Salary Cap: Penguins Salary Cap Thread: End of an era?

[Tom Hanks]

Cant we all just get along?

Is A. Long going to sign here though?

 

[Pens x]

Is A. Long going to sign here though?

If he is a no risk/no reward Smurf that has no skills except he can skate fast, yes.

 

[TimmyD]

Jake Sid Rust
Paul Malkin Rakell
DOC Carter Marchment
Zohorna Blueger McGinn

Dumo Petry
Matheson Marino
POJ Lyubushkin

Jarry
Holtby

 

[ChaosAgent]

A PP seems like a great candidate to look at holistically for performance versus individual components' "production."

But what the hey, we haven't evolved to that point yet.

 

[SEALBound]

There is always a certain amount of blame that has to be assigned to the player, of course. He needed to shoot more... to find a way.

But I mean... that's just how it works. A powerplay that has a guy on it like Malkin should look to be running the powerplay to set up the shot. They weren't scheming that nearly enough. I don't think that's a stretch at all. I don't care if he's making 10M or 2M... you can't will the puck through shin guards and traffic. Movement and actually putting that last pass in a guy's wheelhouse... not nearly enough of either.

I don't disagree. There's a lot at play when determining what is wrong with the PP. Shot selection and movement are by far the biggest issues. #3-999 are distance compared to those two things. That said, perhaps #3 is the fact that Malkin doesn't have a lethal slapshot one-timer anymore. Certainly not what it was a decade ago. If that was the sole goal, it should be set up for Jake to take the shot. Or even Sid.

But the idea that "well Malkin doesn't shoot because Sid and Letang don't put it in his wheelhouse for the perfect shot" is questionable at best.

 

[Peat]

Tepid take. Only 31 players were on ice for a better PP goal rate than Geno last regular season - or to put it another way, the top units from NYR, TOR, STL, NSH, and a couple guys from VAN/EDM/FLA, and a couple outliers who really elevated their units from there. Sid was 35th. The 1st PP was a strength more often that it was a weakness when fit.

And Geno was a top 20 PP goal scorer by rate, shooting at 20.45% so it's not like his shot was last. The unit picked the wrong moment to shit itself and it would be nice if it could be better but the idea that the 1st unit was never up to snuff, or that Geno's one timer shouldn't be a major factor to plan around, seems questionable.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah I'm not making this a "poor wittle Geno isn't getting his passes just so" thing. Like I said it's on him as much as it is anyone. But we aren't trying to say he's a problem on the powerplay, I hope? I'd say if anything he was one of the only guys consistently making it move the last however long. I love Sid and Letang but they just aren't naturals in a static situation like the powerplay, IMO. And again... in a setup that makes more sense I'd never have Malkin up top to begin with.

Like it sucks that the powerplay fell on it's face at the worst time but I sure didn't take "this is Malkin's fault" away from that. Though again I'm not even sure that's the point, here?

I dunno. I'm going back to the food thread.

 

[K Fleur]

The Pens powerplay is too predictable and easy to read.

Being predictable is fine if you have a game breaking “weapon” on your powerplay but I don’t know that we do. The Pens powerplay has enough overall skill that it doesn’t matter until it does.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Jake Sid Rust
Paul Malkin Rakell
DOC Carter Marchment
Zohorna Blueger McGinn

Dumo Petry
Matheson Marino
POJ Lyubushkin

Jarry
Holtby

Replace Petry with Klingberg and I’d take it.

 

[Tom Hanks]

The Pens powerplay is too predictable and easy to read.

Being predictable is fine if you have a game breaking “weapon” on your powerplay but I don’t know that we do. The Pens powerplay has enough overall skill that it doesn’t matter until it does.

My take is every coach has a plan for the PP but eventually instinct takes over these highly skilled guys and when you have the likes of Malkin, Crosby, Letang & even when we had Phil they think they can do the impossible. Sometimes they can. They’re also so skilled that it works out in the end as a higher rated PP in the league

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

He’s 12th in Powerplay goals amongst defensemen since he became a # 1 D in 2009-10.

People said this the whole time Schultz was here and he proceeded to have 1 Powerplay goal in three years.

The biggest issue I have with Letang on the PP is his inability to consistently put it in Geno's wheelhouse for a one-timer. It's such a relatively straightforward thing, but Letang seems to struggle at it in comparison to other top end PPQBs around the league.

I also don't think he's much of a threat to score as the shooter at the top of the umbrella. I think that's why he excels at 5on5 offense because his main strength is joining as the late man in the rush and getting shots off from closer in. But strictly as the shooter on the point from 40+ feet out, his shot leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[MayorofWBS]

Replace Petry with Klingberg and I’d take it.

Just say no to Klingberg's new awful contract some team is going to dole out to him. Petry/Burns/etc. are more idea as a shorter term stop gap. We don't need another defensemen with a long, bad contract.

 

[Pens1566]

The biggest issue I have with Letang on the PP is his inability to consistently put it in Geno's wheelhouse for a one-timer. It's such a relatively straightforward thing, but Letang seems to struggle at it in comparison to other top end PPQBs around the league.

