Salary Cap: Penguins 2013-14 cap/roster building discussion (Contract chart in Post #1)

[gopens66]

Won't make even the most negligible of differences unless Shero has access to a Ford Delorean, flux capacitor...

Ford? Delorean?

The Delorean was the only model produced by the Delorean Motor Company. I think they were assembled in Europe and shipped to the U.S. That is until John Delorean was charged with cocaine trafficking. But, I get what you mean.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Ford? Delorean?

The Delorean was the only model produced by the Delorean Motor Company. I think they were assembled in Europe and shipped to the U.S. That is until John Delorean was charged with cocaine trafficking. But, I get what you mean.

Ha, you're right, no idea why I threw "Ford" in there. I think this is where my memory confused me, Inception-style:

Marty McFly: There he is, Doc! Let's land on him, we'll cripple his car.
Doc: Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a DeLorean. He'd rip through us like we were tin foil.

 

[gopens66]

On topic:

If there is a coaching change, what are the chances Scuderi doesn't suck playing in whatever new system is introduced?

Also, if Scuderi is moved, how do you guys feel about Orpik being signed to a 1-year "thanks-for-the-memories" deal?

I've cursed out both of these guys throughout this season and would be completely comfortable running with Martin, Letang, Nisky, Maatta, Despres, and Bortuzzo. Dumoulin and Pouliot could very well make a strong case next camp. Also, they very well may not.

Letang getting traded ended with his stroke this year. Now that he's playing, is there any chance any team would still want him? If he could be moved, one would have to think that the stroke "condition" would somewhat limit the return he brings.

I think that he could still bring back a bonifide top line winger, if a team would be interested. I would have no problem with a 1-for-1 deal that brought a legit top-line winger back. This would potentially find Sid's bigtime winger, and most likely a few million in cap space to round out the top-9. At the same time, you send a headcase that can't run a powerplay out, and you send a pretty strong message to the team.

 

[Shwag33]

On topic:

If there is a coaching change, what are the chances Scuderi doesn't suck playing in whatever new system is introduced?

Also, if Scuderi is moved, how do you guys feel about Orpik being signed to a 1-year "thanks-for-the-memories" deal?

I've cursed out both of these guys throughout this season and would be completely comfortable running with Martin, Letang, Nisky, Maatta, Despres, and Bortuzzo. Dumoulin and Pouliot could very well make a strong case next camp. Also, they very well may not.

Letang getting traded ended with his stroke this year. Now that he's playing, is there any chance any team would still want him? If he could be moved, one would have to think that the stroke "condition" would somewhat limit the return he brings.

I think that he could still bring back a bonifide top line winger, if a team would be interested. I would have no problem with a 1-for-1 deal that brought a legit top-line winger back. This would potentially find Sid's bigtime winger, and most likely a few million in cap space to round out the top-9. At the same time, you send a headcase that can't run a powerplay out, and you send a pretty strong message to the team.

Better than you'd think. Remember the last time scuds was here was before byslmas system, yeah they won the cup; but that were using MT's system just looser.

Michalek played a similar game to scuds, he wanted out asap.

 

[gopens66]

Ha, you're right, no idea why I threw "Ford" in there. I think this is where my memory confused me, Inception-style:

Marty McFly: There he is, Doc! Let's land on him, we'll cripple his car.
Doc: Marty, he's in a '46 Ford, we're in a DeLorean. He'd rip through us like we were tin foil.

No sweat!

I do this kind of thing all the time. When I'm speaking, sometimes I'll think of two common sayings at the same time, and they get spewed out as some bizarre conglomeration like, "You can get two birds with one in the bush."

 

[themethod7]

On topic:

If there is a coaching change, what are the chances Scuderi doesn't suck playing in whatever new system is introduced?

Also, if Scuderi is moved, how do you guys feel about Orpik being signed to a 1-year "thanks-for-the-memories" deal?

I've cursed out both of these guys throughout this season and would be completely comfortable running with Martin, Letang, Nisky, Maatta, Despres, and Bortuzzo. Dumoulin and Pouliot could very well make a strong case next camp. Also, they very well may not.

Letang getting traded ended with his stroke this year. Now that he's playing, is there any chance any team would still want him? If he could be moved, one would have to think that the stroke "condition" would somewhat limit the return he brings.

I think that he could still bring back a bonifide top line winger, if a team would be interested. I would have no problem with a 1-for-1 deal that brought a legit top-line winger back. This would potentially find Sid's bigtime winger, and most likely a few million in cap space to round out the top-9. At the same time, you send a headcase that can't run a powerplay out, and you send a pretty strong message to the team.

I think Scuderi, in the right system, can still be a very serviceable middle/bottom pairing guy. Is a 35y #5 or 6 defenseman worth $3.4 million a year? No, not really. Certainly not Shero's best contract. But with a coaching change, I think he'd be fine playing 15m a night and filling the mentor role for some of our young guys.

