Post-Game Talk: Pens 0, Caps 13

[AjaxTelamon]

Throwing Bennett in with those three as if they're four peas in a pod makes me shake my head. He doesn't do a single thing on a similar level to any of them, but he's similarly important?

His footspeed is an issue. His strength is an issue. His defense is a major issue. His quickness is another, major issue. And his production is not anywhere near good enough to ignore those four things, which also happen to be team issues that look likely to get us bounced in the first round unless we wildcard into the Atlantic division.

To put this in perspective, Bennett comes in tied for #6 among our wings in per game production. That's comfortably behind Steve Downie--a guy whose job is to be a bottom six sideshow, not score--and a hair higher than Sutter. The guy he's tied with, Spaling, is a much more reliable two-way player. For a guy that does nothing outside of produce, this is a big problem.

His "looks good with Malkin" has resulted in a lot of counter-clockwise circles around the outside of the offensive zone and exactly half the production that Downie put up in his near-identical 83 minutes in a top six role. Only the second thing is important. This isn't Perron he's coming up short as a scorer against--it's freaking Downie.

At Bennett's age, Hornqvist had 30 goals. Downie 22. Dupuis 20. Perron and Comeau, roughly 20 in 60 games a piece. Bennett's pacing for 12 or lower in every season of his career. That's the same as Matt Cooke for God's sake, minus any of the other stuff Cooke does. It's time to quit having fantasies that Bennett might be Marian Hossa and start recognizing patterns.

I can't recall a less effective player that people somehow tried to classify as a member of our "core." In terms of overall contributions, Bennett compares unfavorably to Sutter and very unfavorably to Comeau, both now and when they were his age. His name should never be in the same sentence as Quinn, let alone Crosby, Malkin or Letang.

If Sutter "can't be untouchable" there is no reason Bennett can be. Not one. That "his value's low" doesn't mean it's going to be higher. Another season like the last two and it'll be quite a bit lower, actually.

It must be a combination of being such a high draft pick and playing a pretty to look at style of hockey, but for some reason BB has been anointed on these boards as our top 6 savior, specifically Malkin's wingman of the future. I don't see it. And as you point out, there is zero production to substantiate that kind of optimism. All of this not even considering his lack of ability to stay healthy.

If BB can play with Sutter and somehow make him into an effective player, then all of us should just be thrilled and take that deal. Because he's not a top 6 winger at this point in terms of his production.

I'm more optimistic Sundqvist can and should be a better right winger for Geno next year, and his game may be more well rounded than BB's is right now. And he's got a bigger frame, is a righty, and goes to the high value ice. All great for Geno.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Throwing Bennett in with those three as if they're four peas in a pod makes me shake my head. He doesn't do a single thing on a similar level to any of them, but he's similarly important?

His footspeed is an issue. His strength is an issue. His defense is a major issue. His quickness is another, major issue. And his production is not anywhere near good enough to ignore those four things, which also happen to be team issues that look likely to get us bounced in the first round unless we wildcard into the Atlantic division.

To put this in perspective, Bennett comes in tied for #6 among our wings in per game production. That's comfortably behind Steve Downie--a guy whose job is to be a bottom six sideshow, not score--and a hair higher than Sutter. The guy he's tied with, Spaling, is a much more reliable two-way player. For a guy that does nothing outside of produce, this is a big problem.

His "looks good with Malkin" has resulted in a lot of counter-clockwise circles around the outside of the offensive zone and exactly half the production that Downie put up in his near-identical 83 minutes in a top six role. Only the second thing is important. This isn't Perron he's coming up short as a scorer against--it's freaking Downie.

At Bennett's age, Hornqvist had 30 goals. Downie 22. Dupuis 20. Perron and Comeau, roughly 20 in 60 games a piece. Bennett's pacing for 12 or lower in every season of his career. That's the same as Matt Cooke for God's sake, minus any of the other stuff Cooke does. It's time to quit having fantasies that Bennett might be Marian Hossa and start recognizing patterns.

I can't recall a less effective player that people somehow tried to classify as a member of our "core." In terms of overall contributions, Bennett compares unfavorably to Sutter and very unfavorably to Comeau, both now and when they were his age. His name should never be in the same sentence as Quinn, let alone Crosby, Malkin or Letang.

If Sutter "can't be untouchable" there is no reason Bennett can be. Not one. That "his value's low" doesn't mean it's going to be higher. Another season like the last two and it'll be quite a bit lower, actually.

This has nothing to do with BB being part of the core and everything to do with org weaknesses and current value. It's literally common sense.

