News Article: [Paywall] The NHL is shifting to more of a skill-first league, have the Maple Leafs over-corrected?

[8816 others]

Maybe someone like Virtanen would be worthwhile. He has the physical game and it's still possible for him to regain some of his offensive abilities.

 

[Stephen]

After watching the Boston series, it was clear to me that the Bruins were pushing the physical game against the Leafs and it worked well. Kadri being kicked out of the bulk of the series didn't help either. It seemed like the Leafs were expecting the refs to call a lot more penalties, and when it didn't happen, the kids learned that they would have to dig deep to get past the Bruins. It was a great learning experience in that way, even though they lost. I do wish they had worked to protect Anderson more as he was bumped and bruised an awful lot, especially in his head. I'm convinced he was hurt in the last game as he really wasn't himself. I feel as though it's just a mindset thing for the young Leafs, where they have to understand what it takes. The games don't get easier, and while they don't have to stand tall against tough, physical teams, they do have to stand up.

It's both a mental and physical thing. We need bigger bodies generally, but the Tampa Bay Lightning really took it to Boston physically. Guys like Point were not afraid to put themselves in harm's way, Stamkos wasn't all that effective offensively but took the body hard, their bigger guys like Killorn were like trucks against the Bruin defense. Our guys just wilted a bit. So a bit of maturity, steel and some minor upgrades would go a long way.

 

[Randy Randerson]

IMO, they don't need fighters to play tougher. Sure it may come to that and you need to answer but to me playing tougher is finishing checks, having the defense look over their shoulders on dump ins because they know they are getting hit. The Leafs made it far too easy at times for the opposition to leave the zone.

I also realize that with the makeup of the team, that is unlikely to happen and just adding a player won't make much of a difference.
It would help a bit though.

for sure, I don't think the Polak types helped much with the physical play that positively affects the game outcomes so that doesn't feel like a loss. Martin was a decent forechecker and helped to keep the puck in the offensive zone, but a guy like Leivo is a huge upgrade on the effective forechecking side even from there. Grundstrom fits that mold too, and I think we'll see that Johnsson/Kapanen are really effective there too despite not being "tough" or "gritty" players, but they'll be on the puck fast with their legs on dump ins and both have good sticks to feel the pressure - defenses might not feel like they got hit, but they'll feel the pressure to move the puck quickly and will make some mistakes in the process

 

[Gary Nylund]

After watching the Boston series, it was clear to me that the Bruins were pushing the physical game against the Leafs and it worked well. Kadri being kicked out of the bulk of the series didn't help either. It seemed like the Leafs were expecting the refs to call a lot more penalties, and when it didn't happen, the kids learned that they would have to dig deep to get past the Bruins. It was a great learning experience in that way, even though they lost. I do wish they had worked to protect Anderson more as he was bumped and bruised an awful lot, especially in his head. I'm convinced he was hurt in the last game as he really wasn't himself. I feel as though it's just a mindset thing for the young Leafs, where they have to understand what it takes. The games don't get easier, and while they don't have to stand tall against tough, physical teams, they do have to stand up.

Interesting thought! Is it as simple as that - everyone learned something and will dig in next spring? No guarantee that this is the case but maybe it is, who knows.

It's a great "I told you so" moment, but this is why it stings to not have Dion anymore. We are in need of a top 4 D and lack toughness.

LOL "stings". Try to picture us being stuck with his 7m cap hit for 3 more years and the impact that would have on our roster, that should take the sting away almost instantly.

 

[Legion34]

I agree fully.

You can't ice a team full of skilled waterbugs and think other teams won't expose your weaknesses.

Dubas is too young and naive at this time to understand the league will auto-correct and size with skill will always be the preferred team building strategy as size provides inherited advantage when it comes to winning puck battles. Physicality will always be a part of the NHL or we will soon be a figure skating league and teams will use their team toughness to force their will on small, soft teams to offset skill. I'm surprised Shanny a gritty player in his time and the exact style of player the Leafs lack today hasn't had more influence on his young GM or the Shanna-Plan doesn't have more teeth that can bite back on the roster.

Boston in last years playoffs made Matthews and Nylander invisible and irrelevant using size and toughness to nullify high-end skill. Instead of Leafs recognizing this they went even smaller and let all their few players with any form of grit in Komarov, Polak and Martin etc all go and are replacing them with Johnsson, Ennis and Carrick all players sub 6' and little to no intestinal fortitude.

Lou Lam with 30 years of experience quickly added Leo and Matt Martin to his NYI team understanding the importance of players with pushback ability or your skilled players will be intimidated and abused without retribution.

Babcock loves players that compete and can win puck battles and he will need more player personnel that allows his team to match up better against the opposition or its like bringing a Knife to a Gun fight and you will lose in the long run.

You always have a narrative and tend to twist everything into a ingle theme. I can’t figure it out this time.

