peak Jagr vs McDavid now

[C4R105]

Who of these two best forwards of their era was more dominant player? For me it is still Jagr whom I still consider the most dominant player since Lemieux. Mc is getting pretty damn close though.

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[bobholly39]

Jagr


What even is "mcdavid now"?
Are we talking about the eye test? Because result wise hes still lacking quite a bit. Crosby OV Malkin Jagr - maybe even a cpl more - all have better seasons than he does

I dont think anyone will be shocked if mcdavid does something ridiculous like 120+ points this year. I feel as though if/when that happens these comparisons will make more sense

 

[daver]

Too this point, McDavid hasn't matched the peak season of Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Crosby, OV, Thornton, Kane or Malkin from an offensive production standpoint.

 

[amnesiac]

Jagr was WELL above the field at his peak, whereas McDavid is only a little above at the moment

 

[JackSlater]

Need to see what McDavid does over a longer period than just a handful of games, as Jagr had a peak up there with anyone outside of the very best of all time. Interesting to see some supporters of a certain player getting openly defensive over where McDavid is placed though.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Jagr


What even is "mcdavid now"?
Are we talking about the eye test? Because result wise hes still lacking quite a bit. Crosby OV Malkin Jagr - maybe even a cpl more - all have better seasons than he does

I dont think anyone will be shocked if mcdavid does something ridiculous like 120+ points this year. I feel as though if/when that happens these comparisons will make more sense

2 art ross, 2 lindsay, 1 hart in his first 3 years in the league is lacking ?

 

[bobholly39]

2 art ross, 2 lindsay, 1 hart in his first 3 years in the league is lacking ?

For peak ability? Absolutely. Most players take more than 3 years to hit their peak results/season

Peak Jagr had better seasons than anytning mcdavid did so far - pretty easily too

 

[daver]

Need to see what McDavid does over a longer period than just a handful of games, as Jagr had a peak up there with anyone outside of the very best of all time. Interesting to see some supporters of a certain player getting openly defensive over where McDavid is placed though.

Who is doing this? The OP is asking for a comparison.

 

[JackSlater]

Who is doing this? The OP is asking for a comparison.

You, for instance.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Jagr was just a force offensively carrying his team just like McDavid now. Only difference is Jagr was MUCH better than everyone else.

 

[VictorLustig]

McDavid

 

[talitintti]

#97 hasn't put together a highly dominant season yet. Right now you gotta give the edge to Jagr, although it could change in just six months.

 

[authentic]

Jagr was WELL above the field at his peak, whereas McDavid is only a little above at the moment

I disagree. Jagr had way more offensive support to work with in his peak years even when the team overall was not very good, and he was never WELL above the field as an overall player when that field consisted of Lindros, Sakic and Forsberg. McDavid IMO is a better player than Jagr was already and he'll prove it in time.

 

[amnesiac]

I disagree. Jagr had way more offensive support to work with in his peak years even when the team overall was not very good, and he was never WELL above the field as an overall player when that field consisted of Lindros, Sakic and Forsberg. McDavid IMO is a better player than Jagr was already and he'll prove it in time.

I dont doubt McDavid could one day be better, but I dont see the argument for him being better yet.

Peak Jagr:
3 Art Rosses
98-99: 127 pts (20 pts ahead of #2 Selanne), league avg 5.27 GPG
99-00: 96 pts in 63GP and STILL won the Art Ross (wouldve won by 20-30 pts again), league avg 5.49 GPG
00-01: 121 pts (3 pts ahead of Sakic, and 25 pts ahead of Elias), league avg 5.51 GPG

Current McDavid:
2 Art Rosses
16-17: 100 pts (11 pts ahead of Crosby), league avg 5.53 GPG
17-18: 108 pts (6 pts ahead of Giroux), league avg 5.94 GPG

As for him having a better team....during his peak, Jagr's centres were Straka , Hrdina, and Lang. Hell, in 98-99 the Pens 3rd best scorer was German Titov with 56 pts. The only other star player on the team was Kovalev, and breiefly Mario in 99-00.

