Peak Forsberg and Jagr vs. Peak Crosby and Malkin

[Beauner]

So Jagr had something comparable to a multiple ross winner on the 2nd line? If you mean Francis then come on lol. Francis never came close to sniffing a ross or hart, Malkin is a way better player than him.

He still had 87 points in 97/98. But I think he really meant the Kovalev-Lang-Straka line which was absolutely unreal for a couple years. I was pretty young then but even younger-me was in awe of how they played together.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I don't think you'll find any Penguins fan saying Jagr was a better player than Crosby at this point. Before the back to backs most certainly an argument. But, with those Conn Smythes, another Rocket, and another 100 point season he's clearly solidified himself as the better player and arguably the best PENGUIN in history.

As any Pens fan born in the '80s, Jags was obviously a favorite. Personally, I was more into Straka and Kovalev during those times, but it'd be stupid to say I didn't like Jagr when he was a Penguin.

Also, Francis was here in 97-98 (then went to Carolina and had multiple 70-80 pt seasons) and then the KLS line was here until Lemieux returned. So, Jagr had a comparable to Malkin on the 2nd line pretty much every year without Lemieux.

The fact that you actually believe that Crosby has an argument for being better Lemieux as the Pens best only shows how your love for him has clouded your judgement and skewed your overall hockey sense. That’s the most stupid statement I’ve read. Ask ANY fan, and you will get your rude awakening.

I think most logical Pen and overall fans wouldn’t act like Jagr isn’t evens worthy enough to hold Crosby’s jock strap.

Like I stated, Crosby has clearly had the better career, but player to player, talent to talent, it’s closer than you would like to admit. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Stop name dropping Francis already, it’s pathetic and totally desperate. Jagr had his best seasons WITHOUT him, and he didn’t need him either way. Let that die and stop trying to use it to challenge Jagrs production. You don’t see me using the fact that Crosby has had Malkin on the PP, making producing easier, do you? No, besause it doesn’t matter. Both can produce no matter what and both have shown that.

I think Jagr has in general had very strong production in the playoffs. But for a player of his caliber that's simply not enough - you also want at least a couple of performances where he puts the team on his back and has a heroic/smythe worthy run. He had none of those in his elongated prime/peak.

Crosby, Malkin and Forsberg have multiple of those, in comparison.

I think it's fair to give an significant advantage to the other 3 for playoffs.

I don't count 91 and 92 as part of Jagr's prime or peak. Great performance and they add to his legacy - but those penguins wins were mostly on the back of Lemieux, so it's a bit different.

I do hate that Jagr gets too much flack for supposedly bad playoffs usually - they're not bad, they're really good overall. But compared to better playoff players - they are not as good, which is the case here.

He’s obviously a strong playoff performer, he just didn’t have a team good enough to make up for that gap in offense, Crosby did.

No they haven’t....never have any of those players “put the team on his back/heroic runs smythes.” So why hold a that standard to Jagr when neither of the other 3 have done that? Again, more bias AGAINST Jagr while creating a false reality that has never happened.

I don’t either, but he still won 2 cups and contributed, more so in ‘92 with a great performance.

Bringing out the bandwagon shots. That's when you know you're losing an argument against Pens fans...

Don’t try to turn the tables on me. Your the one comparing two players, while obviously had never watched one of them play during his prime. Your opinion falls short because of that, and you being a “fan” gets called into question for obvious reasons.

So who are you to say one is better than the other when you have no right to hold that judgement? I’ll wait.....

 

[GreatGonzo]

He still had 87 points in 97/98. But I think he really meant the Kovalev-Lang-Straka line which was absolutely unreal for a couple years. I was pretty young then but even younger-me was in awe of how they played together.

All it was, was a desperate attempt to try to push this idea that Jagr has had plenty of help and has no excuses as to why he never had more playoffs success after Lemieux, and they tried to find a player that has some equality to Malkin, When bringing up Malkin while talking about overall team talent and team achievements.

