peak Jagr vs McDavid now

[authentic]

When you are talking about argubly the 5th best offensive talent all-time, debating about the quality of linemates who were significantly behind both players in points becomes vey much a moot point.

Any idea that these linemates arguments close the gap in production is very sketchy. Great players produce regardless.

Jagr also had even more ice time and powerplay time, and played less defense than McDavid. Jagr may have been slightly better but it's not by what the numbers suggest, and I have a feeling in the next several years we will see a few full seasons that sway the majority in favour of McDavid. I just don't think it's outlandish having watched both players to say McDavid is the slightly better talent and dominates the ice lately just as much or more.

 

[Regal]

McDavid hasn't hit his peak yet, so the comparison is kind of abstract. Obviously one of the best all-time player's peak, will be more dominant than no peak.

Whether he peaks higher or not, I think he will have a better prime.

I would argue Malkin had a better peak than Jagr and I think that comparison would be more interesting. McDavid is set up to have one of the better primes in the last 25 years.

If he wins 3 of the next 4 Art Ross, or the next 2 in a row it isnt really close.

A more interesting question is - if McDavid keeps winning Art Ross and putting up 110 points. Where would we even say he has hit his peak?? Is there such a thing as being so consistent in your prime, that you dont actually peak?

Jagr won 5 in 6 years so why wouldn't it be close?

 

[daver]

Jagr also had even more ice time and powerplay time, and played less defense than McDavid. Jagr may have been slightly better but it's not by what the numbers suggest, and I have a feeling in the next several years we will see a few full seasons that sway the majority in favour of McDavid. I just don't think it's outlandish having watched both players to say McDavid is the slightly better talent and dominates the ice lately just as much or more.

In comparison to who? McDavid? What does that matter even if it true? Jagr dominated his peers more than McDavid has so far. That's all that matters.

"Slightly better" is a severe underrating of Jagr's offensive prowess. Just because you have a feeling that McDavid will be better doesn't make it OK to overrate what he has accomplished so far.

 

[daver]

McDavid hasn't hit his peak yet, so the comparison is kind of abstract. Obviously one of the best all-time player's peak, will be more dominant than no peak.

Whether he peaks higher or not, I think he will have a better prime.

I would argue Malkin had a better peak than Jagr and I think that comparison would be more interesting. McDavid is set up to have one of the better primes in the last 25 years.

If he wins 3 of the next 4 Art Ross, or the next 2 in a row it isnt really close.

A more interesting question is - if McDavid keeps winning Art Ross and putting up 110 points. Where would we even say he has hit his peak?? Is there such a thing as being so consistent in your prime, that you dont actually peak?

Based on what? I think they are about the same but Jagr spent far more time at his peak or close to it than Malkin.

 

[JackSlater]

How so?

You and another noted defender of crosby rushing in to put McDavid's peak offence below several players that he has a debatable case against. I think it is more reasonable than the attempts to make a case for crosby vs Howe down the road though.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

When you are talking about argubly the 5th best offensive talent all-time, debating about the quality of linemates who were significantly behind both players in points becomes vey much a moot point.

Any idea that these linemates arguments close the gap in production is very sketchy. Great players produce regardless.

Funny, when it's Crosby vs whoever (usually OV/Malkin) you are the first to bring up that Crosby plays with inferior linemates.

 

[North Cole]

Jagr won 5 in 6 years so why wouldn't it be close?

I guess it would be close at that point in time. However, I'm also assuming that McDavid will win a Hart in one of those years. McDavid would be entering his physical prime of 25 years old with 5 art ross. I mean, there's people that put Crosby above Jagr career wise, and he doesnt have 5 Art Ross.

Jagr lacks other trophies

 

[North Cole]

Based on what? I think they are about the same but Jagr spent far more time at his peak or close to it than Malkin.

Of course it's close that's why I said it would be a better comparison.

Where was Jagrs playoffs in his prime? Malkin had one of the best playoffs in the last 20 years, rivaling Wayne and Lemieux.

Tough to refute Jagrs 89-99 season and he has the Hart to back it up. If we are only looking at regular season then its Jagr. If playoffs is include I give a slight edge to Malkin. If you disagree that's fine.

 

[daver]

Funny, when it's Crosby vs whoever (usually OV/Malkin) you are the first to bring up that Crosby plays with inferior linemates.

I point out that he plays, and still produces, with linemates that are far down on his team's depth charts which allows for the Pen to roll two or three scoring lines. That;s different from throwing out the linemate argument.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Mcdavid will surely go down as the better player. But peak for now it’s jagr.

 

[bobholly39]

You and another noted defender of crosby rushing in to put McDavid's peak offence below several players that he has a debatable case against. I think it is more reasonable than the attempts to make a case for crosby vs Howe down the road though.

Sounds like you have an insecurity complex or something

McDavid's best season so far is 108 points. Beating out 31yr old Giroux by 6 points. It's a good year, a great year even if you want - but Jagr has a case for the best peak season outside the big 4. Malkin/OV/Crosby all 3 also have better seasons than McDavid so far imo.

So yeah - unbiasedly, objectively, the answer to the poll is Jagr.

Being so insecure as to see bias and conspiracy theories everywhere is your issue - not mine. Crosby and Howe have nothing to do with this poll.