Regardless of what Shero does with him though, I do not want Orpik back next year. Love what he's done for the team, but at this point he's dead weight and we have a logjam at D as it is, there's no reason to bring him back at the expense of guys like Dumoulin, Despres, Bort, Harrington, etc. If it turns out some of those young guys aren't ready to make the jump, there are tons of guys out there who can do what Orpik does that are cheaper, younger, or both - sign them to a 1-2y deal and move on.

As far as Letang goes, he's not the damaged goods many Pens fans would have you believe. If Shero were to make him available, teams would absolutely start lining up for a shot at him. He's still only 26, signed long term, and one season removed from a Norris nomination. Whether or not he was deserving of it doesn't change the fact that other people around the league view him as an elite defenseman. Personally, I think he still can come close to reaching his ceiling, but only with a new coach, either here or elsewhere. I think if we dealt him to a team that can reign him in a bit and get him playing smart, disciplined hockey, he's got top-5/top-10 potential.

 

[JRS91]

Scuderi's contract becomes justified under a different coach in a different system. He's where puck-possession goes to die.

 

[joeyjake5]

If Nisky is not signed and Scuds is removed from the team by any means possible, I can see Orpik being resigned at one or two years at no more than $2.5MM.

Letang should have been signed at no more than $6MM. His productivity warranted that type of contract. But at 7.25MM per year, way too much. With his current contract and medical issues, trading him is a very remote possibility.

For this team to show any improvement NOW and NEXT YEAR, both Scuds and Adams have to be removed from the team. Their replacements will be better no matter who they may be.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

There is no way that Orpik takes a pay cut. Especially on a short term contract.

 

[gopens66]

As far as Letang goes, he's not the damaged goods many Pens fans would have you believe. If Shero were to make him available, teams would absolutely start lining up for a shot at him. He's still only 26, signed long term, and one season removed from a Norris nomination. Whether or not he was deserving of it doesn't change the fact that other people around the league view him as an elite defenseman. Personally, I think he still can come close to reaching his ceiling, but only with a new coach, either here or elsewhere. I think if we dealt him to a team that can reign him in a bit and get him playing smart, disciplined hockey, he's got top-5/top-10 potential.

Yeah, I'm at the point now that I'd be OK with Letang hitting his potential somewhere else. (preferably in the Western Conference)

If the Pens send him out and get back a legit top-line winger for Sid signed long term, plus cap space, I'm fine with that move even if Letang goes on to win 3 Norris trophies. (which I don't really see happening)

 

[themethod7]

Yeah, I'm at the point now that I'd be OK with Letang hitting his potential somewhere else. (preferably in the Western Conference)

If the Pens send him out and get back a legit top-line winger for Sid signed long term, plus cap space, I'm fine with that move even if Letang goes on to win 3 Norris trophies. (which I don't really see happening)

I'd rather not go down this road again because it's been rehashed for months, but the list of guys who would be considered a "legit top-line winger for Sid", signed to a long term, cap friendly deal, is incredibly short. Unless you're willing to take a chance on an unproven young guy with a very, very high ceiling, there are not many viable options out there.

 

[joeyjake5]

Any GM taking Letang for a legit top six winger (at least 25 goals plus per season) and giving the pens valuable cap space would be fool hearty. I wish it would happen but it won't. but every trade has two components, cap and player evaluation.

If you were the Pens would you trade Kunitz or Neal for Letang if he were on another team. That's what you are asking another GM to do. The answer should be a NO NO.

 

[gopens66]

Any GM taking Letang for a legit top six winger (at least 25 goals plus per season) and giving the pens valuable cap space would be fool hearty. I wish it would happen but it won't. but every trade has two components, cap and player evaluation.

If you were the Pens would you trade Kunitz or Neal for Letang if he were on another team. That's what you are asking another GM to do. The answer should be a NO NO.

Letang-26 years old
Kunitz-34 years old

Yeah, I think some GM's would mull that over.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Letang has never played to the level of his current contract. That contract was given on the basis he would be getting better not worse.

I'm not saying he was bad in the last 3 years, he had one really good year, but not 7+million a year good. He put up a lot of points, but still had his negatives.

Yes, he has played to the level of his current contract, and he did it for 3 years. As I've pointed out many times, he,s the only defenseman over that period other than Weber and Chara to finish top 10 in Norris voting all 3 years. He also put up more points than any defenseman but Karlsson.

His negatives don't alter that. Believe it or not, a lot of big money defenseman have negatives.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Any GM taking Letang for a legit top six winger (at least 25 goals plus per season) and giving the pens valuable cap space would be fool hearty. I wish it would happen but it won't. but every trade has two components, cap and player evaluation.

If you were the Pens would you trade Kunitz or Neal for Letang if he were on another team. That's what you are asking another GM to do. The answer should be a NO NO.

The stroke throws a wrench in the works, the Letang we saw the 3 years before this one was worth more than Neal or Kunitz. PMDs are at a premium, and very few teams are as blessed as we are on that front.

