Peak Forsberg and Jagr vs. Peak Crosby and Malkin

[Gurglesons]

I wouldn’t say that either. The Pens during Lemieuxs era were dysfunctional and top heavy for a majority of his years there. Lemieux didn’t play for the ‘95 season and only played 22 games in ‘94. Those are 2 prime years where he wasn’t able to contribute much. Very similar to Crosby from ‘2011-13, all those injuries definitely hurt the Pens playoff chances, would you say.

You can argue Crosby being more successful but that’s more or less because he had a much better ran team than Lemieux did. Lemieux never had.

I don’t remember the mid 80s. But from 90-97 the Penguins basically had an open checkbook. The “much better ran team” means nothing when the GM spent the majority of our cap on defensemen like Brooks Orpik and Michalek leaving Crosby and Malkin to play with the Jussi Jokinen, Steve Sullivan, and Lee Stempniaks of the world.

Kind of similar to the Pens organization and coaching when Jagr was at his best with no Lemieux....

Using your logic, it was actually Crosby’s lack of leadership. You know, the Pens “X-Factor” to their playoff success and the main reason why he’s a better Pen than Jagr. Unless you think he magically gained better leadership abilities in 2016.

Weird how when the Pens weren’t winning, it’s management, but when the Pens started winning, it was Crosby’s Leadership that tipped the scales in their favor.

Weird how the 98-01 Pens were shaped around Jagr’s wishes to get him to stay here and he still asked for a trade out multiple times.

Jagr was never the # 1 guy on a team that made a conference final. Sid has been the # 1 guy on every cup final they’ve been to in his era.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I don’t remember the mid 80s. But from 90-97 the Penguins basically had an open checkbook. The “much better ran team” means nothing when the GM spent the majority of our cap on defensemen like Brooks Orpik and Michalek leaving Crosby and Malkin to play with the Jussi Jokinen, Steve Sullivan, and Lee Stempniaks of the world.


Weird how the 98-01 Pens were shaped around Jagr’s wishes to get him to stay here and he still asked for a trade out multiple times.

Jagr was never the # 1 guy on a team that made a conference final. Sid has been the # 1 guy on every cup final they’ve been to in his era.

Which is precisely why they were in such financial trouble before drafting Lemieux and down the road within the early 2000s. The Pens were a “powerhouse” from ‘91-‘93, where they won 2 cups only to be upset in ‘93 for the three-peat. Before and after that, they lacked a lot that was needed. Lemieux alone can’t carry any and every team, even Gretzky couldn’t.

I’m once again not saying it’s right, but you can’t continue to blame him for his teams failures over and over again just because it’s convenient. It’s lazy and just flat out false. You once again attack him as a person while debating his talent as a player. Let’s separate the two shall we? You act like Crosby and Malkin are angels with no history of pushing the limits. They get away with it because they are stars, and they know this.

Wow two false statements. So your saying it’s insane to imagine a team with Jagr AND Lemieux making it to the conference finals instead of just Jagr, while holding it against Jagr that he was the second go to guy behind Mario Lemieux......MARIO LEMIEUX. Did Crosby ever take a team to the conference finals or finals without Malkin? Nope. Has Crosby been outplayed by his own teammates in the playoffs? Yup. Weird, right? The only person to out play Jagr in the playoffs, was Lemieux. He was their number one playoff guy from ‘97-‘00. He just didn’t have much secondary scoring.

Crosby wasn’t the undisputed “number one guy” every cup run. He didn’t even lead his team in production for any of his cup championship runs. Malkin lead 2 of them with one being a Smythe win, while Kessel did 1 while narrowly losing to Crosby. Sure, it sounds amazing when you ignore the context, but it only further shows how you love to edit and filter everything through your logic, which is pretty faulty....sorry to break it to you.

 

[Gurglesons]

Which is precisely why they were in such financial trouble before drafting Lemieux and down the road within the early 2000s. The Pens were a “powerhouse” from ‘91-‘93, where they won 2 cups only to be upset in ‘93 for the three-peat. Before and after that, they lacked a lot that was needed. Lemieux alone can’t carry any and every team, even Gretzky couldn’t.

Why do you have "powerhouse" in quotations? The Pens from 90 - 93 are arguably the third best team in the history of the game.

