peak Jagr vs McDavid now

[authentic]

thats all relative, though. Of course ALL athletes in ALL sports are more talented today than they were 20 years ago.

This isnt about if McDavid would put up as many pts in the late 90s as Jagr.... I mean, of course he would. This is a question of who was more dominant in their given era.

No one will ever say Brent Burns was better than say, Ray Bourque, since he would put up more pts in the 80s.

Fair enough, and I think McDavid will get there as I mentioned.

 

[Silky mitts]

Than in the late 90s/early 00s? I don't know about that.

This is a myth

Based on what exactly? .... I mean, Claude Giroux finished 2nd in scoring last season. How strong is today's league exactly?

Jagr was putting up 120 pts with Martin Straka, and was 20 pts ahead of #2 in the lowest scoring era of all-time. If anything it was MUCH harder to score back then than it is now.

Only a handful of great players drafted 1992-2002, Datsyuk, Iginla, Chara. Compare to 2003-2016. You could say Forsberg was the 2nd best player over a stretch of Jagr’s prime and the league was weak enough for him to just show up for the playoffs. Lindros would have been another competitor for Jagr but he was missing huge chunks of time, that weakened the league.

Yeah Giroux was 2nd in points but Crosby, Malkin, Kucherov, Ovechkin, there are some pretty fair players that had great years lesser than Mcdavid’s.

 

[McFlash97]

Well he shouldn't be, there are like 15-20(if not more) players who had peak seasons that eclipse or rival McDavids best so far.

Please name 15 peak adjusted stats ... let alone 20.

 

[psycat]

Please name 15 peak adjusted stats ... let alone 20.

Jagr(obviously)
Gretzky
Lemieux
Crosby
Malkin
Ovechkin
Yzerman
Messier
Howe
Sakic
Forsberg
LaFleur
Esposito
Dionne

That's 15 on top of my head, sure a few of them might be close but then again I probably missed some that's not and I didn't include many old timers like Mikita, Beliveau. Also didn't factor defensive game in much else someone like Fedorov also got a strong case. Furthermore didn't take players that peaked for one year or so like LaFontaine, Nicholls.

Is his adjusted even higher than, say, Henrik Sedins?

 

[McFlash97]

Jagr(obviously)
Gretzky
Lemieux
Crosby
Malkin
Ovechkin
Yzerman
Messier
Howe
Sakic
Forsberg
LaFleur
Esposito
Dionne

That's 15 on top of my head, sure a few of them might be close but then again I probably missed some that's not and I didn't include many old timers like Mikita, Beliveau. Also didn't factor defensive game in much else someone like Fedorov also got a strong case. Furthermore didn't take players that peaked for one year or so like LaFontaine, Nicholls.

Is his adjusted even higher than, say, Henrik Sedins?

Tell yourself...how many of those guys you pick over Connor McDavid in a draft...be real dont bulls×××

 

[bobholly39]

Tell yourself...how many of those guys you pick over Connor McDavid in a draft...be real dont bulls×××

Very few likely. Gretzky Lemieux......Crosby/Jagr/Ovi debatable....maybe Messier/Esposito for some conservative ones.

His potential is super high - he could very well be #3 behind Gretzky and Lemieux

But how does that have any bearing on how high he has already peaked? His best full regular season so far isn't any better than most of the 15 names that were listed above. And that's what this thread was about i thought - better peak season.

 

[bobholly39]

Aha, basically "I'm not biased... YOU ARE!". I have no particular interest in Jagr, McDavid or Crosby in terms of championing one or another, and as I said that Jagr is the answer I don't really know what your point is supposed to be. I see no conspiracy here given how obvious it is but I do see the same posters with the same basic agenda (or often ridiculous arguments), in this case trying to downplay the new, significant threat to a certain player's place in hockey history (and present for that matter). I had to laugh this time because it isn't even a direct comparison but a proxy comparison, but there were the same old names.

Reading comprehension

I didn't say you're biased - I said you're insecure. Insecure in twisting a perfectly reasonable claim (that a large majority of posters - apparently including yourself - agree with) that Jagr has peaked higher than McDavid already has - into something supposedly to do about Crosby, or worst, Crosby vs Howe.

If you have any issue with some of my supposedly "ridiculous" arguments - by all means call me out on any of my posts specifically, instead of alluding to it in this underhanded way.

 

[Future GOAT]

I dont know. Without injuries I those seasons between 2011-2013 he was clearly pacing to have an unreal peak. But since he got injured, we are left with his 120 point season. Which is still a clear peak imo

He's certainly the poster boy for consistency, so if its anyone it probably is him. Problem is, I think OV had a better prime, so its hard for me to say.

In this thread, people are saying McDavids hasnt dominated to the effect of Jagr because he beat Giroux by 6 points etc. But if he keeps going on like that, then he could have 5/7 Art Ross and never have truly "dominated" his peers in one season.