Francis, Straka, Lang, Kovalev.....these players are no where near the level of Malkin. And they obviously had very little impact when it came to the playoffs.

Point is, Jagr...during his peak/prime, didn’t have the talent around him compared to Crosby.

 

[Gurglesons]

The fact that you actually believe that Crosby has an argument for being better Lemieux as the Pens best only shows how your love for him has clouded your judgement and skewed your overall hockey sense. That’s the most stupid statement I’ve read. Ask ANY fan, and you will get your rude awakening.

I think most logical Pen and overall fans wouldn’t act like Jagr isn’t evens worthy enough to hold Crosby’s jock strap.

Like I stated, Crosby has clearly had the better career, but player to player, talent to talent, it’s closer than you would like to admit. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Stop name dropping Francis already, it’s pathetic and totally desperate. Jagr had his best seasons WITHOUT him, and he didn’t need him either way. Let that die and stop trying to use it to challenge Jagrs production. You don’t see me using the fact that Crosby has had Malkin on the PP, making producing easier, do you? No, besause it doesn’t matter. Both can produce no matter what and both have shown that.

He’s obviously a strong playoff performer, he just didn’t have a team good enough to make up for that gap in offense, Crosby did.

No they haven’t....never have any of those players “put the team on his back/heroic runs smythes.” So why hold a that standard to Jagr when neither of the other 3 have done that? Again, more bias AGAINST Jagr while creating a false reality that has never happened.

I don’t either, but he still won 2 cups and contributed, more so in ‘92 with a great performance.

Don’t try to turn the tables on me. Your the one comparing two players, while obviously had never watched one of them play during his prime. Your opinion falls short because of that, and you being a “fan” gets called into question for obvious reasons.

So who are you to say one is better than the other when you have no right to hold that judgement? I’ll wait.....

Crosby as a Penguin has an argument against Lemieux as a Penguin in terms of the success he has had here.

We’ve discussed it many times on the Penguins board where I and many you have quoted post.

 

[Beauner]

Don’t try to turn the tables on me. Your the one comparing two players, while obviously had never watched one of them play during his prime. Your opinion falls short because of that, and you being a “fan” gets called into question for obvious reasons.

So who are you to say one is better than the other when you have no right to hold that judgement? I’ll wait.....

Yikes. The very first jersey I ever owned was a Robo Pen Jagr jersey.

I guess when an entire fanbase is telling you you're wrong about one of the franchises greats, you just default to telling people they never saw him

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Crosby as a Penguin has an argument against Lemieux as a Penguin in terms of the success he has had here.

We’ve discussed it many times on the Penguins board where I and many you have quoted post.

Lol why do you keep saying "as a penguin"? Both guys only played for the pens. So if you think Crosby has an argument "as a penguin" against Lemieux, that means you think he has an argument against Lemieux overall. Not sure what it would be though considering Lemieux beats (destroys) Crosby in pretty much everything.

 

[Gurglesons]

Lol why do you keep saying "as a penguin"? Both guys only played for the pens. So if you think Crosby has an argument "as a penguin" against Lemieux, that means you think he has an argument against Lemieux overall. Not sure what it would be though considering Lemieux beats (destroys) Crosby in pretty much everything.

Aside from the fact Crosby has four Smythe worthy playoff runs and has taken the Penguins to four cup finals as the best player in three of them.

I guess you with the Caps screen name and the guy with the Flyers avatar know more about the Pens than us tho.

 

[Future GOAT]

Aside from the fact Crosby has four Smythe worthy playoff runs and has taken the Penguins to four cup finals as the best player in three of them.

I guess you with the Caps screen name and the guy with the Flyers avatar know more about the Pens than us tho.

Crosby has 2 Smythes. One of them being widely viewed as undeserved and among the worst Smythes ever awarded. This "4 Smythe worthy runs" is basically an anecdote.... from a Crosby fan no less.