The Penguins were also stacked in 94, 95, and 96. No idea why you are going this road with someone that was actually a fan of the team around this time. Not really sure what you are even arguing here. The 90-93 Pens squads would've literally skated circles around the 15-16 Pens (IMO the best Crosby squad). Jagr wasn't even a top three forward on those teams. When can you say that about Sid? Your argument is because Kessel played third line and had more points than Sid playing 1st line minutes in 15-16, Sid had amazing support. A joke of a concept.

I’m once again not saying it’s right, but you can’t continue to blame him for his teams failures over and over again just because it’s convenient. It’s lazy and just flat out false. You once again attack him as a person while debating his talent as a player. Let’s separate the two shall we? You act like Crosby and Malkin are angels with no history of pushing the limits. They get away with it because they are stars, and they know this.

It's not that is convenient. It is that Jagr was a whiny bitch during 98-01. He's the definition of a lone wolf. Notice how his career went after the KHL?

Wow two false statements. So your saying it’s insane to imagine a team with Jagr AND Lemieux making it to the conference finals instead of just Jagr, while holding it against Jagr that he was the second go to guy behind Mario Lemieux......MARIO LEMIEUX. Did Crosby ever take a team to the conference finals or finals without Malkin? Nope. Has Crosby been outplayed by his own teammates in the playoffs? Yup. Weird, right? The only person to out play Jagr in the playoffs, was Lemieux. He was their number one playoff guy from ‘97-‘00. He just didn’t have much secondary scoring.

Speaking of false statements. Jagr got outscored by Straka and tied with Kovy in 98-99 in the playoffs. Jagr played with at least two HHOF pretty much every year of his career until 98.

Malkin is an amazing player. But comparing him to teams that had prime Stevens, Zubov, Luc Robitaille, Coffey, Murphy, Francis, Barrasso (Who should be in the hall despite his attitude), Tocchet, Mullen, is just a straight up joke.

The best Penguins wingers to play a full season during the Sid and Crosby era are Chris Kunitz, Phil Kessel, and Bill Guerin. Think about that.

From day one Crosby was THE GUY on the Penguins. Jagr wasn't the guy until the lockout in 93-94. And even then he had Tocchet, Mullen, Francis, Stevens, Straka, and Murphy all behind him. (And still couldn't win the Ross that year).

2009 is the only year that you have an argument for Sid getting outplayed by his own teammates. And even then. Sid was huge in the first two series and Malkin cleaned up in Carolina. The difference between them was the Finals that year and I don't think a single Penguins fan would argue that Sid was better than Malkin. At no other point was Sid outplayed in a finals in his career. Kinda tough to be the apex predator in four finals runs. Point to me someone outside of Lemieux and Gretzky that was. Oh wait. 83-84 is a thing.

Crosby wasn’t the undisputed “number one guy” every cup run. He didn’t even lead his team in production for any of his cup championship runs. Malkin lead 2 of them with one being a Smythe win, while Kessel did 1 while narrowly losing to Crosby. Sure, it sounds amazing when you ignore the context, but it only further shows how you love to edit and filter everything through your logic, which is pretty faulty....sorry to break it to you.

Points aren't everything in hockey. Maybe one day you'll grasp that and actually sit back and be able to enjoy what a unique talent Crosby has been. I know my fellow Pens fans have.

Also, guess who else never lead their team in production on the way to a cup win. Forsberg and Jagr.

They weren't even in the top two like Sid has been every Cup win.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Why do you have "powerhouse" in quotations? The Pens from 90 - 93 are arguably the third best team in the history of the game.

The Penguins were also stacked in 94, 95, and 96. No idea why you are going this road with someone that was actually a fan of the team around this time. Not really sure what you are even arguing here. The 90-93 Pens squads would've literally skated circles around the 15-16 Pens (IMO the best Crosby squad). Jagr wasn't even a top three forward on those teams. When can you say that about Sid? Your argument is because Kessel played third line and had more points than Sid playing 1st line minutes in 15-16, Sid had amazing support. A joke of a concept.


It's not that is convenient. It is that Jagr was a whiny ***** during 98-01. He's the definition of a lone wolf. Notice how his career went after the KHL?

