Peak Forsberg and Jagr vs. Peak Crosby and Malkin

[TheGuiminator]

Yes when I said “that much” I meant clearly better. Crosby has had a better career than Forsberg but in terms of talent, it’s closer than many want to consider. I never debated Crosby being better, but your being dramatic with how much better.

Sure, Forsberg has 3 AS selections, a Hart, Art Ross, and multiple top finishes offensively while only playing 70 or more games 5 times through out his career. Context matters.


Well this is a duo thing, not one compared to the other. I think having Crosby ahead of Forsberg isn’t crazy and totally justified. I just feel people picking Forsberg aren’t just doing it out or nostalgia, he was a very dominant player the brief times he got to put together a good amount of games.

No your to busy changing your standards while going against your own logic. If Crosby’s Leadership and play can be so impactful, that it’s the main factor they win, they it most certainly can be the main reason they lose....you say otherwise and toss blame elsewhere except his way.

Well again, your attempting to push your opinion as an overall fact. It’s YOUR opinion that he’s the 5th best, not an overall agreed to upon assumption. Stop trying to make your word seem more prestigious than others when your the one being incredibly bias.

Everything Forsberg did in those 5 healthy seasons, Crosby did it better and longer, that’s even more impressive.

 

[SotasicA]

This really shouldn't be that close because Forsberg's and Jagr's peaks weren't that impressive, compared to the competition here. Crosby is the best player since pre-cancer Mario. Still is.

And I'm an older hockey fan.

Peak Bossy and Lafleur have them all beat anyway. That should be the poll. I mean, f*** Forsberg. He's not in their league.

 

[Gurglesons]

Everything Forsberg did in those 5 healthy seasons, Crosby did it better and longer, that’s even more impressive.

Not when you are being a Crosby hater and criticizing people for “favoring” him because it’s their opinion man.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Everything Forsberg did in those 5 healthy seasons, Crosby did it better and longer, that’s even more impressive.

I dont disgree. But you still left out some major context with your other post, I was simply correcting it.

Forsberg’s ‘03 season isn’t exactly in a lower category than any of Crosby’s. Like I stated, Crosby was consistent and at a higher level, and he gets credit for that....but you make it sound like Forsbergs “little” accomplishments were all while playing the same amount of games and within the same time frame. It wasn’t.

No need to have to prove your love for Crosby and try to make him seem superior to any and every player. It just comes off as desperate.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Not when you are being a Crosby hater and criticizing people for “favoring” him because it’s their opinion man.

So now you have to classify someone a “hater” to make your opinion seem stronger while belittling mine. Classic and desperate move. I love it...just shows how far your willing to reach because your at a loss.

Favoring is one thing, your legit changing the entire criteria of your entire argument just so he can appear better. Face it, you have to because you can’t even keep up with your own words.

 

[GreatGonzo]

This really shouldn't be that close because Forsberg's and Jagr's peaks weren't that impressive, compared to the competition here. Crosby is the best player since pre-cancer Mario. Still is.

And I'm an older hockey fan.

Peak Bossy and Lafleur have them all beat anyway. That should be the poll. I mean, **** Forsberg. He's not in their league.

Jagrs peak was better than all 3 players. Not that impressive? 5 scoring titles, 2 Pearson’s, a Hart....while being a finalist 5 times....all in a 7 year period. Really?.....did you decide to watch hockey in ‘06?

You can’t call yourself an “older fan” yet say Jagrs peak wasn’t that impressive. The truth is already there, there’s really nothing you can suggest or say that changes that.

Also Jagr and Forsberg had much more top end competition, that once again isn’t debatable.

You summed up your entire hockey opinion with your “f*k Forsberg” comment. Clearly you don’t know what’s going on anymore.

 

[Gurglesons]

So now you have to classify someone a “hater” to make your opinion seem stronger while belittling mine. Classic and desperate move. I love it...just shows how far your willing to reach because your at a loss.

Favoring is one thing, your legit changing the entire criteria of your entire argument just so he can appear better. Face it, you have to because you can’t even keep up with your own words.

You think people are being “desperate” to defend Crosby. The smugness in your posts while trying to appear as some even keel influence is straight out the Midnight Judges playbook. Is Forsberg a top ten NHL skater of all time? No.

Is Crosby? It isn’t arguable at this point.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

They lacked obvious things to make them contenders and Jagr carried that team once Lemieux retired. Crosby and Malkin never did that by themselves

Do people actually think this?

Crosby and Malkin are the Pens. They’ve carried the team for over a decade now. It’s incredibly simple.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I think Jagr is easily the most dominant regular season player here.

Where things get dicey is his playoff production when not behind those great Penguins teams and the fact his off ice intangibles are partially the reason the Penguins sucked during the 98-00 seasons.