Personally I dont think it will happen, hes too explosive and one year everything will just go right, then he will have 126 points or something ridiculous. Right now though, McDavid wins awards because hes winning the long game, he gets 3 points every 2 nights for the whole season instead of streaking like Laine or others. That's not evidence of a peak, so all we can really do is speculate.

Edit - this will hurt his all time status with some posters though. He could be known as a guy who barely won 6 art ross because his competition was weak and his peak wasnt even great

It could be that the league has reached such a point with systems and training etc that it is just extremely difficult to win the Art Ross by those kinds of point gaps these days.

 

[psycat]

Tell yourself...how many of those guys you pick over Connor McDavid in a draft...be real dont bulls×××

Nothing with the subject to do but ill do it anyway.

Jagr(again obviously)
Lemieux
Gretzky
Howe
Ovechkin
Crosby
Malkin
Messier
Mikita

After that it all depends on what happens from now on but those are the ones I wouldn't bet on him having a better career than. When it comes to peak I would probably take all of them above what he has done so far. Guess Forsberg, Crosby, Sakic and Dionne are arguable.

 

[thadd]

LOLOL you joking? Jagr was scoring tons of points and goals when tons of teams were trapping and there was no such thing as interference.

I'm obviously a huge McDavid fan and I'm pretty sure McDavid is going to go down as the 2nd best player to have ever played for the Oilers, but I take Jagr over McDavid so far.

Jagr was so damn fit, strong, stronger than hell, strong as an elephant had hands almost as good as Super Mario and knew how and when to score.

McDavid could be close to it, it's too soon to say. He's playing insane minutes with little help on a lot of nights. If he doesn't get burned out or injured he could flirt with 140 points this year, but I think 120 is more realistic. If it hit's 140 I change my vote to Jagr.

 

[Sky04]

Jagr won a scoring title by 20 points... in the DPE

 

[daver]

LOLOL you joking? Jagr was scoring tons of points and goals when tons of teams were trapping and there was no such thing as interference.

I'm obviously a huge McDavid fan and I'm pretty sure McDavid is going to go down as the 2nd best player to have ever played for the Oilers, but I take Jagr over McDavid so far.

Jagr was so damn fit, strong, stronger than hell, strong as an elephant had hands almost as good as Super Mario and knew how and when to score.

McDavid could be close to it, it's too soon to say. He's playing insane minutes with little help on a lot of nights. If he doesn't get burned out or injured he could flirt with 140 points this year, but I think 120 is more realistic. If it hit's 140 I change my vote to Jagr.

If hit 120 last year, that is absolutely in Jagr territory. Wayne and Mario are the only players who could hit 140 in the way the league has been for the past 10 years or so.

 

[thadd]

If hit 120 last year, that is absolutely in Jagr territory. Wayne and Mario are the only players who could hit 140 in the way the league has been for the past 10 years or so.

I know, and it's been like forever since someone scored 120.
Maybe I'm trying to be a modest Oilers fan.
Maybe I just think that super players like Jagr, Mario, Gretz and McDavid could expose a lot of things in the NHL now adays.

If Edmonton's 2nd-4th line keeps up with the no goals Drai is going to be back on the 1st line full time and I'm pretty sure the point totals will get disgusting.

 

[daver]

You and another noted defender of crosby rushing in to put McDavid's peak offence below several players that he has a debatable case against. I think it is more reasonable than the attempts to make a case for crosby vs Howe down the road though.

There is no argument that McDavid's Art Rosses are statistically inferior to those of the players I mentioned. If you want to argue that point go right ahead. Seems you want to make yourself feel good by making up claims of bias.

 

[amnesiac]

Claude Giroux is like 3 points behind Crosby for most points this decade lol, what's your point?

hes inconsistent.... 2 seasons ago people werent even considering him as a top 20 forward in the league. Suddenly he has a solid 1C and he puts up points again. Not the making of an "elite" player.

My point was its not as if McDavid has been beating out a ton of elite talent here, anymore than who Jagr was beating out 20 years ago.

 

[amnesiac]

Only a handful of great players drafted 1992-2002, Datsyuk, Iginla, Chara. Compare to 2003-2016. You could say Forsberg was the 2nd best player over a stretch of Jagr’s prime and the league was weak enough for him to just show up for the playoffs. Lindros would have been another competitor for Jagr but he was missing huge chunks of time, that weakened the league.

Yeah Giroux was 2nd in points but Crosby, Malkin, Kucherov, Ovechkin, there are some pretty fair players that had great years lesser than Mcdavid’s.

Crosby and Malkin yes, no doubt. Ovie is far from being the Art Ross scorer he was 10 season ago, Kucherov has only had a few good seasons now.... Jagr's comp were the likes of: Sakic, Forsberg, Bure Lindros, Selanne, Kariya... all HOFers. Theres just no argument for the league having better players today than 20 years ago, at all.