I also don't think he's much of a threat to score as the shooter at the top of the umbrella. I think that's why he excels at 5on5 offense because his main strength is joining as the late man in the rush and getting shots off from closer in. But strictly as the shooter on the point from 40+ feet out, his shot leaves a lot to be desired.

Those are his main faults on the PP. He keeps doing the fake shot and no one buys it, or is fooled by it.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Just say no to Klingberg's new awful contract some team is going to dole out to him. Petry/Burns/etc. are more idea as a shorter term stop gap. We don't need another defensemen with a long, bad contract.

Klingberg is 5+ years younger than those guys. You’re getting 5 good years, then 1 or 2 bad ones depending on contract length.

Those other guys are going to be bad in a matter of months.

 

[Pens1566]

Klingberg is 5+ years younger than those guys. You’re getting 5 good years, then 1 or 2 bad ones depending on contract length.

Those other guys are going to be bad in a matter of months.

I think the point was that to get Klingberg on the UFA market you're going to have to give him term, most of which will be wasted here after the window is officially closed in ~3yrs. Then you've got a high priced, old, likely declining asset that you may or may not be able to move based on those factors or NTC/NMC you had to give him to come here in the first place.

I get the hesitancy to go after him based on that.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Tepid take. Only 31 players were on ice for a better PP goal rate than Geno last regular season - or to put it another way, the top units from NYR, TOR, STL, NSH, and a couple guys from VAN/EDM/FLA, and a couple outliers who really elevated their units from there. Sid was 35th. The 1st PP was a strength more often that it was a weakness when fit.

And Geno was a top 20 PP goal scorer by rate, shooting at 20.45% so it's not like his shot was last. The unit picked the wrong moment to shit itself and it would be nice if it could be better but the idea that the 1st unit was never up to snuff, or that Geno's one timer shouldn't be a major factor to plan around, seems questionable.

Now THIS is a good stat. Is the PP good with Geno? Is it better with Geno than without Geno?

This stat answers the fundamental question quite nicely - yes.

PP Assists/60 comparatively speaking is a garbage stat that means little. I'm glad we are discussing stats that correlate to the effectiveness of players.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I think the point was that to get Klingberg on the UFA market you're going to have to give him term, most of which will be wasted here after the window is officially closed in ~3yrs. Then you've got a high priced, old, likely declining asset that you may or may not be able to move based on those factors or NTC/NMC you had to give him to come here in the first place.

I get the hesitancy to go after him based on that.

Sure, but realistically where will this team be in year 5 or 6 of the Klingberg deal? The two generational talents will both be retired by then.

 

[Flying Dego]

Now THIS is a good stat. Is the PP good with Geno? Is it better with Geno than without Geno?

This stat answers the fundamental question quite nicely - yes.

PP Assists/60 comparatively speaking is a garbage stat that means little. I'm glad we are discussing stats that correlate to the effectiveness of players.

Unfortunately most of us here don't know this. Would need input from Geno's wife

 

[Pens1566]

Sure, but realistically where will this team be in year 5 or 6 of the Klingberg deal? The two generational talents will both be retired by then.

That's the point. The "core" is all but gone, and you've still likely got Klingberg at a big cap hit. You should be looking to quick rebuild using cap space and picks to maximize return. Having him with 3+ yrs still on a deal that likely includes some movement restrictions isn't a great way to go about that. Why would you do that instead of lining up your expiring contracts as much as possible?

You've already got a hell of a problem in 2yrs with Jake. Unless you think the next core is a 30yr old Guentzel without a real #1C and a 33(?) yr old Klingberg ...

 

[ChaosAgent]

You've already got a hell of a problem in 2yrs with Jake. Unless you think the next core is a 30yr old Guentzel without a real #1C and a 33(?) yr old Klingberg ...

Guentzel in two years is a "hell of a problem" like getting 2 1sts and a prospect is a problem. Sign me up for more of that.

JK...he's a FA. Well, regardless. More Guentzel plz!

 

[Daeni10]

Thinking about that a lot, but I would definitly prefer Malkin over Letang and I think that Malkin is way more important to a potential Cup run than Letang is.
I would go as far as saying you dont need a true #1 defenseman to win a cup (2017 style), unless the #1 is game changing talent like Makar or Hedman.
Letang is a star, but he is not game changing talent.

Defense in hockey (but also in other sports like real football) is a team effort, especially in the playoffs. Simply put, the opponent wont score unless you make a mistake and scoring goals is much harder than preventing them, so I'd rather lose the defensive talent than the offensive game changer in Malkin.

So to win you obviously need #1 level of goaltending.

Defensively you need to be commited as a team with a proper system in place, and you need to fill certain roles within your defense. Now thats why I think Letang would be easier to replace.
What do you want in a defensive unit?
So on every pair you want the defenseman to be able to move the puck to your forwards. No need to be super special, just solid (say it with me GMRS) puck-moving-defenseman.
You want a defenseman who can carry the puck and get you into the zone (Daley type)
You want a PPQB (like Justin Schulz)
You want the shutdown type who clears the net on the PK, blocks shots, and can be trusted against good competition (Cole)
You want your minute eating defenseman who you can put into every situation (Dumo)
Obviously, if you can get multiple boxes checked in one defenseman, thats nice, but I dont think you have to have it on order to win.