 

[authentic]

I dont doubt McDavid could one day be better, but I dont see the argument for him being better yet.

Peak Jagr:
3 Art Rosses
98-99: 127 pts (20 pts ahead of #2 Selanne), league avg 5.27 GPG
99-00: 96 pts in 63GP and STILL won the Art Ross (wouldve won by 20-30 pts again), league avg 5.49 GPG
00-01: 121 pts (3 pts ahead of Sakic, and 25 pts ahead of Elias), league avg 5.51 GPG

Current McDavid:
2 Art Rosses
16-17: 100 pts (11 pts ahead of Crosby), league avg 5.53 GPG
17-18: 108 pts (6 pts ahead of Giroux), league avg 5.94 GPG

As for him having a better team....during his peak, Jagr's centres were Straka , Hrdina, and Lang. Hell, in 98-99 the Pens 3rd best scorer was German Titov with 56 pts. The only other star player on the team was Kovalev, and breiefly Mario in 99-00.

Those centers you just listed are better than McDavid wingers so far. Those Pens teams were better than the current Oilers, especially offensively and it's not close at all. I'm the last person you have to list Jagr's stats and scoring margins to, but he was not far above the rest of the league, only offensively he was hence the 5 Art Ross and one Hart Trophy despite being by far the best on his own team who made the playoffs every year. To be fair though he would've won two if he played the full season in 1999-00. The eye test alone would tell you McDavid is just as dominant, infact at ES McDavid and Jagr are the two best offensive players of the past two and a half decades. Obviously McDavid's accomplishments don't match up to Jagr's yet though, he's only played 2 and a half seasons and been in the playoffs once.

 

[talitintti]

I dont doubt McDavid could one day be better, but I dont see the argument for him being better yet.

Peak Jagr:
3 Art Rosses
98-99: 127 pts (20 pts ahead of #2 Selanne), league avg 5.27 GPG
99-00: 96 pts in 63GP and STILL won the Art Ross (wouldve won by 20-30 pts again), league avg 5.49 GPG
00-01: 121 pts (3 pts ahead of Sakic, and 25 pts ahead of Elias), league avg 5.51 GPG

Current McDavid:
2 Art Rosses
16-17: 100 pts (11 pts ahead of Crosby), league avg 5.53 GPG
17-18: 108 pts (6 pts ahead of Giroux), league avg 5.94 GPG

As for him having a better team....during his peak, Jagr's centres were Straka , Hrdina, and Lang. Hell, in 98-99 the Pens 3rd best scorer was German Titov with 56 pts. The only other star player on the team was Kovalev, and breiefly Mario in 99-00.

Jagr undoubtedly has more dominant seasons, but as for goals per game, 3rd and 4th lines being deployed to score goals in today's game doesn't make scoring easier for 1st liners. 4th liners were goons that played 4 minutes a night in the 90s.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

For peak ability? Absolutely. Most players take more than 3 years to hit their peak results/season

Peak Jagr had better seasons than anytning mcdavid did so far - pretty easily too

So 5 major awards before he’s even in his peak, watch out NHL

 

[bobholly39]

So 5 major awards before he’s even in his peak, watch out NHL

I know you meant this to be sarcastic but.....yes?

Watch out NHL indeed. He's won those awards yet i think production wise his peak should still be quite a bit higher. Jagr, Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin...all had peak seasons that were more productive than McDavid. He's young - he could still surpass them all, maybe as soon as this season. But he hasn't yet.

 

[GlitchMarner]

Too this point, McDavid hasn't matched the peak season of Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Crosby, OV, Thornton, Kane or Malkin from an offensive production standpoint.

I'd add Yzerman as well.