On a team that has a dearth of wing prospects, and exactly one skilled winger on the big club, dealing BB for his current value is the height of stupidity. If his value somehow gets lower next season and beyond, that risk is well worth taking considering his talent.

There is not a single realistic trade you or anyone else on this board could propose that would bring back the value of what a healthy BB brings to this team.

You can try to criticize what BB does with Malkin, but he consistently generates chances for a guy who once potted 50 goals, and helps his line maintain puck possession. This narrative they keep the puck outside and nothing ever comes of it is such BS that I can't help but roll my eyes. BB is a set up man and I told people that over and before he came into the league. He isn't going to be a 30 goal guy. If Spaling and Malkin are blowing their chances, he isn't going to rack up points. He sure as hell helped generate enough chances for those two and that's exactly what he does. Him having a three game slump doesn't change how he looked with Malkin.

The reality is, BB and Malkin are showing a lot more chemistry than Perron and Crosby. Yet no one sees this. Why?

Agendas I guess. The dirty little secret I keep pointing out is that Perron is looking good because he is good, not because of Crosby.

 

[gordie]

This has nothing to do with BB being part of the core and everything to do with org weaknesses and current value. It's literally common sense.

On a team that has a dearth of wing prospects, and exactly one skilled winger on the big club, dealing BB for his current value is the height of stupidity. If his value somehow gets lower next season and beyond, that risk is well worth taking considering his talent.

There is not a single realistic trade you or anyone else on this board could propose that would bring back the value of what a healthy BB brings to this team.

You can try to criticize what BB does with Malkin, but he consistently generates chances for a guy who once potted 50 goals, and helps his line maintain puck possession. This narrative they keep the puck outside and nothing ever comes of it is such BS that I can't help but roll my eyes. BB is a set up man and I told people that over and before he came into the league. He isn't going to be a 30 goal guy. If Spaling and Malkin are blowing their chances, he isn't going to rack up points. He sure as hell helped generate enough chances for those two and that's exactly what he does. Him having a three game slump doesn't change how he looked with Malkin.

The reality is, BB and Malkin are showing a lot more chemistry than Perron and Crosby. Yet no one sees this. Why?

Agendas I guess. The dirty little secret I keep pointing out is that Perron is looking good because he is good, not because of Crosby.

You're right about Bennett + Malkin showing more.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Agendas I guess. The dirty little secret I keep pointing out is that Perron is looking good because he is good, not because of Crosby.

That shouldn't be a secret at this point. His best game of the year was on Tuesday without Crosby.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

I wish the Penguins would utilize Malkin on the pp the same way the caps do Ovechkin when he comes back. Ovechkin is their best shooter so his job is to fire one-timers from the left circle. Why not just have Malkin sit in the right circle and shoot? Every team does this with their best shooter. Don't see why the Pens don't.

 

[WayneSid9987]

That shouldn't be a secret at this point. His best game of the year was on Tuesday without Crosby.

Which was also a game where the Jets tried pounding on the Pens all night. Letang in particular. It's really no wonder, they didn't have alot of gas last night against the Caps.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

That shouldn't be a secret at this point. His best game of the year was on Tuesday without Crosby.

You can't draw any meaningful conclusions based on a one game sample. For that matter Perron hasn't been here long enough to draw any conclusions whatsoever.

 

[Pens1566]

You can't draw any meaningful conclusions based on a one game sample. For that matter Perron hasn't been here long enough to draw any conclusions whatsoever.

I think you can say he was a good pickup.

 

[gordie]

I wish the Penguins would utilize Malkin on the pp the same way the caps do Ovechkin when he comes back. Ovechkin is their best shooter so his job is to fire one-timers from the left circle. Why not just have Malkin sit in the right circle and shoot? Every team does this with their best shooter. Don't see why the Pens don't.

They won't because of the Crosby and Malkin schism on the PP. Yesterday was a rarity where Crosby super fan Mark Madden actually criticized Crosby for his lack of patience when playing on the PP. He probably heard that from someone in the organization at Consol on Tuesday against the Jets.

 

[Winger for Hire]

You can't draw any meaningful conclusions based on a one game sample. For that matter Perron hasn't been here long enough to draw any conclusions whatsoever.

But he's been in the league long enough to say that he's one of the more talented players in the league.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

But he's been in the league long enough to say that he's one of the more talented players in the league.

I'm not saying he's not really talented. What I am saying is thay you can't conclude that the success he's had with Sid thus far has nothing to do with chemistry.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I'm not saying he's not really talented. What I am saying is thay you can't conclude that the success he's had with Sid thus far has nothing to do with chemistry.