 

[Gurglesons]

Crosby has 2 Smythes. One of them being widely viewed as undeserved and among the worst Smythes ever awarded. This "4 Smythe worthy runs" is basically an anecdote.... from a Crosby fan no less.

The argument is a discussion between Pens fans on the merits of Lemieux and Crosby and their legacies as a Penguin.

There is an argument for Crosby in our eyes. We do not see the Smythe as widely undeserved.

But, please. Tell us more about our team.

 

[Varan]

The argument is a discussion between Pens fans on the merits of Lemieux and Crosby and their legacies as a Penguin.

There is an argument for Crosby in our eyes. We do not see the Smythe as widely undeserved.

But, please. Tell us more about our team.

It would make sense if Mario played on another team for most of his career and jumped to the Pens somewhere in between and had success. But since he played for the Pens from start to finish, his TOTAL legacy is called into the argument, not just "as a Penguin". So you're basically making the argument that there is some sort of case (through mental gymnastics) where Crosby > Lemieux. If you're actually making that argument... you've surpassed daver in blind homerism.

Of course you don't because he's your favourite player. Anyone outside of Pittsburgh knows that it's undeserved, hell we're still talking about it today. You see people bringing it up in posts that have nothing to do with Crosby. That's how bad it was.

You don't have to religiously watch a team to know about its history and talk about them.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yikes. The very first jersey I ever owned was a Robo Pen Jagr jersey.

I guess when an entire fanbase is telling you you're wrong about one of the franchises greats, you just default to telling people they never saw him

“Entire fanbase” as in you and a few others who simply don’t like Jagr and that spills over into your opinions on who was better? Ya I get it.

The argument is a discussion between Pens fans on the merits of Lemieux and Crosby and their legacies as a Penguin.

There is an argument for Crosby in our eyes. We do not see the Smythe as widely undeserved.

But, please. Tell us more about our team.

I don’t understand why your still trying to talk in s general sense, as if many actually share your opinion. No one in there right mind would think Crosby was greater or better in any way than Lemieux. What exactly has Crosby done as a Pen or player that gives this any debate? Lemieux saved the franchise as a player, brought them their first two cups with two performances that are among the greatest NOT named Gretzky, beat cancer and returned only to once again dominate, AGAIN helped save the struggling franchise as owner......

Seriously, outside of your narrow views of just watching Crosby and only Crosby, establishing this connection, what has Crosby done?

Maybe the argument lies within your small, probably VERY small circle of Crosby lovers, but definitely not within your fan base. You
Don’t need to be a hardcore Pens fan to know the obvious, and that’s that Crosby isn’t in the same class as Lemieux.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Aside from the fact Crosby has four Smythe worthy playoff runs and has taken the Penguins to four cup finals as the best player in three of them.

I guess you with the Caps screen name and the guy with the Flyers avatar know more about the Pens than us tho.

So now we are once again moving the goal posts and defying logic by adding make believe smythes? Sounds about right.

One of Mario’s Smythes are superior to both of Crosby’s and all 4 of his cup runs. No amount of fantasy changes that.

Also best player in 3 of them? More homerism? No need to make it sound so cut and dry, his 2016 Smythe is clearly not one that makes this undisputed, while his ‘08 run is also very arguable. So now we’re going from your make believe world where “almost smythes” are the same as actually winning, and he was “clearly” the best player 3/4 of those runs.

I’m not surprised by your constant blind run a round. We get it, Crosby is your favorite and you will go through great lengths to even convince yourself that your for sure right on all counts. Hilarious!

 

[Gurglesons]

So now we are once again moving the goal posts and defying logic by adding make believe smythes? Sounds about right.

One of Mario’s Smythes are superior to both of Crosby’s and all 4 of his cup runs. No amount of fantasy changes that.