Speaking of false statements. Jagr got outscored by Straka and tied with Kovy in 98-99 in the playoffs. Jagr played with at least two HHOF pretty much every year of his career until 98.

Malkin is an amazing player. But comparing him to teams that had prime Stevens, Zubov, Luc Robitaille, Coffey, Murphy, Francis, Barrasso (Who should be in the hall despite his attitude), Tocchet, Mullen, is just a straight up joke.

The best Penguins wingers to play a full season during the Sid and Crosby era are Chris Kunitz, Phil Kessel, and Bill Guerin. Think about that.

From day one Crosby was THE GUY on the Penguins. Jagr wasn't the guy until the lockout in 93-94. And even then he had Tocchet, Mullen, Francis, Stevens, Straka, and Murphy all behind him. (And still couldn't win the Ross that year).

2009 is the only year that you have an argument for Sid getting outplayed by his own teammates. And even then. Sid was huge in the first two series and Malkin cleaned up in Carolina. The difference between them was the Finals that year and I don't think a single Penguins fan would argue that Sid was better than Malkin. At no other point was Sid outplayed in a finals in his career. Kinda tough to be the apex predator in four finals runs. Point to me someone outside of Lemieux and Gretzky that was. Oh wait. 83-84 is a thing.


Points aren't everything in hockey. Maybe one day you'll grasp that and actually sit back and be able to enjoy what a unique talent Crosby has been. I know my fellow Pens fans have.

Also, guess who else never lead their team in production on the way to a cup win. Forsberg and Jagr.

They weren't even in the top two like Sid has been every Cup win.

Because Lemieux was in and out of the line up a majority of those years, it was hard to
Maintain the teams overall dynamic. The ‘93 team was one of the better of those teams but they got upset.

Jagr wasn’t a “top 3 forward” yet because he was young and had just came into the league. But of course you ignore that minor detail because context to you means you have no argument to begin with.

Kessels line was more consistent and more
Impactful than Crosby’s a majority of the playoffs. They were the main reason why they escaped the second round when Crosby was a no show. But again, ignore that detail.

How his career went after? Notice how old he was? Once again, please keep ignoring the context

You mean the year Straka played 4 more games than Jagr and only had 3 more points? Once again, CONTEXT I wonder how many times Crosby has been out scored in the post season, more times than you would like to admit I’m sure.

My point was Malkin alone is more talent that Crosby has had than anyone Jagr had outside of Lemieux. You know, the guy you keep down playing....who at his best was just as dominant as Crosby and has been the second best playoff performer of this generation? Not a bad guy to have on the same team, but hey....he’s no Straka or Kovalev I suppose

Ya because he was on a team with Mario Lemieux. Any other player not Gretzky
, including Crosby, who would be on the same team as MARIO LEMIEUX will always be the second best. Again, details you choose to ignore.

Sid definitely was nothing special in the ‘16 finals, but your bias views along with your weird infatuation with him will get you to think otherwise. Don’t see how he didn’t get out played that series. But like I stated, Kessel out played Crosby in the second round, third round, and arguably had a better finals.....where Crosby’s 0 goals and 4 assists are apparently now impactful stats.

And leadership is a nice subjective phantom posters like you like to fall back on because it’s the perfect argument that no one can either prove or deny. It does everything you want it to, but the facts are the overall best players to ever play the game were offensive stars and put up offensive numbers which helped them win games. Kind of like why Crosby and Ovechkin are considered the best of their era. It’s because of their offense, sorry to break it to you.

Ok so now Crosby has been top 2 every cup run where as before he said “HE WAS THE NUMBER ONE GUY EVERY CUP RUN!” sort of like how you stated how his leadership was the main reason they won 3 cups, yet you weren’t prepared for the backlash of that horrid logic when they lose, only to pamper Crosby once again because he does no wrong in your narrow minded world.

Your all over the place. You have no basis for your argument and continue to change the dynamics of the discussion. You look and sound ridiculous and avoid any sort of logic or context because it obviously isn’t your strong suit and hurts your entire love for everything Crosby. Try again later, but for now....get it together and wrap up your irrational argument.

 

[Gurglesons]

Because Lemieux was in and out of the line up a majority of those years, it was hard to
Maintain the teams overall dynamic. The ‘93 team was one of the better of those teams but they got upset.