Keep in mind, McDavid also didnt have to deal with clutch/grab/interference, and trap system hockey. They called it the Dead Puck Era for a reason

Jagr's peak he had an avg of 0.45 PPG more than the 10th best in the league. Thats about 37 pts / 82 GP

McDavid last 2 seasons had about 0.25 PPG more than 10th. About 21 pts / 82 GP

Both are/were the most dominant of their time (so far), no question, but get back to me when McDavid has 4-5 scoring titles, and is beating his competition by a bigger margin (which may very well happen sooner than later).

 

[daver]

Claude Giroux is like 3 points behind Crosby for most points this decade lol, what's your point?

hard to take you serious as a poster if that the stuff you are going to throw around.

 

[Cotton]

The Human Highlight Reel.

 

[JackSlater]

Reading comprehension

I didn't say you're biased - I said you're insecure. Insecure in twisting a perfectly reasonable claim (that a large majority of posters - apparently including yourself - agree with) that Jagr has peaked higher than McDavid already has - into something supposedly to do about Crosby, or worst, Crosby vs Howe.

If you have any issue with some of my supposedly "ridiculous" arguments - by all means call me out on any of my posts specifically, instead of alluding to it in this underhanded way.

Insecure about what exactly? I had to assume that you meant bias as insecurity makes no sense in this context, but I guess not. I am not one of the posters who very consistently posts on the same general points, propping up the same agenda again and again. Anyone who posts regularly on this site can recognize the posters who will pop up if you write something about certain subjects (Gretzky, Lidstrom, Matthews, Finns, Russians etc.) but this case was funnier as an obvious proxy comparison. It's fairly obvious overly-defensive posting from a few posters who seek to prop Crosby (Howe was an example out of numerous possibilities, it doesn't really have anything to do with him) up and it is amusing, though I do expect to be told to get off this subject soon.

But hey - if I'm wrong, I won't see the same people elevating Crosby or attempting to downgrade his competition the next time such an opportunity emerges in a new thread, and egg will be all over my face.

There is no argument that McDavid's Art Rosses are statistically inferior to those of the players I mentioned. If you want to argue that point go right ahead. Seems you want to make yourself feel good by making up claims of bias.

Yes, very shameful of me to suggest that daver has any bias. Next I'll do something crazy like suggest that zeke tends to favour Toronto. I do think that there is an argument to be made that McDavid's scoring titles are inferior to those of some of the listed players, but somehow I don't think that that is what you meant to say.

 

[daver]

Yes, very shameful of me to suggest that daver has any bias. Next I'll do something crazy like suggest that zeke tends to favour Toronto. I do think that there is an argument to be made that McDavid's scoring titles are inferior to those of some of the listed players, but somehow I don't think that that is what you meant to say.

You can read minds now can you? What did I mean to say then other than what I said?

Not sure how picking Jagr over McDavid promotes a Crosby agenda but you sound like you are an expert on sniffing out bias where none seemingly exists.

 

[BonAppleTea]

For peak ability? Absolutely. Most players take more than 3 years to hit their peak results/season

Peak Jagr had better seasons than anytning mcdavid did so far - pretty easily too

This might be one of the dumbest things I've read on here. How is that bad even if it is his peak? I think he will be better than the last two seasons the coming years, but if you think those two years are bad peak ability then very very few people to ever play the sport has had a good peak

 

[JackSlater]

You can read minds now can you? What did I mean to say then other than what I said?

Not sure how picking Jagr over McDavid promotes a Crosby agenda but you sound like you are an expert on sniffing out bias where none seemingly exists.

Your post that I quoted implied that McDavid's Art Ross trophies were not statistically inferior to those of the players you listed - Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Ovechkin, Crosby, Thornton, Kane and Malkin. If that is what you meant to say then my mistake, obviously I was out to lunch with the idea that certain well known posters try to elevate certain players.

 

[authentic]

hard to take you serious as a poster if that the stuff you are going to throw around.

I'm actually thrilled you think that because I stopped taking you seriously a long time ago.

 

[bobholly39]

This might be one of the dumbest things I've read on here. How is that bad even if it is his peak? I think he will be better than the last two seasons the coming years, but if you think those two years are bad peak ability then very very few people to ever play the sport has had a good peak

I never said it was bad? I said it was lacking vs Jagr. Peak isn't about counting awards. Jamie Benn won a Ross, and Corey Perrey won a hart, both of which are rather weak. Not all awards are equal, unless you think Jamie Benn = Jagr?

So simply measuring McDavid's peak by counting awards isn't the best way.

I think ability-wise McDavid is already better than the results show. Last year he could have been able to hit 120+ points with better luck and such, and better pp results. Result-wise he'll likely reach Jagr and Malkin/Ov/Crosby territory for peak - but he hasn't yet. Unless you want to talk about eye test measurement, which is hugely subjective.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

A better comparable for Peak Jagr would be Peak Ovechkin. Both are wingers and both put some otherworldly offensive numbers during their respective peaks.