Also best player in 3 of them? More homerism? No need to make it sound so cut and dry, his 2016 Smythe is clearly not one that makes this undisputed, while his ‘08 run is also very arguable. So now we’re going from your make believe world where “almost smythes” are the same as actually winning, and he was “clearly” the best player 3/4 of those runs.

I’m not surprised by your constant blind run a round. We get it, Crosby is your favorite and you will go through great lengths to even convince yourself that your for sure right on all counts. Hilarious!

Kovalev and Letang are my favorite Penguins of all time. But okay.

I prefer Lemieux to Crosby.

Jagr or Crosby, Pens Career

Here’s the most recent thread I care to pull up for a bunch of Crosby haters.

 

[Beauner]

“Entire fanbase” as in you and a few others who simply don’t like Jagr and that spills over into your opinions on who was better? Ya I get it.

So stating Crosby is better than Jagr means we don't like Jagr okay, got it

 

[bobbyking]

Imagine Forsberg and Jagr playing with the way the game is called now.

Yeah maybe forsberg could score over 30

 

[Future GOAT]

So stating Crosby is better than Jagr means we don't like Jagr okay, got it

It's a pretty safe assumption on his part considering there have been some vocal Pens fans on these boards that have been quite open about the fact that they don't like Jagr for his past transgressions as a Penguin. It's not a stretch to think that bias (both recency and general) will affect their judgement on things "Jagr".

 

[GreatGonzo]

So stating Crosby is better than Jagr means we don't like Jagr okay, got it

Don’t be that guy. People in this thread have been over glorifying Crosby while talking down to jagr, many of them citing “leadership” and how much they didn’t like him as a person, or how “90s nostalgia” makes him overrated. Same with Forsberg. There is an obvious dislike for his character, and little talk about how amazing he actually was. All I’m saying is It’s closer between the two than most like to admit, but they let their feelings get in the way of their judgement.

Those who ACTUALLY watched both know, but there is a lot of that lacking here. Many just remember Jagr as the selfish egotistical star who jumped from team to team.

Kovalev and Letang are my favorite Penguins of all time. But okay.

I prefer Lemieux to Crosby.

Jagr or Crosby, Pens Career

Here’s the most recent thread I care to pull up for a bunch of Crosby haters.

You do realize Kovalev was lazy AND egotistical right? And only played on the Pens for a short time, while Letang is obvious a new addition. So basically your contradicting yourself.

You prefer? Well I’m glad you “prefer” him, but he’s still better in anything and everything hockey related.

Ok? So are you going to avoid the fact that you stated that your fan base has Crosby in debate with being THE best pen of all time, but instead you show me a poll between who is the second best, obviously citing that Lemieux is in fact above both....

Your all over the place buddy.

 

[SeanConn]

but... Jagr and Forsberg are not even a duo, they've never played together other than maybe a NA- vs World All Star Game way back when lol.

Jagr and Foppa def would outclass Crosby and Malkin, if we're talking absolute peak here... come on lol

EDIT: Blows my mind Jagr is being belittled as much as he is in this thread, holy crap.

They dude was the top scorer of the 1990's and 2000's... he won 5 Art Rosses, 4 in a row, and came close to winning a 6th in his comeback year, where he was inched out for the Art Ross and Rocket by Thornton and Cheechoo.

Jagr is the second best player to ever play for the Penguins, widely the greatest European forward ever, and was an absolute force during his prime.

let's not forget he's #2 all time in scoring too, and like top 5 in games played, show some respect for an absolute LEGEND.

 

[Gurglesons]

Don’t be that guy. People in this thread have been over glorifying Crosby while talking down to jagr, many of them citing “leadership” and how much they didn’t like him as a person, or how “90s nostalgia” makes him overrated. Same with Forsberg. There is an obvious dislike for his character, and little talk about how amazing he actually was. All I’m saying is It’s closer between the two than most like to admit, but they let their feelings get in the way of their judgement.

Those who ACTUALLY watched both know, but there is a lot of that lacking here. Many just remember Jagr as the selfish egotistical star who jumped from team to team.

