Peak Forsberg and Jagr vs. Peak Crosby and Malkin

[bathdog]

Funny - when I first saw your reply to me I thought you were telling me that Lemieux is better than Crosby and i was wondering what in the world I might have said to ever imply otherwise....

If you don't like the exact wording of "put the team on his back/heroric run smythes" you can change the wording. But:

Crosby in 2008, 2009, 2016, 2017.
Malkin in 2009, 2017
Forsberg has a few really strong 3 round performances, which is better than Jagr has, though no "cup runs" like Crosby and Malkin where he stood out as much, since neither 96 nor 2001 was he likely even top 3 importance.

But - the point is - Jagr is very weak in such runs, and those types of runs are of critical value to a player's overall playoff worth. Jagr is more of a playoff compiler. This has value - and it's not all his fault, different teams/opportunities maybe plays into it - but it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day in the playoffs you're judged off accomplishments, and Jagr has no real such great playoff run in his prime that compares to those of the other guys. So net advantage to Crosby/Malkin duo there.

I think there are several ways of approaching the problem which at the end of the day makes it an interesting discussion without a definite answer. I agree with the point that has been brought forward regarding Jagr and the playoffs (far from a poor playoff performer, but struggle a little bit in this comparison), but then again, neither of the other 3 players stack up to Jagr's RS peak as far as accomplishments are concerned and it's not really close at all. Neither of the ways of approaching the problem are necessarily equivalent to being the better player.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Funny - when I first saw your reply to me I thought you were telling me that Lemieux is better than Crosby and i was wondering what in the world I might have said to ever imply otherwise....

If you don't like the exact wording of "put the team on his back/heroric run smythes" you can change the wording. But:

Crosby in 2008, 2009, 2016, 2017.
Malkin in 2009, 2017
Forsberg has a few really strong 3 round performances, which is better than Jagr has, though no "cup runs" like Crosby and Malkin where he stood out as much, since neither 96 nor 2001 was he likely even top 3 importance.

But - the point is - Jagr is very weak in such runs, and those types of runs are of critical value to a player's overall playoff worth. Jagr is more of a playoff compiler. This has value - and it's not all his fault, different teams/opportunities maybe plays into it - but it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day in the playoffs you're judged off accomplishments, and Jagr has no real such great playoff run in his prime that compares to those of the other guys. So net advantage to Crosby/Malkin duo there.

If I don’t like the wording? More like I don’t like the tire pumping and overdramatized story telling when it comes to their playoff play. You can’t word what you said differently and still not sound ridiculous. None of those players single handily carried any team on their backs in an heroic fashion. The fact that you named Crosby in 2016 while using that wording speaks for itself.

I’m not saying they don’t have stronger playoff performances than Jagr, but there’s a lot of of grey between “heroic/put the team in his back!” And “having a great-amazing playoff performance.”

What runs are you speaking of though? I mean, you keep referencing that while treating Crosby’s ‘16 run like it was some one man heroic show. Jagr was one of the best playoff performers for most of his prime/peak. Your holding it against Jagr that he never had a one man heroic show while trying to convince us that the other players clearly have, oh that’s right....your wording was off.

That’s because your only focusing on his last years in the league, showing obviously that you didn’t watch him before ‘06. Jagr from ‘91-‘04 is 3rd in points(154 in 146), 3rd in Goals(67), 5th in assists(87), and 4th in PPG(3rd with at least 100 games played). All with 2 cups.

Maybe re-check your wording on the term “compiler” because you clearly have no idea what that means.

Crosby has an argument as having more success than Lemieux as a Penguin. He’s been to twice as many finals and as many conference finals as Lemieux.

I think Lemieux is the better Penguin, but there is no reason to belittle that Crosby has been just as important to the franchise.

But he doesn’t. Lemieux achieved more in less time. There is no argument, other than the ones you make up for the sake of having an argument.

What? So Crosby is on, or better than Lemieux because he has been to more finals and conference finals than Lemieux? So Lemieux having more MVPs, scoring titles, better stats, and being the better player doesn’t matter.....but that’s Crosby saw the finals 2 more times, and not even as their best player.