Jagr wasn’t a “top 3 forward” yet because he was young and had just came into the league. But of course you ignore that minor detail because context to you means you have no argument to begin with.

Kessels line was more consistent and more
Impactful than Crosby’s a majority of the playoffs. They were the main reason why they escaped the second round when Crosby was a no show. But again, ignore that detail.

How his career went after? Notice how old he was? Once again, please keep ignoring the context

You mean the year Straka played 4 more games than Jagr and only had 3 more points? Once again, CONTEXT I wonder how many times Crosby has been out scored in the post season, more times than you would like to admit I’m sure.

My point was Malkin alone is more talent that Crosby has had than anyone Jagr had outside of Lemieux. You know, the guy you keep down playing....who at his best was just as dominant as Crosby and has been the second best playoff performer of this generation? Not a bad guy to have on the same team, but hey....he’s no Straka or Kovalev I suppose

Ya because he was on a team with Mario Lemieux. Any other player not Gretzky
, including Crosby, who would be on the same team as MARIO LEMIEUX will always be the second best. Again, details you choose to ignore.

Sid definitely was nothing special in the ‘16 finals, but your bias views along with your weird infatuation with him will get you to think otherwise. Don’t see how he didn’t get out played that series. But like I stated, Kessel out played Crosby in the second round, third round, and arguably had a better finals.....where Crosby’s 0 goals and 4 assists are apparently now impactful stats.

And leadership is a nice subjective phantom posters like you like to fall back on because it’s the perfect argument that no one can either prove or deny. It does everything you want it to, but the facts are the overall best players to ever play the game were offensive stars and put up offensive numbers which helped them win games. Kind of like why Crosby and Ovechkin are considered the best of their era. It’s because of their offense, sorry to break it to you.

Ok so now Crosby has been top 2 every cup run where as before he said “HE WAS THE NUMBER ONE GUY EVERY CUP RUN!” sort of like how you stated how his leadership was the main reason they won 3 cups, yet you weren’t prepared for the backlash of that horrid logic when they lose, only to pamper Crosby once again because he does no wrong in your narrow minded world.

Your all over the place. You have no basis for your argument and continue to change the dynamics of the discussion. You look and sound ridiculous and avoid any sort of logic or context because it obviously isn’t your strong suit and hurts your entire love for everything Crosby. Try again later, but for now....get it together and wrap up your irrational argument.

Typing lots of words doesn’t mean you make any semblance of a point. Your bias against Sid is clear as day.

Anyone that watched the 2015-16 playoffs as a whole knows how huge Sid was. He carried the team against the Rags when Geno missed a game and was clearly still injured. He single handedly crushed the Lightning who were easily the most difficult match-up that year to a tune of 3 GW goals and then was instrumental to winning two of the four games including Game 6 in the finals. The coaching staff has specifically mentioned they were using Sid in a shut down role in the Caps series.

My point with Jags was he was surrounded by HHOFs throughout 93,94, and 95 and he did jackshit. He had prime Robitalle, Francis, and Murphy.

Sid was the number one C in TOI and line ups in every cup win he’s been a part of. Jagr wasn’t.

I think Midnight Judges started a thread on the main board that would be right up your alley.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Crosby > Jagr >= Malkin >> Forsberg.

I'll never understand why HFboards is so into Forsberg. I don't get it.

 

[DearDiary]

Crosby > Jagr >= Malkin >> Forsberg.

I'll never understand why HFboards is so into Forsberg. I don't get it.

It started from one YouTube video of Forsberg where he shoveds off players grabbing him and created scoring chances. HFboards came to the conclusion that no other player was capable of doing this at his level.

Eventually people started referencing this ability to posters old and new, while everyone eventually forgot that most of it was supposed to be sarcasm

In recent years, people now remember Forsberg as a tank who no one could take the puck off, who has the 4th highest ppg in NHL history while doing it being held by 2 guys.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Typing lots of words doesn’t mean you make any semblance of a point. Your bias against Sid is clear as day.

Anyone that watched the 2015-16 playoffs as a whole knows how huge Sid was. He carried the team against the Rags when Geno missed a game and was clearly still injured. He single handedly crushed the Lightning who were easily the most difficult match-up that year to a tune of 3 GW goals and then was instrumental to winning two of the four games including Game 6 in the finals. The coaching staff has specifically mentioned they were using Sid in a shut down role in the Caps series.