 

[OilCanada92]

Since February 1st, McDavid has 30 goals and 65 points in 38 games (65 goal/140 point pace). I guess it depends on if you think that's going to be the new normal for him or just a long hot streak.

 

[JackSlater]

Sounds like you have an insecurity complex or something

McDavid's best season so far is 108 points. Beating out 31yr old Giroux by 6 points. It's a good year, a great year even if you want - but Jagr has a case for the best peak season outside the big 4. Malkin/OV/Crosby all 3 also have better seasons than McDavid so far imo.

So yeah - unbiasedly, objectively, the answer to the poll is Jagr.

Being so insecure as to see bias and conspiracy theories everywhere is your issue - not mine. Crosby and Howe have nothing to do with this poll.

Aha, basically "I'm not biased... YOU ARE!". I have no particular interest in Jagr, McDavid or Crosby in terms of championing one or another, and as I said that Jagr is the answer I don't really know what your point is supposed to be. I see no conspiracy here given how obvious it is but I do see the same posters with the same basic agenda (or often ridiculous arguments), in this case trying to downplay the new, significant threat to a certain player's place in hockey history (and present for that matter). I had to laugh this time because it isn't even a direct comparison but a proxy comparison, but there were the same old names.

 

[McFlash97]

Jagr is the 3rd greatest offensive forward in hockey history. For McDavid to already be in this conversation by age 21 is frightening.

 

[psycat]

I dont know. Without injuries I those seasons between 2011-2013 he was clearly pacing to have an unreal peak. But since he got injured, we are left with his 120 point season. Which is still a clear peak imo

He's certainly the poster boy for consistency, so if its anyone it probably is him. Problem is, I think OV had a better prime, so its hard for me to say.

In this thread, people are saying McDavids hasnt dominated to the effect of Jagr because he beat Giroux by 6 points etc. But if he keeps going on like that, then he could have 5/7 Art Ross and never have truly "dominated" his peers in one season.

Personally I dont think it will happen, hes too explosive and one year everything will just go right, then he will have 126 points or something ridiculous. Right now though, McDavid wins awards because hes winning the long game, he gets 3 points every 2 nights for the whole season instead of streaking like Laine or others. That's not evidence of a peak, so all we can really do is speculate.

Edit - this will hurt his all time status with some posters though. He could be known as a guy who barely won 6 art ross because his competition was weak and his peak wasnt even great

But Jagr actually have 5 Ross? 4 of which in a row and without injuries/Lemieux he could very well had 6, 7. To me Jagr in peak offence peak is somewhere between the regular mortals and Lemieux/Gretzky I am not entirely convinced McDavid will reach that tier but he very well could. As of now this is not even close.

 

[psycat]

Jagr is the 3rd greatest offensive forward in hockey history. For McDavid to already be in this conversation by age 21 is frightening.

Well he shouldn't be, there are like 15-20(if not more) players who had peak seasons that eclipse or rival McDavids best so far.

 

[Silky mitts]

Jagr was WELL above the field at his peak, whereas McDavid is only a little above at the moment

Much stronger league now

 

[GlitchMarner]

Much stronger league now

Than in the late 90s/early 00s? I don't know about that.

 

[authentic]

Since February 1st, McDavid has 30 goals and 65 points in 38 games (65 goal/140 point pace). I guess it depends on if you think that's going to be the new normal for him or just a long hot streak.

That's nearly identical to Crosby's first 38 games in 2010-11, he had 32 goals and 65 points.

 

[Laveuglette]

Much stronger league now

This is a myth

 

[authentic]

Than in the late 90s/early 00s? I don't know about that.

It is, not really debatable either, but people will go ahead and do that anyway. It's not a whopping difference but it's quite clearly a better and more talented league from top to bottom today.

 

[authentic]

This is a myth

Go watch some games from the late 90s. Your average goalie would be back up material today, half the defensemen on every team were very slow and depth players were crap. The overall pace of the game and speed of most skilled players was worse as well, if you don't believe me watch some games from both eras side by side.

 

[amnesiac]

Much stronger league now

Based on what exactly? .... I mean, Claude Giroux finished 2nd in scoring last season. How strong is today's league exactly?

Jagr was putting up 120 pts with Martin Straka, and was 20 pts ahead of #2 in the lowest scoring era of all-time. If anything it was MUCH harder to score back then than it is now.

 

[amnesiac]

It is, not really debatable either, but people will go ahead and do that anyway. It's not a whopping difference but it's quite clearly a better and more talented league from top to bottom today.

thats all relative, though. Of course ALL athletes in ALL sports are more talented today than they were 20 years ago.

This isnt about if McDavid would put up as many pts in the late 90s as Jagr.... I mean, of course he would. This is a question of who was more dominant in their given era.

No one will ever say Brent Burns was better than say, Ray Bourque, since he would put up more pts in the 80s.

 

[authentic]

Based on what exactly? .... I mean, Claude Giroux finished 2nd in scoring last season. How strong is today's league exactly?

Jagr was putting up 120 pts with Martin Straka, and was 20 pts ahead of #2 in the lowest scoring era of all-time. If anything it was MUCH harder to score back then than it is now.

Claude Giroux is like 3 points behind Crosby for most points this decade lol, what's your point?