It’s not belittling to scoff at the idea that there is an argument for Crosby being better than Lemieux as a Pen, or player....but you can’t believe one without the other. That’s just your terrible logic.

 

[Gurglesons]

If I don’t like the wording? More like I don’t like the tire pumping and overdramatized story telling when it comes to their playoff play. You can’t word what you said differently and still not sound ridiculous. None of those players single handily carried any team on their backs in an heroic fashion. The fact that you named Crosby in 2016 while using that wording speaks for itself.

I’m not saying they don’t have stronger playoff performances than Jagr, but there’s a lot of of grey between “heroic/put the team in his back!” And “having a great-amazing playoff performance.”

What runs are you speaking of though? I mean, you keep referencing that while treating Crosby’s ‘16 run like it was some one man heroic show. Jagr was one of the best playoff performers for most of his prime/peak. Your holding it against Jagr that he never had a one man heroic show while trying to convince us that the other players clearly have, oh that’s right....your wording was off.

That’s because your only focusing on his last years in the league, showing obviously that you didn’t watch him before ‘06. Jagr from ‘91-‘04 is 3rd in points(154 in 146), 3rd in Goals(67), 5th in assists(87), and 4th in PPG(3rd with at least 100 games played). All with 2 cups.

Maybe re-check your wording on the term “compiler” because you clearly have no idea what that means.






But he doesn’t. Lemieux achieved more in less time. There is no argument, other than the ones you make up for the sake of having an argument.

What? So Crosby is on, or better than Lemieux because he has been to more finals and conference finals than Lemieux? So Lemieux having more MVPs, scoring titles, better stats, and being the better player doesn’t matter.....but that’s Crosby saw the finals 2 more times, and not even as their best player.

It’s not belittling to scoff at the idea that there is an argument for Crosby being better than Lemieux as a Pen, or player....but you can’t believe one without the other. That’s just your terrible logic.

Crosby brought more success to Pittsburgh with a worse roster and was the # 1 forward in every single cup run in terms of TOI and deployment. Not sure what Finals Sid was outplayed in outside the 09 cup run.

Lemieux obviously laps Sid as an individual performer. (And his off ice impact in terms of accepting ownership of the franchise) but Crosby has done more for the franchise from a success point of view.

Hence why Sid has an argument as being the more successful Penguin.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Why is 2006 Jags comeback year?

He’s 2nd all time in scoring because he spent 29-45 being a merc and padding his totals.

He wasn’t in the league for 4 of those years. All while leading a Panthers and Devils team in scoring in his 40s.....

He averaged 58 points per 82 games from 2012-2017 from the ages of 39-44. Is it top notch production? No, but far from “padding.”

You just don’t like Jagr and will go to great lengths to argue against what he has accomplished.

 

[Gurglesons]

He wasn’t in the league for 4 of those years. All while leading a Panthers and Devils team in scoring in his 40s.....

He averaged 58 points per 82 games from 2012-2017 from the ages of 39-44. Is it top notch production? No, but far from “padding.”

You just don’t like Jagr and will go to great lengths to argue against what he has accomplished.

He referred to 2006 as a comeback year.

Jagr had played seasons in every year prior to the lockout.

Jagr’s point totals are 2nd overall because of the length of his career.

You realize at 32 Sid has outproduced Jagr’s totals at that time and PPG? (Granted Jags had the issue of two lockouts (one in his prime).)

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby brought more success to Pittsburgh with a worse roster and was the # 1 forward in every single cup run in terms of TOI and deployment. Not sure what Finals Sid was outplayed in outside the 09 cup run.

Lemieux obviously laps Sid as an individual performer. (And his off ice impact in terms of accepting ownership of the franchise) but Crosby has done more for the franchise from a success point of view.

Hence why Sid has an argument as being the more successful Penguin.

Again, highly subjective and YOUR opinion.

Lemieux had just as much, if not more of an impact. Like I stated, and some things you clearly ignored. He saved the Franchise while being their best player and best in the league nearly his entire career. You keep making up entitlements to give to Crosby while ignoring the obvious. I mean “ top player in every cup run in TOI and deployment!” All while Lemieux was wrecking the place in the regular and post season in a dominating fashion that Crosby never reached and will never.