Looking at our blue line, I think we have lots of pieces there already that can fill roles.

Matheson can carry a puck into the zone, maybe play on the PP (not completely sold)
Marino and Dumo can be a solid minute eating two way pair, if Dumo gets his shit back together which I think.
Pets-X can be more of a grinding pair.
So if there is a way to use the cap savings of Letang to fill out those roles, I think our defense can be in a good spot.
Kind of like six top 4 defenseman also can get the job done if you use them properly. Because they usually are stromg enough at their strengths to get it done, just not as well rounded. Obviously its on the coach to put them in a situation to succeed, but I think we have done a good job there with defenseman.

Now offense is where you just need the game breaking talent just having a random moment of brilliance in a crucial situations. I think Malkin can do that, I think Sid can do that, I think Guentzel can do that. But if Malkin is not there, I just dont think we have enough up front. And I feel like what we are missing with Letang gone can more easily be replaced in comparism to what we are missing with Malkin.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Petry ain't it, boys.

I'm not sold Klingberg is either, but Petry absolutely ain't it.

 

[Pens1566]

Guentzel in two years is a "hell of a problem" like getting 2 1sts and a prospect is a problem. Sign me up for more of that.

JK...he's a FA. Well, regardless. More Guentzel plz!

Yeah, not sure what you do with him as a UFA with one year left of Sid.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Thinking about that a lot, but I would definitly prefer Malkin over Letang and I think that Malkin is way more important to a potential Cup run than Letang is.
I would go as far as saying you dont need a true #1 defenseman to win a cup (2017 style), unless the #1 is game changing talent like Makar or Hedman.
Letang is a star, but he is not game changing talent.

Defense in hockey (but also in other sports like real football) is a team effort, especially in the playoffs. Simply put, the opponent wont score unless you make a mistake and scoring goals is much harder than preventing them, so I'd rather lose the defensive talent than the offensive game changer in Malkin.

So to win you obviously need #1 level of goaltending.

Defensively you need to be commited as a team with a proper system in place, and you need to fill certain roles within your defense. Now thats why I think Letang would be easier to replace.
What do you want in a defensive unit?
So on every pair you want the defenseman to be able to move the puck to your forwards. No need to be super special, just solid (say it with me GMRS) puck-moving-defenseman.
You want a defenseman who can carry the puck and get you into the zone (Daley type)
You want a PPQB (like Justin Schulz)
You want the shutdown type who clears the net on the PK, blocks shots, and can be trusted against good competition (Cole)
You want your minute eating defenseman who you can put into every situation (Dumo)
Obviously, if you can get multiple boxes checked in one defenseman, thats nice, but I dont think you have to have it on order to win.

Looking at our blue line, I think we have lots of pieces there already that can fill roles.

Matheson can carry a puck into the zone, maybe play on the PP (not completely sold)
Marino and Dumo can be a solid minute eating two way pair, if Dumo gets his shit back together which I think.
Pets-X can be more of a grinding pair.
So if there is a way to use the cap savings of Letang to fill out those roles, I think our defense can be in a good spot.
Kind of like six top 4 defenseman also can get the job done if you use them properly. Because they usually are stromg enough at their strengths to get it done, just not as well rounded. Obviously its on the coach to put them in a situation to succeed, but I think we have done a good job there with defenseman.

Now offense is where you just need the game breaking talent just having a random moment of brilliance in a crucial situations. I think Malkin can do that, I think Sid can do that, I think Guentzel can do that. But if Malkin is not there, I just dont think we have enough up front. And I feel like what we are missing with Letang gone can more easily be replaced in comparism to what we are missing with Malkin.

Props for typing this whole argument, but I still think the lynchpin that holds it together was that 2017 was inevitable and not a fluke.

A #1D is vital in all zones, supports the offensive attack and plays the most minutes. If you're choosing between a #2C and a Legit #1D it isn't even a question of which you pick.

By the way if you're talking 2017 you could just as easily talk 2016 where Malkin's L2 were just CORSI stars and produced very little but we still won - and Letang was the best player.

 

[Daeni10]

Props for typing this whole argument, but I still think the lynchpin that holds it together was that 2017 was inevitable and not a fluke.

A #1D is vital in all zones, supports the offensive attack and plays the most minutes. If you're choosing between a #2C and a Legit #1D it isn't even a question of which you pick.

By the way if you're talking 2017 you could just as easily talk 2016 where Malkin's L2 were just CORSI stars and produced very little but we still won - and Letang was the best player.

In no way I think that 2017s team was better without Letang and we won despite Letang being out, not because of him being out. In a perfect world, we also keep both, but my point is that if we have to lose one, I think we could compensate Letangs departure better if done properly