My point with Jags was he was surrounded by HHOFs throughout 93,94, and 95 and he did jack****. He had prime Robitalle, Francis, and Murphy.

Sid was the number one C in TOI and line ups in every cup win he’s been a part of. Jagr wasn’t.

I think Midnight Judges started a thread on the main board that would be right up your alley.

I like how you once again avoided the topic at hand only to attempt to flip it on me and MY bias against Crosby. Classic. The only bias person here is you and it’s really ruining your entire argument. I’m not the only one who sees it either. Just because I don’t worship Crosby and think he does no wrong like you doesn’t mean im against him, maybe have that logic checked out first before posting more foolishness.

Notice how I didn’t mention the first round when critiquing Sid? Of course you didn’t. Cool, he carried the Pens in the first round against an ok Rangers team. I’m sure that was a huge moral win for you, especially considering how he played the following round. Single handily? Why do you choose to live in this fantasy world of yours? Only one of those “GWG” had an actual impact on the game being won. That’s the flawed about game winners, but again your hockey knowledge only consists with anything to do with him. Everywhere else your obviously lost. Oh ya, he also finished 4th in scoring that series on his own team while being pointless in game 7. Shut down role? Who did he shut down? He had 2 assists and was a -3 and your trying to suggest he had some sort of positive impact on the series. Ovechkins line owned Crosby’s, look no further than the stats that you seem to ignore.

And once again, you change the argument from “Jagr couldn’t do it with MULTIPLE HOFers(which is a joke of a statement), but Crosby did it all by himself with his leadership!” How many cups has Crosby won without Malkin? Maybe look at that detail before putting down Jagr. You once again show that you have no idea what your talking about and didn’t watch those Pen teams at all. It’s all bandwagon fan talk and that’s ok, but don’t try to act like you have always been a fan. You glorify Kovalev as your favorite player while suggesting that Jagr was a bad person for the franchise....the ultimate irony. Your favorite player is a lazy selfish player but let’s focus on Jagrs faults as a person while ignoring him as a player.

But he wasn’t their best player. Keep focusing on meaningless stats to encourage your obsession. That’s fine, but the truth is there.....clear as day. Crosby has only been the best one cup run, and Malkin still lead the entire team in points and goals. But that’s not important, TOI is.....

Your constant need to go away from reality and into your own little world is a joke. Your opinions are a joke. I mean really? Crosby shut down the caps? Single handily carried the Pens past the Lightning? You actually think people will just read that like you wrote it and reject all common sense and the NUMEROUS data that proves you wrong?

Enjoy your nice little Crosby fantasy world. I’m sure it works for you.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It started from one YouTube video of Forsberg where he shoveds off players grabbing him and created scoring chances. HFboards came to the conclusion that no other player was capable of doing this at his level.

Eventually people started referencing this ability to posters old and new, while everyone eventually forgot that most of it was supposed to be sarcasm

In recent years, people now remember Forsberg as a tank who no one could take the puck off, who has the 4th highest ppg in NHL history while doing it being held by 2 guys.

It’s more people love to hate Forsberg because a very VERY small group probably suggested that he was better than Crosby and feelings got hurt.

Either way, Forsberg was one of the best players during his days. And at his best was definitely a top player in the regular and post season. Some people just don’t like to acknowledge that and choose to hop on the hate wagon because it’s the cool thing to do.

The people who talk the lowest about him, a majority of them at least didn’t watch him play. That’s the reality. We have a thread full of people who have watched Crosby and Malkin and not Jagr and Forsberg. You have recent glory versus achievements from 15-20 years ago.

 

[Varan]

I like how you once again avoided the topic at hand only to attempt to flip it on me and MY bias against Crosby. Classic. The only bias person here is you and it’s really ruining your entire argument. I’m not the only one who sees it either. Just because I don’t worship Crosby and think he does no wrong like you doesn’t mean im against him, maybe have that logic checked out first before posting more foolishness.