So TOI>individual performer. Glad to see you at least attempting to be a fan who knows what they are talking about.

Again, how has Crosby brought more success when Lemieux literally saved the franchise twice. You can keep stating that without backing up, I just hope you understand that the more you say it doesn’t suddenly mean it will magically be more right.

 

[Gurglesons]

Again, highly subjective and YOUR opinion.

Lemieux had just as much, if not more of an impact. Like I stated, and some things you clearly ignored. He saved the Franchise while being their best player and best in the league nearly his entire career. You keep making up entitlements to give to Crosby while ignoring the obvious. I mean “ top player in every cup run in TOI and deployment!” All while Lemieux was wrecking the place in the regular and post season in a dominating fashion that Crosby never reached and will never.

So TOI>individual performer. Glad to see you at least attempting to be a fan who knows what they are talking about.

Again, how has Crosby brought more success when Lemieux literally saved the franchise twice. You can keep stating that without backing up, I just hope you understand that the more you say it doesn’t suddenly mean it will magically be more right.

You’re funny and obviously not even reading what I am saying. I guess if you post lengthy paragraphs people that dislike Crosby can latch on as if you made a point.

I can make a poll on the Pens board if you’d like about Sid versus Lemieux’s legacy as a Penguin.

 

[GreatGonzo]

He referred to 2006 as a comeback year.

Jagr had played seasons in every year prior to the lockout.

Jagr’s point totals are 2nd overall because of the length of his career.

I mean why can’t it be? Especially compared to his two previous years.

But not in the NHL, and he was still producing. Why ignore that?

Why does that matter? He was still up there in production in nearly every stat all time. He still earned that spot whether you like it or not. Weird how you complain about “belittling” Crosby yet have no problem doing it to Jagr, I wonder why......

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean why can’t it be? Especially compared to his two previous years.

But not in the NHL, and he was still producing. Why ignore that?

Why does that matter? He was still up there in production in nearly every stat all time. He still earned that spot whether you like it or not. Weird how you complain about “belittling” Crosby yet have no problem doing it to Jagr, I wonder why......

Viewing Jags career is much easier than Sid’s as he has retired. In their respective age ranges, Sid certainly has an argument of being the much more successful player.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You’re funny and obviously not even reading what I am saying. I guess if you post lengthy paragraphs people that dislike Crosby can latch on as if you made a point.

I can make a poll on the Pens board if you’d like about Sid versus Lemieux’s legacy as a Penguin.

No your spot picking meaningless things that Crosby has him beat in and acting like it holds some sort of value.

Why the Pens board? You afraid of the main boards? I’m sure it won’t matter regardless. Thinking Crosby is the better Penguin is thinking he’s the better player, which is nonesense. Especially considering how another player(Malkin) has been just as, if not more impactful in the playoffs and for the franchise compared to Crosby.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Viewing Jags career is much easier than Sid’s as he has retired. In their respective age ranges, Sid certainly has an argument of being the much more successful player.

It’s also bias considering many didn’t watch Jagr when he was one the best player and most dominant players in the league. Also many have a terrible attitude towards Jagr, like yourself....making their opinions even more bias.

Of course, Crosby does....but not Crosby over Lemieux. Jagr is understandable.

 

[Gurglesons]

No your spot picking meaningless things that Crosby has him beat in and acting like it holds some sort of value.

Why the Pens board? You afraid of the main boards? I’m sure it won’t matter regardless. Thinking Crosby is the better Penguin is thinking he’s the better player, which is nonesense. Especially considering how another player(Malkin) has been just as, if not more impactful in the playoffs and for the franchise compared to Crosby.

Malkin has one playoffs where he has been as impactful.

You’re misunderstanding the argument.

Also, there is an obvious bias towards Sid as he is a current player. Lemieux has retired and his legacy has had nearly 20 years to grow even further than it already had. I remember the criticisms of him throughout the ‘90s especially after his first retirement.

Could you imagine if Crosby had retired at 30 due to concussion issues?

 

[Gurglesons]

It’s also bias considering many didn’t watch Jagr when he was one the best player and most dominant players in the league. Also many have a terrible attitude towards Jagr, like yourself....making their opinions even more bias.