I have no idea where this is going anymore.

 

[gopens66]

A couple of points based on the last few pages:

At this point in the season in '09, the Pens were not in a playoff spot.

As for Johnston's system, I like it way better than Byslma's "system".
I believe, when played well, is tailor made for a player like Malkin, a center who likes/excells at bringing the puck up ice with speed.
I think a real issue is Bylsma's system was in place for 5 years, and it takes time and experience to read pressure and support the puck-carrier effectively. They have literally been throwing the puck hard at the other end of the ice 90% of the time for the past 5 years.

The power play should have Hornqvist-net, Crosby-slot/behind net, Malkin right half-wall, Perron left half-wall, Letang/Erhoff at the point and umbrella that ****.

 

[BobCole]

A couple of points based on the last few pages:

At this point in the season in '09, the Pens were not in a playoff spot.

As for Johnston's system, I like it way better than Byslma's "system".
I believe, when played well, is tailor made for a player like Malkin, a center who likes/excells at bringing the puck up ice with speed.
I think a real issue is Bylsma's system was in place for 5 years, and it takes time and experience to read pressure and support the puck-carrier effectively. They have literally been throwing the puck hard at the other end of the ice 90% of the time for the past 5 years.

The power play should have Hornqvist-net, Crosby-slot/behind net, Malkin right half-wall, Perron left half-wall, Letang/Erhoff at the point and umbrella that ****.

Agree with all of this.

Re: the PP. How do you have a unit struggling so badly and not *try* the umbrella setup (manned exactly as you stated)? It's maddening watching the current unit suck the life out of our team so often.

 

[gordie]

As far as the PP and Crosby. I like Crosby playing the point with a defenseman and Geno down low but high enough so as to get off a big shot if the opposition gives it to them. I would really prefer Crosby on one PP and Malkin on the other but that won't be happening any time soon.

 

[Winger for Hire]

As far as the PP and Crosby. I like Crosby playing the point with a defenseman and Geno down low but high enough so as to get off a big shot if the opposition gives it to them. I would really prefer Crosby on one PP and Malkin on the other but that won't be happening any time soon.

Sid would be wasted on the point.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Sid would be wasted on the point.

He has similar attributes to Kariya, who was a magician on the PP point. It also has the added benefit of keeping Crosby from getting banged around down low.

I have no idea why they haven't experimented with it beyond one game a couple of years back.

 

[Winger for Hire]

He has similar attributes to Kariya, who was a magician on the PP point. It also has the added benefit of keeping Crosby from getting banged around down low.

I have no idea why they haven't experimented with it beyond one game a couple of years back.

He would be magic on the point

EDIT- I just don't think his shot plays well out on the point.

 

[billybudd]

This has nothing to do with BB being part of the core and everything to do with org weaknesses and current value. It's literally common sense.

On a team that has a dearth of wing prospects, and exactly one skilled winger on the big club, dealing BB for his current value is the height of stupidity. If his value somehow gets lower next season and beyond, that risk is well worth taking considering his talent.

There is not a single realistic trade you or anyone else on this board could propose that would bring back the value of what a healthy BB brings to this team.

You can try to criticize what BB does with Malkin, but he consistently generates chances for a guy who once potted 50 goals, and helps his line maintain puck possession. This narrative they keep the puck outside and nothing ever comes of it is such BS that I can't help but roll my eyes. BB is a set up man and I told people that over and before he came into the league. He isn't going to be a 30 goal guy. If Spaling and Malkin are blowing their chances, he isn't going to rack up points. He sure as hell helped generate enough chances for those two and that's exactly what he does. Him having a three game slump doesn't change how he looked with Malkin.

The reality is, BB and Malkin are showing a lot more chemistry than Perron and Crosby. Yet no one sees this. Why?

Agendas I guess. The dirty little secret I keep pointing out is that Perron is looking good because he is good, not because of Crosby.

Three game slump looks like a two year slump to me. Being the "only skilled winger" on the big club has been enough to make him the seventh most-effective guy we've deployed in that role. In other words, without results, all those head-fakes on the wall don't matter, except to maybe Mike Green when he doesn't buy them and springs Eric Fehr for a breakaway.

Bennett isn't bringing value. His only value is in his production and his production is poorer than the guys JR bought at the dollar store. As far as non-production value, he brings exactly nothing. Makes us slower, makes us weaker, he's soft and he's a poor defensive player.

Some guys are more than their numbers. Bennett isn't one of those guys.