You do realize Kovalev was lazy AND egotistical right? And only played on the Pens for a short time, while Letang is obvious a new addition. So basically your contradicting yourself.

You prefer? Well I’m glad you “prefer” him, but he’s still better in anything and everything hockey related.

Ok? So are you going to avoid the fact that you stated that your fan base has Crosby in debate with being THE best pen of all time, but instead you show me a poll between who is the second best, obviously citing that Lemieux is in fact above both....

Your all over the place buddy.

Crosby has an argument as having more success than Lemieux as a Penguin. He’s been to twice as many finals and as many conference finals as Lemieux.

I think Lemieux is the better Penguin, but there is no reason to belittle that Crosby has been just as important to the franchise.

 

[Gurglesons]

but... Jagr and Forsberg are not even a duo, they've never played together other than maybe a NA- vs World All Star Game way back when lol.

Jagr and Foppa def would outclass Crosby and Malkin, if we're talking absolute peak here... come on lol

EDIT: Blows my mind Jagr is being belittled as much as he is in this thread, holy crap.

They dude was the top scorer of the 1990's and 2000's... he won 5 Art Rosses, 4 in a row, and came close to winning a 6th in his comeback year, where he was inched out for the Art Ross and Rocket by Thornton and Cheechoo.

Jagr is the second best player to ever play for the Penguins, widely the greatest European forward ever, and was an absolute force during his prime.

let's not forget he's #2 all time in scoring too, and like top 5 in games played, show some respect for an absolute LEGEND.

Why is 2006 Jags comeback year?

He’s 2nd all time in scoring because he spent 29-45 being a merc and padding his totals.

 

[bobholly39]

He’s obviously a strong playoff performer, he just didn’t have a team good enough to make up for that gap in offense, Crosby did.

No they haven’t....never have any of those players “put the team on his back/heroic runs smythes.” So why hold a that standard to Jagr when neither of the other 3 have done that? Again, more bias AGAINST Jagr while creating a false reality that has never happened.

I don’t either, but he still won 2 cups and contributed, more so in ‘92 with a great performance.

Funny - when I first saw your reply to me I thought you were telling me that Lemieux is better than Crosby and i was wondering what in the world I might have said to ever imply otherwise....

If you don't like the exact wording of "put the team on his back/heroric run smythes" you can change the wording. But:

Crosby in 2008, 2009, 2016, 2017.
Malkin in 2009, 2017
Forsberg has a few really strong 3 round performances, which is better than Jagr has, though no "cup runs" like Crosby and Malkin where he stood out as much, since neither 96 nor 2001 was he likely even top 3 importance.

But - the point is - Jagr is very weak in such runs, and those types of runs are of critical value to a player's overall playoff worth. Jagr is more of a playoff compiler. This has value - and it's not all his fault, different teams/opportunities maybe plays into it - but it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day in the playoffs you're judged off accomplishments, and Jagr has no real such great playoff run in his prime that compares to those of the other guys. So net advantage to Crosby/Malkin duo there.

 

[Albatros]

He’s 2nd all time in scoring because he spent 29-45 being a merc and padding his totals.

Including four years as a "merc" in Russia.

 

[SeanConn]

Why is 2006 Jags comeback year?

He’s 2nd all time in scoring because he spent 29-45 being a merc and padding his totals.

just look at his stats and tell me that was not a comeback to greatness...

 

[Syrinx]

It's a pretty safe assumption on his part considering there have been some vocal Pens fans on these boards that have been quite open about the fact that they don't like Jagr for his past transgressions as a Penguin. It's not a stretch to think that bias (both recency and general) will affect their judgement on things "Jagr".

And there are a lot of Pens fans who like Jagr more but realize that Crosby is just better and has done more for the team and the city.

 

[bathdog]

And there are a lot of Pens fans who like Jagr more but realize that Crosby is just better and has done more for the team and the city.