Of course, Crosby does....but not Crosby over Lemieux. Jagr is understandable.

I watched the majority of Jagr’s career with the Pens.

Put Sid on the 90-96 (Jagr’s intro to the league) Pens and his peak would have been Lemieuxesque.

Look at what he has done with Hossa and Guentzel who are nowhere near the wing talent Mario had in those years.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I watched the majority of Jagr’s career with the Pens.

Put Sid on the 90-96 (Jagr’s intro to the league) Pens and his peak would have been Lemieuxesque.

Look at what he has done with Hossa and Guentzel who are nowhere near the wing talent Mario had in those years.

Hard to believe honestly. I mean I can’t prove you wrong or call you a liar, but what you know and don’t know about those Pen teams speaks for itself.

Sure, same can be said about Malkin. Why choose that timeframe when the Pens were practically a powerhouse? Put Sid or Malkin on those Pen teams from ‘97-‘01, and they still don’t have any playoff success. That’s been my point, a point you once again ignore.

Are you trying to suggest that Crosby has had LESS talent than Lemieux did and did better? Really?! news flash folks, playing with good players makes your play better and Lemieux was only good those years because of his wingers, while Crosby has scrubs, like HOF two way winger and 3 time Stanley cup champ Hossa. So your just going to ignore Lemieux from ‘84-‘89? Or from ‘01-‘04?

And I’m the funny guy....

 

[Gurglesons]

Hard to believe honestly. I mean I can’t prove you wrong or call you a liar, but what you know and don’t know about those Pen teams speaks for itself.

Sure, same can be said about Malkin. Why choose that timeframe when the Pens were practically a powerhouse? Put Sid or Malkin on those Pen teams from ‘97-‘01, and they still don’t have any playoff success. That’s been my point, a point you once again ignore.

Are you trying to suggest that Crosby has had LESS talent than Lemieux did and did better? Really?! news flash folks, playing with good players makes your play better and Lemieux was only good those years because of his wingers, while Crosby has scrubs, like HOF two way winger and 3 time Stanley cup champ Hossa. So your just going to ignore Lemieux from ‘84-‘89? Or from ‘01-‘04?

And I’m the funny guy....

Crosby played less than 35 games with Marian Hossa.

Sid or Malkin from 97-91 would have still had Kovalev who is a better winger than either has ever played with.

I’m not sure what Penguins team in the Sid / Malkin was a “powerhouse” they’ve never won the President’s Trophy and even in their best years were icing a player like Conor Sheary, Pascal Dupuis or 35+ year old Guerin on their top line with Sid.

 

[qqaz]

Picked Jagr and Forsberg.

But I could be convinced otherwise. (shrug)

 

[GreatGonzo]

Malkin has one playoffs where he has been as impactful.

You’re misunderstanding the argument.

Also, there is an obvious bias towards Sid as he is a current player. Lemieux has retired and his legacy has had nearly 20 years to grow even further than it already had. I remember the criticisms of him throughout the ‘90s especially after his first retirement.

Could you imagine if Crosby had retired at 30 due to concussion issues?

No two, unless your really trying to suggest that his 28 points and 10 goals in 2017 wasn’t impactful. Which is a laugh.

Every person would put Lemieux above Crosby in any and every all time list. Your saying despite that, if we just focus on the Pena organization, Sid has more of a chance. That’s ridiculous.

If he would have retired by 30? His legacy would be intact and he would be fine. But that’s not the same as Lemieux, who achieved more, playing less, and in a smaller time frame. He didn’t even play a thousand games and still is argument 2nd/3rd best player of all time, depending. Sid doesn’t have that kind of impact.

 

[Gurglesons]

No two, unless your really trying to suggest that his 28 points and 10 goals in 2017 wasn’t impactful. Which is a laugh.

Every person would put Lemieux above Crosby in any and every all time list. Your saying despite that, if we just focus on the Pena organization, Sid has more of a chance. That’s ridiculous.

If he would have retired by 30? His legacy would be intact and he would be fine. But that’s not the same as Lemieux, who achieved more, playing less, and in a smaller time frame. He didn’t even play a thousand games and still is argument 2nd/3rd best player of all time, depending. Sid doesn’t have that kind of impact.