 

[Shady Machine]

Any GM taking Letang for a legit top six winger (at least 25 goals plus per season) and giving the pens valuable cap space would be fool hearty. I wish it would happen but it won't. but every trade has two components, cap and player evaluation.

If you were the Pens would you trade Kunitz or Neal for Letang if he were on another team. That's what you are asking another GM to do. The answer should be a NO NO.

I would absolutely trade Kunitz for Letang. That's a no brainer. Neal it's a toss up. It depends on what my needs were. If I had a huge need for Letang and was deep on the wings (with prospects to fill the void) then yes I'd do that as well.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yes, he has played to the level of his current contract, and he did it for 3 years. As I've pointed out many times, he,s the only defenseman over that period other than Weber and Chara to finish top 10 in Norris voting all 3 years. He also put up more points than any defenseman but Karlsson.

His negatives don't alter that. Believe it or not, a lot of big money defenseman have negatives.

Letang outperformed his current contract every single season he's been on it with the possible exception of this year, IMO. But it was a sweetheart deal.

Unless things change rapidly... he's heading in the polar opposite direction on his next deal.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

People griping with Letang making 7 mil plus based on the previous 3 years make me wonder if they even look at other contracts around the league. You can take issue with Letang's play this year, or even whether he's worth 7 mil to this team with all our quality PMDs, but his contract's not above market value.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Letang outperformed his current contract every single season he's been on it with the possible exception of this year, IMO. But it was a sweetheart deal.

Unless things change rapidly... he's heading in the polar opposite direction on his next deal.

Let's hope it's just a down year.

 

[UnrealMachine]

Yes, he has played to the level of his current contract, and he did it for 3 years. As I've pointed out many times, he,s the only defenseman over that period other than Weber and Chara to finish top 10 in Norris voting all 3 years. He also put up more points than any defenseman but Karlsson.

His negatives don't alter that. Believe it or not, a lot of big money defenseman have negatives.

I believe you are giving too much weight to the Norris voting. Letang wasn't selected as one of the top 8 D for Team Canada. Add that Karlsson, Chara, Suter, OEL, etc., and Letang isn't in the NHL top 12 D. Heck, Martin has been the better D over the last 2 seasons in most people's minds. I guess we are all trying to figure out what Shero actually won in that contract negotiation with Letang?

 

[LetangInTheSO]

People griping with Letang making 7 mil plus based on the previous 3 years make me wonder if they even look at other contracts around the league. You can take issue with Letang's play this year, or even whether he's worth 7 mil to this team with all our quality PMDs, but his contract's not above market value.

I love Letang (see my username) and while I personally wouldn't say he's overpaid, it could certainly be debated. Have a look at the top 10 paid dmen:

Weber
Suter
Letang
Campbell
Phaneuf
Doughty
Chara
Karlsson
Pietrangelo
Green

How many of those guys would you trade for Letang? For me, it's all of them with the exception of Phaneuf, Green and maybe Campbell.

 

[Shwag33]

Yes, he has played to the level of his current contract, and he did it for 3 years. As I've pointed out many times, he,s the only defenseman over that period other than Weber and Chara to finish top 10 in Norris voting all 3 years. He also put up more points than any defenseman but Karlsson.

His negatives don't alter that. Believe it or not, a lot of big money defenseman have negatives.

He has NOT played like a 7+ million dollar dman for 3 seasons are you kidding? You could maybe argue 1... but 3??? And that one was shortened season.


Maybe I value being able to trust a D-man in tight situations a hell of a lot more than you do. His last deal, he was underpaid, now he's overpaid. I think it was poor asset management by keeping him. I can see the argument for keeping him though, but I'll never agree that he's played like a 7+million dollar man for more than a half season.


Edit: Forgot to add, your market value statement is probably true. He would have got that on the open market or probably more. That doesn't make it a great move.


Don't even get me started on the PP. I don't dislike him, but he is what he is... and he's currently overpaid and will be unless he gets significantly better mentally. His skills are there but doesn't have the brain.

 

[themethod7]

And keep in mind, most defensemen really don't start coming into their own until their mid to late 20s, it's just the nature of the position. The Karlsson's and Maatta's of the world are the exception, not the rule, and he's already shown he can play at an elite level before the age of 25. Trading Letang for anything less than a vast overpayment would be a mistake.

Then again, he could turn into Mike Green 2.0 and I'd feel like a real ******* in a few years. Let's hope it never comes to that...

 

[Beauner]

I'd rather not go down this road again because it's been rehashed for months, but the list of guys who would be considered a "legit top-line winger for Sid", signed to a long term, cap friendly deal, is incredibly short. Unless you're willing to take a chance on an unproven young guy with a very, very high ceiling, there are not many viable options out there.

I'm a huge Shero fan, but boy would it be nice to have some in house solutions for that...

 

[mpp9]

Id follow what LA does this offseason. They're still a damn good team but could use some better personnel on defense and maybe a different look up front.

Brown is struggling like back before their Cup run. Id love to see us go after him. Perfect Crosby linemate.

This offseason could see some big names on the move.