Friedman: Penguins interested in Jack Roslovic

[Empoleon8771]

You asked. You received. You backtracked. You clearly aren’t looking for reason. You are simply arguing a point of view to death regardless of the facts.

Yes, I asked an initial question. Then I asked a follow up question to that initial question.

I didn’t see your dozens of examples. Please list them for me.

Fabbri, Erne, Milano, Yakupov, Niederreiter, Sheahan, Etem, DSP, Spooner, Baertschi, Oleksiak, Beaulieu, Namestnikov, Jurco, Aberg, Lazar...

I got bored at this point but I think you get the gist of it.

 

[Pens x]

"Sure Kapanen isn't at all comparable because he's way more proven than Roslovic, but I can make up a hypothetical scenario to argue that he has that kind of value"

JR also heavily overpaid for Kapanen based on the thought that he can be a top-6 forward in Pittsburgh. That doesn't mean every player he's going to trade for is going to involve an overpayment.

JR tends to overpay for every player though...

“But he gets the guy he wants! He’s not afraid to fix his mistakes!”

 

[TS Quint]

Yes, I asked an initial question. Then I asked a follow up question to that initial question.



Fabbri, Erne, Milano, Yakupov, Niederreiter, Sheahan, Etem, DSP, Spooner, Baertschi, Oleksiak, Beaulieu, Namestnikov, Jurco...

I got bored at this point but I think you get the gist of it.

I can see why you get bored listing players that don’t compare. Even with those stretches you could list the dozens of random players that you promised.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I can see why you get bored listing players that don’t compare. Even with those stretches you could list the dozens of random players that you promised.

Yes, they don't compare because you said so. Amazing justification there.

 

[TS Quint]

Yes, they don't compare because you said so. Amazing justification there.

I don’t have to justify your point. That is up to you not me. You only proved that my example is valid.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don’t have to justify your point. That is up to you not me. You only proved that my example is valid.

I already provided a dozen examples of players comparable to Roslovic that weren't traded for a 1st rounder in value.

The best comparisons that I listed for Roslovic there are Perlini, Milano, Yakupov, Fabbri and Baertschi. None of those guys brought back 1sts. All of those guys when they were traded were highly comparable to Roslovic right now. Just because you don't like what the comparisons say doesn't mean those comparisons are wrong.

 

[Remember2004]

Yes, you gave me 1 example. And then I asked you to tell me why that 1 example holds more weight than the dozens of other examples that suggest he doesn't have that kind of value.

Now can you present dozens of "other" examples? I am genuinely curious.

 

[cneely]

Yes, I asked an initial question. Then I asked a follow up question to that initial question.



Fabbri, Erne, Milano, Yakupov, Niederreiter, Sheahan, Etem, DSP, Spooner, Baertschi, Oleksiak, Beaulieu, Namestnikov, Jurco, Aberg, Lazar...

I got bored at this point but I think you get the gist of it.

The Fabbri deal looks very good for Detroit right now.
Oleksiak was 25 when he was traded and a defensive defenceman.
Erne was a second rounder who has never cracked 20 points.
Milano is a decent comparable.
Yakupov never really worked out. It happens
Spooner was a second rounder who never cracked the NHL as a full time player until he was 23.

Your point is valid, but a lot of those guys are not really comparable in pedigree or in results.

Roslovic never really got a chance with Winnipeg, IMO, because they are so loaded at wing in the top 6, and he was never really trusted as a center. I think he still has the potential to be a very good player.

 

[CTZ181]

The Fabbri deal looks very good for Detroit right now.
Oleksiak was 25 when he was traded and a defensive defenceman.
Erne was a second rounder who has never cracked 20 points.
Milano is a decent comparable.
Yakupov never really worked out. It happens
Spooner was a second rounder who never cracked the NHL as a full time player until he was 23.

Your point is valid, but a lot of those guys are not really comparable in pedigree or in results.

Roslovic never really got a chance with Winnipeg, IMO, because they are so loaded at wing in the top 6, and he was never really trusted as a center. I think he still has the potential to be a very good player.

They are comparable in value. That doesn't mean they have to be the exact same player.

Jets fans getting triggered at the idea Roslovic won't get a 1st rounder is enough proof that it's not going to happen.

 

[CTZ181]

Now can you present dozens of "other" examples? I am genuinely curious.

Can you split finer hairs than this?