Are you mad that we didn’t keep lou or something? Your posts seem to be all over the place recently

 

[Legion34]

The only thing this team needs is to stop making 10 ft passes from the top of the circles to the blueline

 

[X66]

Agreed

A young Wendel Clark on the Leafs today scoring 40 goals a year while adding 100 Pims playing his game in the top 6 on top PP unit would go a long way to solidifying the Leafs as difficult team to play against.

Right now team toughness and lack of push-back ability seems like a recognizable and therefore exploitable weakness until addressed.

The problem is, you called Dubas naive for not addressing this in the few months he's been here.

You just attacked him for no reason.

What did Lou and Hunter do to address this to your liking?

 

[Stephen]

Also, a young Wendel Clark doesn't exist in the NHL.

 

[Stephen]

The problem around the adding “toughness” debate Is that some folks tend to use it as a justification to want to keep or sign absolutely terrible players just because they have that one aspect to their game. Guys like Martin, Lucic, Komarov are NOT the answer because they’re pretty lousy hockey players at this point in their careers. And having a tough guy out on the ice can’t actually play hockey well is as self-defeating as somebody who is scared of their own shadow.

Ideally the leafs will be able to flush out this part of the roster by internal development - guys like Grundstrom (and maybe Korshkov if he ever makes it over) will add that.

I think people fall into the trap of gross simplification, as if you wanted to get someone over 6'2" they are a thug or someone with physicality means you don't buy into analytics. All those diverse types and role players are part of a winning team. It's important to have those roles covered to play as many situations as possible.

 

[IPS]

I think we need a couple defensemen to punish forwards in corners and in front of the net. Gardiner and Rielly would look much better if they had partners to do that.

At forward though? We're fine. We have a lot of puck-hungry forecheckers and a very strong center core with good puck protection skills down low. Other teams D-men can't really overpower our forwards, but their forwards can likely overpower our D-men.

 

[Mess]

I don't think you need to overpay to get toughness. Those guys will still be out there and still available up to the trade deadline.

It's hard to disagree with this article though. WSH had plenty of toughness as well as skill.

Tom Wilson, Devante Smith-Pelly and Brooks Orpik all played key roles in Caps Cup win and all were re-signed and brought back because Cap GM understood their contribution to the teams success.

Tom Wilson put up 5-10- 15 points in 21 games playing on the top line with OV and hitting everything in site.
Smith-Pelly scored 7 goals (2 GWG) as 4th liner.
Orpik made sure Holtby could see pucks clearly and made it painful for teams to stand in the blue paint.

Leafs don't feel the need for that ilk as 5-10 speedster Andreas Johnsson is being added instead of Tom Wilson type, 5-10 Connor Carrick (whom Babcock didn't even want to play) is resigned and replaces Polak on RHD 3rd pairing and instead of finding a Smith-Pelly type 4th line power-forward Leafs brought in 5-8 Tyler Ennis who was bought out.

Seems as Leafs saw what was successful in winning and then decided to do the exact opposite and let all team grit go and replaced with small, soft players.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I don't think there's much point in half assing anything. If you can build a team of angry big fellas with skill like Winnipeg or Washington, absolutely. But it works for them because they team is like that top to bottom. Adding in a physical winger or two doesn't really change much for us. I'd rather overload on skill if we can't build a completely big team overnight.

Downgrading from elite skill to very good skill + mediocre physicality isn't worth it for me. Take one of the extremes, don't make yourself average to make Don Cherry happy.

 

[Leafsman]

Which is smarter? Adjust to your opponent OR have your opponent adjust to you.

I feel Dubas/Shanny have built a team that demands opponents adjust THEIR strategy. Much like "bringing a knife to a gun fight" teams will be exposed if they try to win by bringing "grit to a skill fight." This team is three lines deep and could likely just role with three lines for an entire game. If an opponent wants to throw a gritty 4th line over the board and play "old school" hockey, I'm sure Babcock would be more than happy.

If you know an opponent has a team with some heavy-hitters you could adjust the lines and match with a Hyman-Kadri-Kappy/Grundstrom/Brown line that would be able to withstand a little sandpaper and still more than cash in on opportunities awarded from the other team trying to play more physical.

The real test is the playoffs when everyone is a little more rundown but that can be addressed through TD or by then maybe a Marchment/Jooris.

I also noticed no mention of Borgman who may develop into a useable bottom-pairing guy and can definitely throw some hits.

 

[ottomaddox]

Interesting thought! Is it as simple as that - everyone learned something and will dig in next spring? No guarantee that this is the case but maybe it is, who knows.



LOL "stings". Try to picture us being stuck with his 7m cap hit for 3 more years and the impact that would have on our roster, that should take the sting away almost instantly.

Yeah. I get it.

I just hate hate hate that we are missing these things.

 

[Liminality]

Tom Wilson, Devante Smith-Pelly and Brooks Orpik all played key roles in Caps Cup win and all were re-signed and brought back because Cap GM understood their contribution to the teams success.