What’s wrong with his playoff production?
1991-2001: 140-65-82-147
-4th in assists
-1st in Goals
-2nd in points

1995-2001(peak): 77-44-51-95
-8th in assists
-4th in points
-2nd in Goals
-2nd in PPG

1998-00(No Lemieux): 26-17-20-37
-6th in points
-4th in Goals
-1st in PPG

Seems like you once again are just being dramatic for the sake of being dramatic. Clearly he was a top playoff performer. Like you said with Crosby, hard to win a cup with little help surrounding you, right? Or was it Jagrs Leadership?......

Also how is it his fault his team was bad? Do you just have nothing more to add so your just going to bring down Jagr as a player for anything and everything that you simply dislike about him?

Just because you don’t like him or his attitude doesn’t mean he was less of a player. Let’s stick to them as hockey players and less about your emotions and feelings shall we?

 

[JerseyMike34]

Here is another irrelevant thought: imagine Crosby and Malkin knifing through those slow d-men that Jagr and Forsberg played against.

They'd never get up to their current speed at all, there was a shit ton of uncalled obstruction. They wouldn't be able to knife through all those slow d-men. They'd have sticks on em every second.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You think people are being “desperate” to defend Crosby. The smugness in your posts while trying to appear as some even keel influence is straight out the Midnight Judges playbook. Is Forsberg a top ten NHL skater of all time? No.

Is Crosby? It isn’t arguable at this point.

Yes based on how many times you have switched up your argument and how many times your willing to be deliberately obtuse and see Crosby as a player who does no wrong.

What does that have to do anything? Are toy suggesting Crosby is? Do you have any idea how strong Forsberg was on the puck? Of course you don’t because your pretending like you have a clue what your talking about.

Do people actually think this?

Crosby and Malkin are the Pens. They’ve carried the team for over a decade now. It’s incredibly simple.

the only reason why you wouldn’t is because you either never saw how mediocre those Pens teams were when Lemieux left(and when he came back), or your love for Crosby/Malkin just blinds your judgment.

Exactly my point. Who did Jagr have during his peak that was anywhere close to Malkin?

They haven’t carried the Pens over the last 10 years. God, some of you love being dramatic. Kessel, Murray, and Letang have just as much influence over their last 2 cup wins as Malkin and Crosby have. Sure they Carried the Pens in’09, but after that both struggled with injuries, especially Crosby who only played 100 games through 3 season, and they STILL made the playoffs every year with them playing little or not at all.

Let’s not pretend Crosby or Malkin carried anyone anywhere after ‘09. The closest was Malkin in ‘12, where they still didn’t make it far in the playoffs.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes based on how many times you have switched up your argument and how many times your willing to be deliberately obtuse and see Crosby as a player who does no wrong.

What does that have to do anything? Are toy suggesting Crosby is? Do you have any idea how strong Forsberg was on the puck? Of course you don’t because your pretending like you have a clue what your talking about.

the only reason why you wouldn’t is because you either never saw how mediocre those Pens teams were when Lemieux left(and when he came back), or your love for Crosby/Malkin just blinds your judgment.

Exactly my point. Who did Jagr have during his peak that was anywhere close to Malkin?

They haven’t carried the Pens over the last 10 years. God, some of you love being dramatic. Kessel, Murray, and Letang have just as much influence over their last 2 cup wins as Malkin and Crosby have. Sure they Carried the Pens in’09, but after that both struggled with injuries, especially Crosby who only played 100 games through 3 season, and they STILL made the playoffs every year with them playing little or not at all.

Let’s not pretend Crosby or Malkin carried anyone anywhere after ‘09. The closest was Malkin in ‘12, where they still didn’t make it far in the playoffs.

I love how you are questioning Penguins fans viewing of Jagr. Lends a lot of credibility to your argument to insinuate none of us watched Jagr.

You know. The player many of us mid 30 year old users on HFPens was a big part of us getting into hockey.

 

[Gurglesons]

What’s wrong with his playoff production?
1991-2001: 140-65-82-147
-4th in assists
-1st in Goals
-2nd in points

1995-2001(peak): 77-44-51-95
-8th in assists
-4th in points
-2nd in Goals
-2nd in PPG

1998-00(No Lemieux): 26-17-20-37
-6th in points
-4th in Goals
-1st in PPG

Seems like you once again are just being dramatic for the sake of being dramatic. Clearly he was a top playoff performer. Like you said with Crosby, hard to win a cup with little help surrounding you, right? Or was it Jagrs Leadership?......

Also how is it his fault his team was bad? Do you just have nothing more to add so your just going to bring down Jagr as a player for anything and everything that you simply dislike about him?

Just because you don’t like him or his attitude doesn’t mean he was less of a player. Let’s stick to them as hockey players and less about your emotions and feelings shall we?