 

[cneely]

I already provided a dozen examples of players comparable to Roslovic that weren't traded for a 1st rounder in value.

The best comparisons that I listed for Roslovic there are Perlini, Milano, Yakupov, Fabbri and Baertschi. None of those guys brought back 1sts. All of those guys when they were traded were highly comparable to Roslovic right now. Just because you don't like what the comparisons say doesn't mean those comparisons are wrong.

At the same age that Roslovic is now, Baertschi had 30 points in the NHL. About what Roslovic had last year alone. I don't think they are comparable at all.
Perlini is going in the wrong direction and when he was traded, was coming off a 6 point season.

I could keep going, but I am just pointing out that there are significant differences in your comparables.

 

[cneely]

They are comparable in value. That doesn't mean they have to be the exact same player.

Jets fans getting triggered at the idea Roslovic won't get a 1st rounder is enough proof that it's not going to happen.

I don't think they are comparable. That's the point.
Not sure how to respond to your second point. That is certainly not proof, and I don't see too many folks getting "triggered". Most are simply saying he can sit then.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yakupov: pace of 16 goals and 36 points per 82 games with the Oilers, was a former #1 overall pick, traded for a conditional 3rd and a throw-in player
Perlini: pace of 19 goals and 30 points per 82 games with the Coyotes and Hawks, was a former #12 overall pick, traded for a 3rd
Milano: pace of 14 goals and 30 points per 82 games with the Jackets, was a former #16 overall pick, traded for a rental 3rd liner having a bad year
Fabbri: pace of 16 goals and 37 points per 82 games with the Blues, was a former #21 overall pick, traded for a 4th liner
Baertschi: pace of 10 goals and 35 points per 82 games with the Flames, was a former #13 overall pick, traded for a 2nd

Roslovic: pace of 12 goals and 31 points per 82 games with the Jets, was a former #25 pick

You can convince me that a late 2nd for Roslovic is fair, but that's about the max I'd be willing to say is fair based on precedent. There are scores of comparable players to Roslovic, whether you want to look at exact comparable (like the 5 I mentioned above) or even just remote comparables (like comparing him to Nathan Beaulieu, who was traded for a 3rd after 3 seasons of being a good bottom pair D), that suggest his return is in the 2nd-3rd range than anything higher than that.

 

[TS Quint]

I already provided a dozen examples of players comparable to Roslovic that weren't traded for a 1st rounder in value.

The best comparisons that I listed for Roslovic there are Perlini, Milano, Yakupov, Fabbri and Baertschi. None of those guys brought back 1sts. All of those guys when they were traded were highly comparable to Roslovic right now. Just because you don't like what the comparisons say doesn't mean those comparisons are wrong.

The only one I saw you attempt to explain was Perlini while your big point was his 17/18 season but also want to ignore his value in the Strome trade but think a player who was only playing 10 min/ night with the Hawks as equal value. Is this what we are doing? You are throwing crap at a wall.

Keep going, you’re doing great.

 

[Darren McCord]

This seems like a reactionary rumor based on the penguins start. I don't think there is to much of a deal here. Penguins don't really have the futures and Winnipeg doesn't have much capspace.

I don't even think the penguins could afford roslovic's contract.

 

[cneely]

Yakupov: pace of 16 goals and 36 points per 82 games with the Oilers, was a former #1 overall pick, traded for a conditional 3rd and a throw-in player
Perlini: pace of 19 goals and 30 points per 82 games with the Coyotes and Hawks, was a former #12 overall pick, traded for a 3rd
Milano: pace of 14 goals and 30 points per 82 games with the Jackets, was a former #16 overall pick, traded for a rental 3rd liner having a bad year
Fabbri: pace of 16 goals and 37 points per 82 games with the Blues, was a former #21 overall pick, traded for a 4th liner
Baertschi: pace of 10 goals and 35 points per 82 games with the Flames, was a former #13 overall pick, traded for a 2nd

Roslovic: pace of 12 goals and 31 points per 82 games with the Jets, was a former #25 pick

You can convince me that a late 2nd for Roslovic is fair, but that's about the max I'd be willing to say is fair based on precedent. There are scores of comparable players to Roslovic, whether you want to look at exact comparable (like the 5 I mentioned above) or even just remote comparables (like comparing him to Nathan Beaulieu, who was traded for a 3rd after 3 seasons of being a good bottom pair D), that suggest his return is in the 2nd-3rd range than anything higher than that.