Notice how I didn’t mention the first round when critiquing Sid? Of course you didn’t. Cool, he carried the Pens in the first round against an ok Rangers team. I’m sure that was a huge moral win for you, especially considering how he played the following round. Single handily? Why do you choose to live in this fantasy world of yours? Only one of those “GWG” had an actual impact on the game being won. That’s the flawed about game winners, but again your hockey knowledge only consists with anything to do with him. Everywhere else your obviously lost. Oh ya, he also finished 4th in scoring that series on his own team while being pointless in game 7. Shut down role? Who did he shut down? He had 2 assists and was a -3 and your trying to suggest he had some sort of positive impact on the series. Ovechkins line owned Crosby’s, look no further than the stats that you seem to ignore.

And once again, you change the argument from “Jagr couldn’t do it with MULTIPLE HOFers(which is a joke of a statement), but Crosby did it all by himself with his leadership!” How many cups has Crosby won without Malkin? Maybe look at that detail before putting down Jagr. You once again show that you have no idea what your talking about and didn’t watch those Pen teams at all. Your a newly bandwagon fan and that’s ok, but don’t try to act like you have always been a fan. You glorify Kovalev as your favorite player while suggesting that Jagr was a bad person for the franchise....the ultimate irony. Your favorite player is a lazy selfish player but let’s focus on Jagrs faults as a person while ignoring him as a player.

But he wasn’t their best player. Keep focusing on meaningless stats to encourage your obsession. That’s fine, but the truth is there.....clear as day. Crosby has only been the best one cup run, and Malkin still lead the entire team in points and goals. But that’s not important, TOI is.....


Your constant need to go away from reality and into your own little world is a joke. Your opinions are a joke. I mean really? Crosby shut down the caps? Single handily carried the Pens past the Lightning? You actually think people will just read that like you wrote it and reject all common sense and the NUMEROUS data that proves you wrong?

Enjoy your nice little Crosby fantasy world. I’m sure it works for you.

Ovechkin has TORCHED Crosby's line (no matter who is on it) in the playoffs since they met in '09. But no one talked about that in years past because Crosby wasn't playing a "shut-down" role or "elite defence", he was just winning and putting up insane point totals.

Now, since the point totals have dropped and he's had multiple performances where he hasn't lived up to his standards production wise, the intangibles come in. He is apparently playing a "shut-down" role, while conveniently forgetting how he gets flamed versus elite offensive talent.

Winning covers up a lot of holes.

 

[Future GOAT]

Ovechkin has TORCHED Crosby's line (no matter who is on it) in the playoffs since they met in '09. But no one talked about that in years past because Crosby wasn't playing a "shut-down" role or "elite defence", he was just winning and putting up insane point totals.

Now, since the point totals have dropped and he's had multiple performances where he hasn't lived up to his standards production wise, the intangibles come in. He is apparently playing a "shut-down" role, while conveniently forgetting how he gets flamed versus elite offensive talent.

Winning covers up a lot of holes.

He's also now getting praised retroactively for "solid two way play" in years past when he didn't even know what "two way play" was.

 

[Varan]

He's also now getting praised retroactively for "solid two way play" in years past when he didn't even know what "two way play" was.

Exactly! One good year of defence gets mindlessly projected onto his whole career.

 

[bobholly39]

Ovechkin has TORCHED Crosby's line (no matter who is on it) in the playoffs since they met in '09. But no one talked about that in years past because Crosby wasn't playing a "shut-down" role or "elite defence", he was just winning and putting up insane point totals.

Now, since the point totals have dropped and he's had multiple performances where he hasn't lived up to his standards production wise, the intangibles come in. He is apparently playing a "shut-down" role, while conveniently forgetting how he gets flamed versus elite offensive talent.

Winning covers up a lot of holes.

I've always felt that head to heads should be altogether meaningless in player's evaluation. It's a team sport, it doesn't matter if you do good or bad against a specific player, even if it's your arch rival.

Don't get me wrong - it's huge for the ego and certainly huge for bragging rights between players. Gretzky always outdid himself vs Lemieux for example. All i'm saying is - it tells very little about the actual worth of a player in how he does with a specific matchup.

I do think the whole "Crosby defensive guru" talk that has come out recently is a bit overblown. But to be honest - i'm always an offense-guy first - so it annoys me for Crosby but even for guys like Bergeron. I simply prefer offense.

Outside of defense though - he *does* bring a lot of intangibles. Leadership can sometimes be overstated - but I think in 2016 in the playoffs it was absolutely paramount to the Pens success. Probably moreso than Ovechkin in 2018 for example.