Do you remember why those Penguins teams sucked?

Do you remember Jagr demanding a system and a coach that suited him? Fellow Czech players that he demanded to play with? His no show in the 2001 playoff series with the Devils?

It’s hilarious to me that people completely forget what a headcase Jagr was after Francis left. He lasted less than two years in Pitt without Lemieux or Francis before demanding a “new start” and Lemieux’s reaction was literally to unretire.

You can blame Crosby for whatever you want. But he has been THE GUY in all four Pens runs. The captain, the 1st line C, the leader.

Jagr was a selfish star who did none of that and for some reason people forget that because he was goofy when he came back to the NHL. Immense talent, but outside of himself he did jack shit without Lemieux and was a huge reason for the downfall of the Pens after 96 along with Baldwin being a total jackass and the departure of Mario.

 

[Gurglesons]

Also, I love the narrative that Jagr played with nothing after Lemieux left.

Only Ron Francis and then a second line that nearly combined for 300 pts together in 00-01. No depth there..

Hell, I’d argue Kip Miller was better than Conor Sheary.

 

[Varan]

@GreatGonzo is a one man army

 

[daver]

They'd never get up to their current speed at all, there was a **** ton of uncalled obstruction. They wouldn't be able to knife through all those slow d-men. They'd have sticks on em every second.

So we'll just assume that all the best players from the DPE would automatically be better than all the best players from any other era??? That makes no sense at all.

 

[daver]

This really shouldn't be that close because Forsberg's and Jagr's peaks weren't that impressive, compared to the competition here. Crosby is the best player since pre-cancer Mario. Still is.

And I'm an older hockey fan.

Peak Bossy and Lafleur have them all beat anyway. That should be the poll. I mean, **** Forsberg. He's not in their league.

I would like to hear how you evaluate "peaks" and competition.

 

[Goodman68]

This really shouldn't be that close because Forsberg's and Jagr's peaks weren't that impressive, compared to the competition here. Crosby is the best player since pre-cancer Mario. Still is.

And I'm an older hockey fan.

Peak Bossy and Lafleur have them all beat anyway. That should be the poll. I mean, **** Forsberg. He's not in their league.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Do you remember why those Penguins teams sucked?

Do you remember Jagr demanding a system and a coach that suited him? Fellow Czech players that he demanded to play with? His no show in the 2001 playoff series with the Devils?

It’s hilarious to me that people completely forget what a headcase Jagr was after Francis left. He lasted less than two years in Pitt without Lemieux or Francis before demanding a “new start” and Lemieux’s reaction was literally to unretire.

You can blame Crosby for whatever you want. But he has been THE GUY in all four Pens runs. The captain, the 1st line C, the leader.

Jagr was a selfish star who did none of that and for some reason people forget that because he was goofy when he came back to the NHL. Immense talent, but outside of himself he did jack **** without Lemieux and was a huge reason for the downfall of the Pens after 96 along with Baldwin being a total jackass and the departure of Mario.

I’m not condoning his actions or his behavior, I’m stating the obvious....which is it wasn’t in any Jagrs fault that those teams couldn’t deliver.

We get it, you don’t like Jagr. And your using that dislike to try to push this idea that he’s inferior to Crosby while blaming him for his teams faults. I can’t make you see how ridiculous that is, and by this point it’s useless because your bias is cemented within you. Maybe get over it? Maybe don’t be so emotionally involved? Just ideas....

Also, I love the narrative that Jagr played with nothing after Lemieux left.

Only Ron Francis and then a second line that nearly combined for 300 pts together in 00-01. No depth there..

Hell, I’d argue Kip Miller was better than Conor Sheary.

Francis was 34.....and didn’t stay much longer after Lemieux left. Once again, you try to twist the narrative as if to entertain the idea that you have a clue with what we are talking about.

I love how you are questioning Penguins fans viewing of Jagr. Lends a lot of credibility to your argument to insinuate none of us watched Jagr.

You know. The player many of us mid 30 year old users on HFPens was a big part of us getting into hockey.

well, your not a Pen fan, and if you are....you never watched Jagr play or most likely anything before ‘06. So yes I have every right to question your nonesense.

Because your so credible? “I don’t like Jagr! Everything is his fault and that’s why he isn’t even close to Crosby!! Who is the best leader and is never at fault no matter how badly he plays or “leads!”

You will move the goalposts soon, like you always do.

 

[Gurglesons]

I’m not condoning his actions or his behavior, I’m stating the obvious....which is it wasn’t in any Jagrs fault that those teams couldn’t deliver.

We get it, you don’t like Jagr. And your using that dislike to try to push this idea that he’s inferior to Crosby while blaming him for his teams faults. I can’t make you see how ridiculous that is, and by this point it’s useless because your bias is cemented within you. Maybe get over it? Maybe don’t be so emotionally involved? Just ideas....