 

[GlitchMarner]

McDavid is one of my favorite players in the League and I think he's started his career a lot better than JJ started his, but no, he's not as good as or better than peak Jagr yet. Peak Jagr was absolutely ridiculous offensively, putting up 80s style point totals in the dead puck era, where the NHL's goals per game rate was under 6.00 goals per game (whereas it was over 7.00 goals per game throughout the 1980s).

To put things into context, McDavid put up 108 points last season. He beat Giroux in scoring by six points.

Jagr scored 127 points in '99, which was a considerably lower scoring season than '18. Jagr outscored the second-higher scorer (Selanne) by a massive 20 points.


I do think McDavid is a better player than his production last season suggests, but I'd go with peak Jagr for now. I'm not sure anyone who started playing this century has a better offensive peak than Jagr (Ovechkin, Malkin or maybe Sakic has the best offensive peak in this century). Eventually McDavid may surpass his peak, though. I expect a lot from him.

 

[North Cole]

McDavid hasn't hit his peak yet, so the comparison is kind of abstract. Obviously one of the best all-time player's peak, will be more dominant than no peak.

Whether he peaks higher or not, I think he will have a better prime.

I would argue Malkin had a better peak than Jagr and I think that comparison would be more interesting. McDavid is set up to have one of the better primes in the last 25 years.

If he wins 3 of the next 4 Art Ross, or the next 2 in a row it isnt really close.

A more interesting question is - if McDavid keeps winning Art Ross and putting up 110 points. Where would we even say he has hit his peak?? Is there such a thing as being so consistent in your prime, that you dont actually peak?

 

[GlitchMarner]

A more interesting question is - if McDavid keeps winning Art Ross and putting up 110 points. Where would we even say he has hit his peak?? Is there such a thing as being so consistent in your prime, that you dont actually peak?

Crosby pretty much?

 

[North Cole]

Crosby pretty much?

I dont know. Without injuries I those seasons between 2011-2013 he was clearly pacing to have an unreal peak. But since he got injured, we are left with his 120 point season. Which is still a clear peak imo

He's certainly the poster boy for consistency, so if its anyone it probably is him. Problem is, I think OV had a better prime, so its hard for me to say.

In this thread, people are saying McDavids hasnt dominated to the effect of Jagr because he beat Giroux by 6 points etc. But if he keeps going on like that, then he could have 5/7 Art Ross and never have truly "dominated" his peers in one season.

Personally I dont think it will happen, hes too explosive and one year everything will just go right, then he will have 126 points or something ridiculous. Right now though, McDavid wins awards because hes winning the long game, he gets 3 points every 2 nights for the whole season instead of streaking like Laine or others. That's not evidence of a peak, so all we can really do is speculate.

Edit - this will hurt his all time status with some posters though. He could be known as a guy who barely won 6 art ross because his competition was weak and his peak wasnt even great

 

[daver]

You, for instance.

How so?

Here is my post:

"Too this point, McDavid hasn't matched the peak season of Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Crosby, OV, Thornton, Kane or Malkin from an offensive production standpoint."

What do you find defensive about that?

 

[daver]

Those centers you just listed are better than McDavid wingers so far. Those Pens teams were better than the current Oilers, especially offensively and it's not close at all. I'm the last person you have to list Jagr's stats and scoring margins to, but he was not far above the rest of the league, only offensively he was hence the 5 Art Ross and one Hart Trophy despite being by far the best on his own team who made the playoffs every year. To be fair though he would've won two if he played the full season in 1999-00. The eye test alone would tell you McDavid is just as dominant, infact at ES McDavid and Jagr are the two best offensive players of the past two and a half decades. Obviously McDavid's accomplishments don't match up to Jagr's yet though, he's only played 2 and a half seasons and been in the playoffs once.

When you are talking about argubly the 5th best offensive talent all-time, debating about the quality of linemates who were significantly behind both players in points becomes vey much a moot point.

Any idea that these linemates arguments close the gap in production is very sketchy. Great players produce regardless.