Yakapov was a disappointment certainly, and I'm not sure I'd call him a comparable for multiple reasons, but its fair to say that trade was low value for him.
Perlini, as I mentioned, was coming off a 6 point season.
Milano is a pretty good comparable IMO. I think the Ducks are likely very happy with the trade though.
Fabbri as I mentioned, is trending up and Wings are probably quite happy with the deal.
Baertschi had 30 career points at ag 23. Roslovic had 29 points in 71 games last year at age 23.

You are using career stats when some of these players were certainly trending in the wrong direction. Roslovic has increased his point totals every year.

In the cases with the best comparables, Milano and Fabbri, I think the teams receiving those players are quite happy with the results, indicating the return was probably too low in hind sight.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The only one I saw you attempt to explain was Perlini while your big point was his 17/18 season but also want to ignore his value in the Strome trade but think a player who was only playing 10 min/ night with the Hawks as equal value. Is this what we are doing? You are throwing crap at a wall.

Keep going, you’re doing great.

Lol whatever you want to tell yourself bud. You'll just look like a fool when Roslovic doesn't get traded for even remotely close to what you're expecting for him.

I laid out what his actual comparables were. You're putting your head in the sand because you're a Jets fan who doesn't want to believe reality.

Your point is valid, but a lot of those guys are not really comparable in pedigree or in results.

"Comparable" doesn't mean the exact same, though. Nathan Beaulieu is a great comparable for Roslovic because he was a former 1st rounder who had established himself as a solid bottom pair defenseman when he was traded by Montreal. They don't play the same position, but the comparison works well there.

 

[SEALBound]

I don't think Roslovic alone is worth a 1st. I highly, HIGHLY doubt any GM gives one up for him unless it's part of a bigger trade.

"Hurrr durrr but it's Jim Rutherford...durrr"

Let's examine recent Jim Rutherford trades involving our 1st:

2016 - Traded in a package for 1RW Phil Kessel who was signed for 7 years with retention.
2017 - Traded with Sundqvist to St Louis for Reaves+2nd. They moved back 20 spots in the draft and took the same player they would have with the first. Reaves has also outproduced every player taken from 31 to 51 and had two full seasons remaining on his deal.
2018 - Traded in a package for 2C Brassard @ 50% who had the remainder of the year and the next year.
2019 - Kept -> Poulin
2020 - Traded for Top 6 RW Kapanen who has two full seasons at a cheap cap hit remaining.
2021 - Traded for Top 6 LW Zucker who had 4 years remaining on his deal at a good market value.

JR does not hand out 1st round picks much to the chagrin of people here who constantly seek to discredit the guy. Consistently he trades 1st for impact now players at good hits with more than one year on their deal.

Roslovic for a 1st is not JR's MO.

You can argue in hindsight the post-trade value and impact but at the time of each of the trades, they made a lot of sense for the Penguins to do.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yakapov was a disappointment certainly, and I'm not sure I'd call him a comparable for multiple reasons, but its fair to say that trade was low value for him.
Perlini, as I mentioned, was coming off a 6 point season.
Milano is a pretty good comparable IMO. I think the Ducks are likely very happy with the trade though.
Fabbri as I mentioned, is trending up and Wings are probably quite happy with the deal.
Baertschi had 30 career points at ag 23. Roslovic had 29 points in 71 games last year at age 23.

You are using career stats when some of these players were certainly trending in the wrong direction. Roslovic has increased his point totals every year.

No he wasn't? Perlini was traded from Arizona to Chicago in a part of the Schmaltz deal when he had 6 points in 22 games. He was then traded for strictly futures a year later, when he was traded to Detroit for just a 3rd rounder. Perlini had 21 points in 68 games the year before he was traded purely for futures, which isn't great but wasn't terribly far off from his other years.

 

[Darren McCord]

I don't think Roslovic alone is worth a 1st. I highly, HIGHLY doubt any GM gives one up for him unless it's part of a bigger trade.

"Hurrr durrr but it's Jim Rutherford...durrr"

Let's examine recent Jim Rutherford trades involving our 1st:

2016 - Traded in a package for 1RW Phil Kessel who was signed for 7 years with retention.
2017 - Traded with Sundqvist to St Louis for Reaves+2nd. They moved back 20 spots in the draft and took the same player they would have with the first. Reaves has also outproduced every player taken from 31 to 51 and had two full seasons remaining on his deal.
2018 - Traded in a package for 2C Brassard @ 50% who had the remainder of the year and the next year.
2019 - Kept -> Poulin
2020 - Traded for Top 6 RW Kapanen who has two full seasons at a cheap cap hit remaining.
2021 - Traded for Top 6 LW Zucker who had 4 years remaining on his deal at a good market value.