 

[bathdog]

Outside of defense though - he *does* bring a lot of intangibles. Leadership can sometimes be overstated - but I think in 2016 in the playoffs it was absolutely paramount to the Pens success. Probably moreso than Ovechkin in 2018 for example.

Absolute nonsense to make an argument that Crosby's 2016 was stronger than Ovechkin's 2018 in any shape or form. Wasn't Toews better than Crosby for a good stretch due to unmeasurable intangibles?

 

[bobholly39]

Absolute nonsense to make an argument that Crosby's 2016 was stronger than Ovechkin's 2018 in any shape or form. Wasn't Toews better than Crosby for a good stretch due to unmeasurable intangibles?

No you misunderstood me. Ovechkin 2018 smythe > Crosby 2016 smythe. I'm not saying otherwise. I'm saying that you can't just discount intangible/leadership altogether, as I get a feeling that Crosby in 2016 was extremely important in that role, maybe moreso than Ovechkin in 2018 (or Crosby himself in 2017).

You always hear stories about Toews and leadership - so sure, I could see his leadership in the cup years playing a bigger role in their cups than most captains in cup years.

Bottom line - when comparing Crosby to the 3 players in this thread - his intangibles and leadership has *some* worth.

 

[wetcoast]

2010-2011 Crosby and 2008-2009 playoffs Malkin would be off-the-charts good and can anchor two lines down the middle.

This is the way I look at is well.

If all guys are at their absolute peak I would take Crosby/Malkin but man it's really close.

 

[authentic]

In terms of peak seasons, Jagr 98/99 is clearly the best and Malkin 11/12 is clearly 2nd. Crosby and Forsberg are close though.

I'm sure Crosby fans will bring up the typical bs of "peak level play" using a random cherry picked sample of 25 games, but that can be done for the other players to make them look better too.

Voted Crosby and Malkin because Forsberg is such a poor goal scorer. The other 3 are bigger offensive threats.

He's such a poor goal scorer that he scored more goals than all of them in the playoffs after the same number of games, which for all of them is a huge sample size spanning over a decade. Scoring was also lower in the playoffs during most of Forsberg's prime than the rest (yes it was lower than the regular season numbers by quite a bit)

 

[bathdog]

No you misunderstood me. Ovechkin 2018 smythe > Crosby 2016 smythe. I'm not saying otherwise. I'm saying that you can't just discount intangible/leadership altogether, as I get a feeling that Crosby in 2016 was extremely important in that role, maybe moreso than Ovechkin in 2018 (or Crosby himself in 2017).

You always hear stories about Toews and leadership - so sure, I could see his leadership in the cup years playing a bigger role in their cups than most captains in cup years.

Bottom line - when comparing Crosby to the 3 players in this thread - his intangibles and leadership has *some* worth.

Don't really agree. If they played with a bunch of rookies, sure. But both Pens, Caps and Hawks teams had a ton of experience, so no.

If I would choose a captain of these players I'd probably also choose Crosby too, but I'm not sure how much worth that has in terms of performance. No idea what other intangibles you're referring to.

 

[authentic]

Best offensive player: Jagr
Best defensive player: Forsberg

Crosby and Malkin fit somewhere in between, and if you valued position it could tip the scales perhaps in their favor. For me, there isn't enough of a drop off at all from Forsberg to either of Crosby or Malkin to make me consider them over Jagr and Forsberg.

This is one of those cases where I would flip a coin, but I would be so tempted to see Forsberg and Jagr on a line together. We have already witnessed over a decade of Crosby and Malkin on the same team.

 

[authentic]

He scored 252 points over 166 games from November '09 - October '13, a 1.52 PPG which is a 124 point pace over 82 games. Not 130. Get your facts straight. 130 looks super shiny but it's simply not true.

We add in missed time + the fact that history shows how his PPG drops over the course of a season, I bet there is no way he would have kept that pace.

But yeah.