Francis was 34.....and didn’t stay much longer after Lemieux left. Once again, you try to twist the narrative as if to entertain the idea that you have a clue with what we are talking about.

well, your not a Pen fan, and if you are....you never watched Jagr play or most likely anything before ‘06. So yes I have every right to question your nonesense.

Because your so credible? “I don’t like Jagr! Everything is his fault and that’s why he isn’t even close to Crosby!! Who is the best leader and is never at fault no matter how badly he plays or “leads!”

You will move the goalposts soon, like you always do.

I don't think you'll find any Penguins fan saying Jagr was a better player than Crosby at this point. Before the back to backs most certainly an argument. But, with those Conn Smythes, another Rocket, and another 100 point season he's clearly solidified himself as the better player and arguably the best PENGUIN in history.

As any Pens fan born in the '80s, Jags was obviously a favorite. Personally, I was more into Straka and Kovalev during those times, but it'd be stupid to say I didn't like Jagr when he was a Penguin.

Also, Francis was here in 97-98 (then went to Carolina and had multiple 70-80 pt seasons) and then the KLS line was here until Lemieux returned. So, Jagr had a comparable to Malkin on the 2nd line pretty much every year without Lemieux.

 

[Syrinx]

I don't think you'll find any Penguins fan saying Jagr was a better player than Crosby at this point. Before the back to backs most certainly an argument. But, with those Conn Smythes, another Rocket, and another 100 point season he's clearly solidified himself as the better player and arguably the best PENGUIN in history.

...but somehow people who didn't watch every game in all of their careers know better.

I like Jagr better than Crosby because I think he and his play are much more entertaining but Crosby is a better all-around player.

 

[Beauner]

well, your not a Pen fan, and if you are....you never watched Jagr play or most likely anything before ‘06. So yes I have every right to question your nonesense.

Bringing out the bandwagon shots. That's when you know you're losing an argument against Pens fans...

 

[Gurglesons]

...but somehow people who didn't watch every game in all of their careers know better.

I like Jagr better than Crosby because I think he and his play are much more entertaining but Crosby is a better all-around player.

Without 15-16 and 16-17 it’s easily Jags, but to go back to back with Smythes in both easily moved it to Sid. On top of that you got the second Richard in there too.

 

[bobholly39]

What’s wrong with his playoff production?
1991-2001: 140-65-82-147
-4th in assists
-1st in Goals
-2nd in points

1995-2001(peak): 77-44-51-95
-8th in assists
-4th in points
-2nd in Goals
-2nd in PPG

1998-00(No Lemieux): 26-17-20-37
-6th in points
-4th in Goals
-1st in PPG

Seems like you once again are just being dramatic for the sake of being dramatic. Clearly he was a top playoff performer. Like you said with Crosby, hard to win a cup with little help surrounding you, right? Or was it Jagrs Leadership?......

Also how is it his fault his team was bad? Do you just have nothing more to add so your just going to bring down Jagr as a player for anything and everything that you simply dislike about him?

Just because you don’t like him or his attitude doesn’t mean he was less of a player. Let’s stick to them as hockey players and less about your emotions and feelings shall we?

I think Jagr has in general had very strong production in the playoffs. But for a player of his caliber that's simply not enough - you also want at least a couple of performances where he puts the team on his back and has a heroic/smythe worthy run. He had none of those in his elongated prime/peak.

Crosby, Malkin and Forsberg have multiple of those, in comparison.

I think it's fair to give an significant advantage to the other 3 for playoffs.

I don't count 91 and 92 as part of Jagr's prime or peak. Great performance and they add to his legacy - but those penguins wins were mostly on the back of Lemieux, so it's a bit different.

I do hate that Jagr gets too much flack for supposedly bad playoffs usually - they're not bad, they're really good overall. But compared to better playoff players - they are not as good, which is the case here.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I don't think you'll find any Penguins fan saying Jagr was a better player than Crosby at this point. Before the back to backs most certainly an argument. But, with those Conn Smythes, another Rocket, and another 100 point season he's clearly solidified himself as the better player and arguably the best PENGUIN in history.

As any Pens fan born in the '80s, Jags was obviously a favorite. Personally, I was more into Straka and Kovalev during those times, but it'd be stupid to say I didn't like Jagr when he was a Penguin.

Also, Francis was here in 97-98 (then went to Carolina and had multiple 70-80 pt seasons) and then the KLS line was here until Lemieux returned. So, Jagr had a comparable to Malkin on the 2nd line pretty much every year without Lemieux.

So Jagr had something comparable to a multiple ross winner on the 2nd line? If you mean Francis then come on lol. Francis never came close to sniffing a ross or hart, Malkin is a way better player than him.