JR does not hand out 1st round picks much to the chagrin of people here who constantly seek to discredit the guy. Consistently he trades 1st for impact now players at good hits with more than one year on their deal.

Roslovic for a 1st is not JR's MO.

You can argue in hindsight the post-trade value and impact but at the time of each of the trades, they made a lot of sense for the Penguins to do.

You forgot 2015

Traded a 1rst for David Perron who had the remainder of the year and the next year.

Fact is JR never traded a first for a rental or unsigned player. Roslovic is and RFA but people act like JR just throws out first.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You forgot 2015

Traded a 1rst for David Perron who had the remainder of the year and the next year.

Fact is JR never traded a first for a rental or unsigned player. Roslovic is and RFA but people act like JR just throws out first.

I wouldn't use that argument for why JR wouldn't trade a 1st for Roslovic. He wouldn't trade a 1st for Roslovic because he can likely get better than Roslovic by trading the 1st.

 

[cneely]

No he wasn't? Perlini was traded from Arizona to Chicago in a part of the Schmaltz deal when he had 6 points in 22 games. He was then traded for strictly futures a year later, when he was traded to Detroit for just a 3rd rounder. Perlini had 21 points in 68 games the year before he was traded purely for futures, which isn't great but wasn't terribly far off from his other years.

You're right, sorry. Need to read db better, lol.

My point remains, Perlini has fewer points than Roslovic that year and hadn't really progressed. Also, hard to assess that trade just yet, Regula is still only 20.

 

[JetsWillFly4Ever]

I don't think Roslovic alone is worth a 1st. I highly, HIGHLY doubt any GM gives one up for him unless it's part of a bigger trade.

"Hurrr durrr but it's Jim Rutherford...durrr"

Let's examine recent Jim Rutherford trades involving our 1st:

2016 - Traded in a package for 1RW Phil Kessel who was signed for 7 years with retention.
2017 - Traded with Sundqvist to St Louis for Reaves+2nd. They moved back 20 spots in the draft and took the same player they would have with the first. Reaves has also outproduced every player taken from 31 to 51 and had two full seasons remaining on his deal.
2018 - Traded in a package for 2C Brassard @ 50% who had the remainder of the year and the next year.
2019 - Kept -> Poulin
2020 - Traded for Top 6 RW Kapanen who has two full seasons at a cheap cap hit remaining.
2021 - Traded for Top 6 LW Zucker who had 4 years remaining on his deal at a good market value.

JR does not hand out 1st round picks much to the chagrin of people here who constantly seek to discredit the guy. Consistently he trades 1st for impact now players at good hits with more than one year on their deal.

Roslovic for a 1st is not JR's MO.

You can argue in hindsight the post-trade value and impact but at the time of each of the trades, they made a lot of sense for the Penguins to do.

I'm not sure what the point of this is, Roslovic has 4 years of control and wouldn't be expensive to sign...

Anyway, I don't think Roslovic is worth a 1st. Probably a second and maybe a minor prospect add, but the Jets have no reason to trade him if the offer isn't worth it, he's costing us literally nothing sitting at home.

 

[Darren McCord]

With the expansion coming up it doesn't make sense for the pens unless they send a roster player back. Roslovic isn't exempt. So I don't see them trading pure futures. A player like Rust/TB/McCann would most likely have to be going to Winnipeg.

I also dont know where he fits in the top 9 when healthy, which is what he wants.

Jake - Sid - Kap
Zucker - Geno - Rust
McCann - Jank - Tanev

 

[Jackpot Jaret]

The only one I saw you attempt to explain was Perlini while your big point was his 17/18 season but also want to ignore his value in the Strome trade but think a player who was only playing 10 min/ night with the Hawks as equal value. Is this what we are doing? You are throwing crap at a wall.

Keep going, you’re doing great.

Wow, you're really desperately grasping at straws at this point to try and attempt to justify your argument. I'm not sure what world you live in that you think Roslovic is going to return a first round pick. Its also hilarious how you keep asking the other poster to provide examples, then when he does, you simply disregard them.