM's. Thirdly, people are overestimating the intelligence/planning of a lot of GM's and their advising teams. The whole trade process is not nearly as intricate as people believe. It's often done very quickly over the course of 1 or 2 short phone calls and a few quick notifications to the management team. You hear GM's talk about how "quickly things came together" all the time after trades.

I'm not suggesting he HAS to be traded. If the offer is shit you don't pull the trigger. But I think it should be explored thoroughly. May be surprised by the results. A lot of desperate teams out there.

I think he'd get more than what Kessel got, but he's in the tier where you have the conversation first. I still think our best chance this year is for Malkin to find whatever he had last year.

I think at some point next year, if it keeps going the way it is you broach talks about an extension but for something like 3/$18M. If he balks at that, then you start exploring the trade.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Except Malkin is to blame even more than Zucker for their collective failures. Calling for the puck every time Zucker gets possession regardless of how inopportune the situation or position on the ice. That's minor league behavior. Effectively neutered his skating and shot, and confidence/motivation because of it.

Not gonna claim that Zucker played well. He didn't. But he would have been a lot better with Sid or even Blueger.

We're not here to appease Zucker. Malkin working is a lot more important to the team, and Crosby not working with Zucker ever again once Guentzel rejoined the team speaks volumes.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Would the penguins be in that classification?

Not yet, no. Maybe management won't be at all this year. Hextall is extremely new, careful and is not known for making big moves. But the clock is ticking, and it's a short season.

My impression is that Hextall and Burke aren't willing to go all-in this season. They're just waiting to see what we got and hoping, while making a few secondary moves perhaps. In the summer they'll make the hard decisions.

But right now this team isn't anywhere close to contention imo. They're mediocre. A lot of dependency on overtime. Special teams are 25th or lower in both categories. 2nd line is largely a non factor. 1st line has great analytics but don't really have anything close to the explosive production we need.

Do you see any timeline in which the Pens could eliminate Boston? If the answer is no and you're serious about this year, then you have to change something integral to make us more dangerous IMO. And if they're unwilling to go deep then I don't see the point of rolling the status quo. Like why? To weasel into the playoffs and get taken out in the 1st or 2nd round? May as well sell now in that case. Waste of time for the organization.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

I think he'd get more than what Kessel got, but he's in the tier where you have the conversation first. I still think our best chance this year is for Malkin to find whatever he had last year.

I think at some point next year, if it keeps going the way it is you broach talks about an extension but for something like 3/$18M. If he balks at that, then you start exploring the trade.

Won't hold my breath on that. His conditioning isn't anywhere close to last year's, by his own admission. His motivation is also much lower. Last year he had something to prove with his defensive game and rebounding from a terrible year, by his standards. He wanted to get respect back around the league as being an elite player, and he accomplished that.

Can't see it happening again.

 

[Pancakes]

Not yet, no. Maybe management won't be at all this year. Hextall is extremely new, careful and is not known for making big moves. But the clock is ticking, and it's a short season.

My impression is that Hextall and Burke aren't willing to go all-in this season. They're just waiting to see what we got and hoping, while making a few secondary moves perhaps. In the summer they'll make the hard decisions.

But right now this team isn't anywhere close to contention imo. They're mediocre. A lot of dependency on overtime. Special teams are 25th or lower in both categories. 2nd line is largely a non factor. 1st line has great analytics but don't really have anything close to the explosive production we need.

Do you see any timeline in which the Pens could eliminate Boston? If the answer is no and you're serious about this year, then you have to change something integral to make us more dangerous IMO. And if they're unwilling to go deep then I don't see the point of rolling the status quo. Like why? To weasel into the playoffs and get taken out in the 1st or 2nd round? May as well sell now in that case. Waste of time for the organization.

I don't see a deep playoff run in us. The goaltending is too shitty, and Malkin isn't Malkin.

It's a tough conversation for Hextall/Burke this off season. This team isn't a minor tweak or two away from being a contender. And it might not even possible to make it one. Before he got hired Burke said our window was closed no matter what we did and he might be right. If Geno and Sid have declined enough, the window slams closed. And while Sid looks good analytically there's not a ton of production, and Malkin apart from his recent uptick in play has looked plain bad.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I don't see a deep playoff run in us. The goaltending is too shitty, and Malkin isn't Malkin.

It's a tough conversation for Hextall/Burke this off season. This team isn't a minor tweak or two away from being a contender. And it might not even possible to make it one. Before he got hired Burke said our window was closed no matter what we did and he might be right. If Geno and Sid have declined enough, the window slams closed. And while Sid looks good analytically there's not a ton of production, and Malkin apart from his recent uptick in play has looked plain bad.

Your truth-telling hurts me I'm going to go to the core appreciation thread you crying child!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[EightyOne]

Would the penguins be in that classification?

Well, you'd have to determine their Phylum before you can determine their classification

 

[vodeni]

Except Malkin is to blame even more than Zucker for their collective failures. Calling for the puck every time Zucker gets possession regardless of how inopportune the situation or position on the ice. That's minor league behavior. Effectively neutered his skating and shot, and confidence/motivation because of it.

Not gonna claim that Zucker played well. He didn't. But he would have been a lot better with Sid or even Blueger.

how do you know this? Is this just with Zucker or thats how Geno has been (I don't know that but you seem to know) with everyone when he was great or not so great. Someone told you this or you can hear him demanding the puck or else.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

We're not here to appease Zucker. Malkin working is a lot more important to the team, and Crosby not working with Zucker ever again once Guentzel rejoined the team speaks volumes.

Agree with all of that, and never said anything to the contrary.

I just think people need to be more understanding of the position Zuck was put in before they slam him too hard. Him also not being tried on PP1 was pretty lame from Sullivan. One of the best shots in our arsenal and we didn't even get to test it there. Ours is one of the worst in the NHL, and BY FAR the worst in terms of expected production relative to talent level.

Guentzel-Sid being attached at the hip only tells me that Sullivan has preset pairs in his mind, and he's too worried about appeasing Sid by giving him someone he enjoys playing with. Sullivan is his bitch basically. Doesn't tell me anything about their potential chemistry.