Idea that Bennett's numbers are depressed by Malkin not being a good enough finisher is crazy, frankly. These glorious chances that Malkin's supposedly botching are figments of the imagination.

If a player needs a better center than Malkin to outscore Steve Downie, it's time to find another player.

 

[canadianguy77]

Agree with all of this.

Re: the PP. How do you have a unit struggling so badly and not *try* the umbrella setup (manned exactly as you stated)? It's maddening watching the current unit suck the life out of our team so often.

Well it would take away Sid's dumb cross-ice touch passes wouldn't it?

The thing with Letang at the point is that he bobbles the puck whenever he feels pressure, which is almost always. That's why they give up so many odd-man rushes the other way on the PP. Keeping the play down low gives Letang more time and space to get a shot through or fling the puck down behind the net to Sid. Why Tocchet hasn't tried this, I'll never know.

 

[blueliner18]

I wish the Penguins would utilize Malkin on the pp the same way the caps do Ovechkin when he comes back. Ovechkin is their best shooter so his job is to fire one-timers from the left circle. Why not just have Malkin sit in the right circle and shoot? Every team does this with their best shooter. Don't see why the Pens don't.

This does not happen because "Crosby likes to run the right side boards too". Somebody has to tell Sid, play low, get to the net, score goals. Malkin belongs on that right side, his shot is waaaaaaay better than Crosby's from that position. However, whatever Crosby wants seems to be worth its weight in gold since they always cater to his needs before team needs. The other problem though, who is going to put the puck on a tee for Geno? Letang has improved on the PP, but is far from gaining Sergei Gonchar's puck distributing talent. The guy is just an awful passer.

 

[NewAgeOutlaw]

Sid would be wasted on the point.

I disagree. Ron Francis was excellent on the point and he couldn't shoot worth a damn. Think Crosby would be good at getting shots through too. It's worth giving it a shot imo.

 

[blueliner18]

He would be magic on the point

EDIT- I just don't think his shot plays well out on the point.

Yeah he would be great at distributing the puck (if he doesn't get too cute, which is possible). I'd put Geno on his right, Letang on the left, but, the Pens would lose any threat of a booming shot from the point position. Crosby has scored a majority of his career goals within a 10' radius of the net, he best serves this team down low on the PP. He'll never play there though because he doesn't want to. Apparently it isn't up to the coaching staff where Sid plays or who he plays with, it's up to Sid. Which is absolutely ridiculous!

 

[gordie]

This does not happen because "Crosby likes to run the right side boards too". Somebody has to tell Sid, play low, get to the net, score goals. Malkin belongs on that right side, his shot is waaaaaaay better than Crosby's from that position. However, whatever Crosby wants seems to be worth its weight in gold since they always cater to his needs before team needs. The other problem though, who is going to put the puck on a tee for Geno? Letang has improved on the PP, but is far from gaining Sergei Gonchar's puck distributing talent. The guy is just an awful passer.

This why I say Crosby on the point. Madden also was talking about how they miss Gonchar's ability to distribute the puck. Who is better then Sid on this team right now at doing just that? Letang can move it up and pass to Sid who can pass where he likes and control the PP. This right side board stuff is stale and makes Crosby rush the PP because it is so easy for the opposition to take away his time and space with the boards being so near. As long as Sid continues on the right side boards this PP will never be lethal enough.

 

[drpepper]

Crosby in the slot is a waste. It neutralizes his work along the boards. The defense collapses around him which (1) prevents Crosby from getting a the puck and in turn doesn't allow him to shoot or to pass neutralizing any offensive threat and (2) blocks any shooting lane from the points. In addition, the rest of the powerplay struggles to move the puck except at the perimeter and often forces the puck to Crosby. It also leavse Crosby open to getting roughed up on all sides.

Crosby at the point utilizes his vision and passing. However, it neutralizes his work along the boards. It forces him to take distance shots which are not his strong suit; the defense can stay low because he is not a danger from out there. If necessary he is also one of the weaker 1v1 defenders.

I am not sure why the power play doesn't have multiple looks. First, force Crosby to be a rover. I am not sure how well this will work because my suspicion is he will drift to the right wall, but it is worth a shot. Have Malkin run the powerplay from the right wall. Second, have Crosby work the goal line with Malkin at the right wall. Third, have Crosby work the half-wall and put Malkin as the rover or on the left point. Maybe even try Malkin in the slot. Fourth, run the powerplay through Perron on the left wall. Depending on the opposing team and how the powerplay enters the zone use a different look.