Tom Wilson put up 5-10- 15 points in 21 games playing on the top line with OV and hitting everything in site.
Smith-Pelly scored 7 goals (2 GWG) as 4th liner.
Orpik made sure Holtby could see pucks clearly and made it painful for teams to stand in the blue paint.

Leafs don't feel the need for that ilk as 5-10 speedster Andreas Johnsson is being added instead of Tom Wilson type, 5-10 Connor Carrick (whom Babcock didn't even want to play) is resigned and replaces Polak on RHD 3rd pairing and instead of finding a Smith-Pelly type 4th line power-forward Leafs brought in 5-8 Tyler Ennis who was bought out.

Seems as Leafs saw what was successful in winning and then decided to do the exact opposite and let all team grit go and replaced with small, soft players.

You're right, the Leafs can't be successful at all this season. Should have gotten that 4th line slow grinder or bottom pairing bruising d to lead us to the cup.

 

[nsleaf]

IMO, toughness is a state of mind. A 5' 10" player can be just as tough as 6' 4". Leafs need a little "state of mind adjustment". Hopefully that happened with the loss to Boston last Spring.

 

[Liminality]

IMO, toughness is a state of mind. A 5' 10" player can be just as tough as 6' 4". Leafs need a little "state of mind adjustment". Hopefully that happened with the loss to Boston last Spring.

Think that happens with age for some players too.

 

[Menzinger]

I think people fall into the trap of gross simplification, as if you wanted to get someone over 6'2" they are a thug or someone with physicality means you don't buy into analytics. All those diverse types and role players are part of a winning team. It's important to have those roles covered to play as many situations as possible.

Very good point. I also add that people tend to presume that just because a guy is under 6 foot they somehow can’t be “tough” or they have to be a certain weight in order to be gritty

 

[Menzinger]

Tom Wilson, Devante Smith-Pelly and Brooks Orpik all played key roles in Caps Cup win and all were re-signed and brought back because Cap GM understood their contribution to the teams success.

Tom Wilson put up 5-10- 15 points in 21 games playing on the top line with OV and hitting everything in site.
Smith-Pelly scored 7 goals (2 GWG) as 4th liner.
Orpik made sure Holtby could see pucks clearly and made it painful for teams to stand in the blue paint.

Leafs don't feel the need for that ilk as 5-10 speedster Andreas Johnsson is being added instead of Tom Wilson type, 5-10 Connor Carrick (whom Babcock didn't even want to play) is resigned and replaces Polak on RHD 3rd pairing and instead of finding a Smith-Pelly type 4th line power-forward Leafs brought in 5-8 Tyler Ennis who was bought out.

Seems as Leafs saw what was successful in winning and then decided to do the exact opposite and let all team grit go and replaced with small, soft players.

This take is beyond absurd.

Losing guys like Polak will make the team better in the long run, he’s a shell of who he used to be. You also seem to be using height as some arbitrary measure of toughness which doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

 

[ottomaddox]

I didn't watch the Marlies too closely, but they had some grit no?

Hopefully Dubas recognizes that.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

You can still get tougher while adding skill. Trade with Philly for Simmonds and Gudas. Those two would make a world of difference.

 

[frog]

I feel like dubas doesnt value toughness but then babcock who is on the bench, ice level and truly sees and grasps whats happening will urge dubas to add toughness. Toughness isnt somthing you value sitting at home eating doritos, taking a bath while watching the leaf game on tv.. Its what you see when you are down on ice level.

 

[Liminality]

Since people keep bringing up the Boston series I'll throw around a couple of stats that those people might like.

Hits
Leafs 216
Bruins 221

Blocked shots
Leafs 102
Bruins 95

Giveaways
Leafs 79
Bruins 67

Takeaways
Leafs 66
Bruins 38

This was a close series but people around here make it seem like we got swept because of their physicality. It's quite reactionary and seems like an excuse to push a certain agenda by some posters.

 

[Charles Chuck Finley]

I don't think adding toughness is the answer, some of the players we have maturing and getting stronger will help. Guys like Nylander, Marner, Dermott, Kapanen and Matthews will all get tougher to play against over the next year or two.

Don't forget this team held multiple leads in game 7 against a good Boston team. They've shown they can at the minimum, play with the top teams in the league. Now they've added Tavares to that. IMO, better to leave the skill high and let the existing players mature and toughen up a bit.

 

[Liminality]

I don't think adding toughness is the answer, some of the players we have maturing and getting stronger will help. Guys like Nylander, Marner, Dermott, Kapanen and Matthews will all get tougher to play against over the next year or two.

Don't forget this team held multiple leads in game 7 against a good Boston team. They've shown they can at the minimum, play with the top teams in the league. Now they've added Tavares to that. IMO, better to leave the skill high and let the existing players mature and toughen up a bit.

The main reason the Bruins won imo was the shutdown set up they had on Matthews and Nylander. What did the Leafs do? Add Tavares to make it that much more difficult to match up.