Once again. You aren’t grasping the argument I’m making. Crosby had more success with the Penguins franchise. Lemieux was a more successful individual.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby played less than 35 games with Marian Hossa.

Sid or Malkin from 97-91 would have still had Kovalev who is a better winger than either has ever played with.

You named drop Hossa as if he was a lesser talent. Which was your suggestion. Just more teaching on your part.

So in your hockey expertise, Kovalev was such an impactful player, and all he needed was Crosby or Malkin to be better than Jagr was during those years....gotcha. Really, REALLY idiotic, but I gotcha.

 

[Gurglesons]

You named drop Hossa as if he was a lesser talent. Which was your suggestion. Just more teaching on your part.

So in your hockey expertise, Kovalev was such an impactful player, and all he needed was Crosby or Malkin to be better than Jagr was during those years....gotcha. Really, REALLY idiotic, but I gotcha.

Big difference between a winger that is forcing the team to play his style of hockey, recruiting Czech players and Czech coaches while demanding a trade out (causing Lemieux to unretire to help the relationship) and what Sid brings as a C and a captain.

It’s such a subjective argument it is stupid, but if you think the Sid/Malkin Penguins “powerhouses” compare to the 93 or 96 teams. You’re the one that needs a history lesson.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Once again. You aren’t grasping the argument I’m making. Crosby had more success with the Penguins franchise. Lemieux was a more successful individual.

Just because he has 1 more cup and 2 more appearances doesn’t mean he was more successful to the franchise. Crosby wouldn’t be a Pen if not for Lemieux.

Individual counts when it comes to a franchise player. Stop trying to separate the two just because it hurts your argument. You can’t have one without the other.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Big difference between a winger that is forcing the team to play his style of hockey, recruiting Czech players and Czech coaches while demanding a trade out (causing Lemieux to unretire to help the relationship) and what Sid brings as a C and a captain.

Again, all character flaws that you focus on rather than him as a player. More bias from you and more obvious reasoning as to why you don’t like him.

There’s that “leadership” again. It sucks Crosby wasn’t a better leader between his cups, this wouldn’t be debatable.

 

[Gurglesons]

Just because he has 1 more cup and 2 more appearances doesn’t mean he was more successful to the franchise. Crosby wouldn’t be a Pen if not for Lemieux.

Individual counts when it comes to a franchise player. Stop trying to separate the two just because it hurts your argument. You can’t have one without the other.

I have to disagree here. Crosby was more successful as the focal point of the franchise in his career versus Lemieux or Jagr.

The X factors that you have pointed out in regards to Lemieux is what tips the scales in my opinion.

 

[Gurglesons]

Again, all character flaws that you focus on rather than him as a player. More bias from you and more obvious reasoning as to why you don’t like him.

There’s that “leadership” again. It sucks Crosby wasn’t a better leader between his cups, this wouldn’t be debatable.

Sucks that the cap along with Shero and Bylsma’s decisions were determential to the success of the teams from 2012-2015.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I have to disagree here. Crosby was more successful as the focal point of the franchise in his career versus Lemieux or Jagr.

The X factors that you have pointed out in regards to Lemieux is what tips the scales in my opinion.

I wouldn’t say that either. The Pens during Lemieuxs era were dysfunctional and top heavy for a majority of his years there. Lemieux didn’t play for the ‘95 season and only played 22 games in ‘94. Those are 2 prime years where he wasn’t able to contribute much. Very similar to Crosby from ‘2011-13, all those injuries definitely hurt the Pens playoff chances, would you say.

You can argue Crosby being more successful but that’s more or less because he had a much better ran team than Lemieux did. Lemieux never ha

Sucks that the cap along with Shero and Bylsma’s decisions were determential to the success of the teams from 2012-2015.

Kind of similar to the Pens organization and coaching when Jagr was at his best with no Lemieux....

Using your logic, it was actually Crosby’s lack of leadership. You know, the Pens “X-Factor” to their playoff success and the main reason why he’s a better Pen than Jagr. Unless you think he magically gained better leadership abilities in 2016.

Weird how when the Pens weren’t winning, it’s management, but when the Pens started winning, it was Crosby’s Leadership that tipped the scales in their favor.