By the way, I just wanted to counter your other point about only 2 forwards have reached above that level in order to prop up Crosby:

Alexander Ovechkin from January 16th, 2008 - February 13th, 2010

• 170 games played
• 256 points
• 1.51 PPG = 123 points/82 games
• 129 goals = 0.76 GPG = 62 goals/82 games

LITERALLY THE SAME PRODUCTION FOR CRYING OUT LOUD

And he did this without missed time. Stop this nonsense about Crosby. At peak level of play, these 2 are dead even. Idk why you Crosby fans lie all the damn time or leave out facts just to pump him up. Are you that insecure about your favourite player because he has a counterpart doing literally the same things he's doing? Is Crosby supposed to be the undisputed king of the NHL? Jesus...

Even Forsberg has a 236 point stretch over 167 games, and he was a better defensive player who brought a physical aspect that Crosby doesn't, and he did it with considerably less ice time (but better linemates). I don't see a huge difference between those two calibers of player who were otherwise basically identical in the playoffs at their best and overall.

 

[psycat]

One of those are not like the others.
Voting Jagr+whoever of the other 3 for peak.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Ovechkin has TORCHED Crosby's line (no matter who is on it) in the playoffs since they met in '09. But no one talked about that in years past because Crosby wasn't playing a "shut-down" role or "elite defence", he was just winning and putting up insane point totals.

Now, since the point totals have dropped and he's had multiple performances where he hasn't lived up to his standards production wise, the intangibles come in. He is apparently playing a "shut-down" role, while conveniently forgetting how he gets flamed versus elite offensive talent.

Winning covers up a lot of holes.

Winning always forgives for sure. That’s why his performances in the ‘09 finals and the second round of the ‘16 playoffs get shrugged off. It’s like, whatever, he won. It only gets ridiculous when some attempt to justify why he was still good. That’s when you really see how desperate some can be just to have validation.

No you misunderstood me. Ovechkin 2018 smythe > Crosby 2016 smythe. I'm not saying otherwise. I'm saying that you can't just discount intangible/leadership altogether, as I get a feeling that Crosby in 2016 was extremely important in that role, maybe moreso than Ovechkin in 2018 (or Crosby himself in 2017).

You always hear stories about Toews and leadership - so sure, I could see his leadership in the cup years playing a bigger role in their cups than most captains in cup years.

Bottom line - when comparing Crosby to the 3 players in this thread - his intangibles and leadership has *some* worth.

Using leadership is somewhat lazy though because it’s purely subjective and all speculation. Like no one can “prove” he wasn’t a good leader because he won, where as no one can actually prove he was a good leader because no one in here is in that locker room or on that ice. Leadership is important and it does bring a certain sense of connection and vibe to a team, allowing it to function properly. But talent wins first and foremost. Crosby’s talent as a player and his contribution to his team helped them win multiple championships and him two smythes. I just feel the whole leadership agenda was formed by hardcore fans to make up for his mediocre offense and unimpressive defense, at least IMO.

Crosby wears the C for a reason, but I just don’t see how his leadership has any affect on the outcome. But then again, what is defined as being a “good leader” is highly debatable. Is it showing up when it counts? Scoring big goals? Providing your team with the most offense/defense? Or are those all characteristics of a player with a lot of talent, especially when it comes to the bigger stage? Because guys like Malkin and Kane certainly fit in that category, but I don’t see anyone talking about how great of leaders they are.

Toews and Crosby share something kind of significant when it comes to their leadership abilities, and that’s that they both totally shit the bed during their first cup wins in the finals, and 2 other top players took over and lead the charge with their teams. Does that make them bad leaders? does that suddenly make Malkin and Kane great leaders? Or did they just happen to have 2 other big time gamers and talents to contribute. Which is something when Lemieux and Gretzky had when they were winning cups.

 

[Future GOAT]

Forsberg=Malkin=Crosby are in pretty much the same realm

Jagr being the best player since Mario is a step above those guys and that is why his pair takes this poll.

 

[Foppberg]

Forsberg=Malkin=Crosby are in pretty much the same realm

Jagr being the best player since Mario is a step above those guys and that is why his pair takes this poll.

I'd have Forsberg a touch ahead of Geno/Sid, but I am biased.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Forsberg=Malkin=Crosby are in pretty much the same realm

Jagr being the best player since Mario is a step above those guys and that is why his pair takes this poll.

Lol your team will win 0 championships with jagr driving the ship. While Crosby has won 2 cups while being mvp and one international tournament being mvp and the other scoring the OT winner