News Article: [Paywall] The NHL is shifting to more of a skill-first league, have the Maple Leafs over-corrected?

[ACC1224]

What?

We need more pushback and comparing the teams from what Nonis had to today’s team is a joke. Far different teams based on talent. This does not mean we need to ship players out but do but need some more players who are at least willing to take a check to make a play. Anyone who watched our series against Boston who did not come away with the thought that we were pushed around and physical intimidated either did not watch or are lying to them self’s. Hyman was our best player on our top line and it was not even close.

This does not mean that we need to ship out several player and trade for slow skating thugs but it sure was a great indicator that we need our current players to at a bare minimum to man up.

Good post

Maybe toughness is for guys who lead the "In Nonis we trust" or "defence wins championships" movement, but the issue is those teams have end of season callapses as we saw with Clarkson and Bolland. Skilled water bugs are more valuable then slow tree trunks that get abused talent wise and dont seem to win.
People like Dino Lou are too past the times to understand this, and dont know that slow tree trunk teams get intimidated on the score board.

Rookie GM's like Dubas are incredibly smart and follow the current trend of the league. You be a size team, well expect terrible embarrassing seasons that the "in Nonis we trust" movement was famous for. Good thing is Dubas has a skilled team.

Not so good a post, pretty bad to be brutally honest.

 

[stickty111]

Good post



Not so good a post, pretty bad to be brutally honest.

No its a good post. Pretty great to be brutally honest. You just didnt like it because I was criticizing Nonis.

 

[Spirit of 67]

The kids growing into their man bodies will help.

No real reason to get too worried just yet. We've had 2 seasons since finishing last. 2 seasons in which no one thought we could make the playoffs after finishing last.

Perhaps it's time for a bit of perspective.

 

[stickty111]

What?

We need more pushback and comparing the teams from what Nonis had to today’s team is a joke. Far different teams based on talent. This does not mean we need to ship players out but do but need some more players who are at least willing to take a check to make a play. Anyone who watched our series against Boston who did not come away with the thought that we were pushed around and physical intimidated either did not watch or are lying to them self’s. Hyman was our best player on our top line and it was not even close.

This does not mean that we need to ship out several player and trade for slow skating thugs but it sure was a great indicator that we need our current players to at a bare minimum to man up.

:

 

[IBeL34f]

At that point I do wonder if the author has even watched the Leafs play games. Who the heck has Hyman thrown the gloves down to fight anyways? He works hard and goes into the corner. But he's not a guy going around punishing the opposition. That isn't his role on the lines he is on. Grunt work in the corners and fight for that puck.

Kadri I can at least remember dropping the gloves with guys like Backes and Thornton. He does actually throw hits.

Hyman did fight someone this past year - Can't remember who, though.

Size and toughness are overblown, in my opinion - Useful tools, sure, but if other options are available (using your stick, skating, etc.) they're usually more effective, as they don't often take the aggressor out of the play.

I'd rather over-correct and be looking to add size later than be behind the 8-ball, looking for skill and speed in 2018/19. Besides, it's not like this "over-correction" has seen us shipping out players with both talent and grit in order to bring in little speedsters - We've been adding talent where we can get it, indiscriminately. When big, tough guys who can play become available, I'm sure we'll look into adding them just as heavily as we do any other talented player.

 

[ACC1224]

No its a good post. Pretty great to be brutally honest. You just didnt like it because I was criticizing Nonis.

ok

 

[Fogelhund]

My man Tucker had 59 and 61 point seasons. We won't have another player like him again.

Tucker was great, but let's be honest... his 61 point season was all about him, being useful enough to be a beneficiary of Sundin's brilliance on the PP. 36 of 61 points on the PP, and I'd bet the majority were of those that were goals, were the same tip ins, from a Sundin pass. His 59 point season, was off of 19.6% shooting... Tucker had a few good years, until his style of play was figured out. Not that I wouldn't take a couple of good years, of a similar guy now... I would... but he had a very short shelf life, and was primarily a beneficiary of Sundin... not too different than Hyman with Matthews really.

 

[Liminality]

Tucker was great, but let's be honest... his 61 point season was all about him, being useful enough to be a beneficiary of Sundin's brilliance on the PP. 36 of 61 points on the PP, and I'd bet the majority were of those that were goals, were the same tip ins, from a Sundin pass. His 59 point season, was off of 19.6% shooting... Tucker had a few good years, until his style of play was figured out. Not that I wouldn't take a couple of good years, of a similar guy now... I would... but he had a very short shelf life, and was primarily a beneficiary of Sundin... not too different than Hyman with Matthews really.

I thought it was the Wellwood/Tucker connection on the PP which exploded his point totals for a couple of years.

Man Wellwood was pretty good on the powerplay cause he didn't have to move that much. Tucker also benefited from standing beside the net and waiting for those perfect tap in passes.

 

[8816 others]

Lucic at 50% retained, a 3rd for Horton, McBackup, and Leivo

 

[Fogelhund]

I thought it was the Wellwood/Tucker connection on the PP which exploded his point totals for a couple of years.

Man Wellwood was pretty good on the powerplay cause he didn't have to move that much. Tucker also benefited from standing beside the net and waiting for those perfect tap in passes.

Crap video, but the first I found. Tucker standing beside the net, Sundin perfect pass. That was the PP, Tucker Bread and Butter.

 

[Cor]

Tucker was great, but let's be honest... his 61 point season was all about him, being useful enough to be a beneficiary of Sundin's brilliance on the PP. 36 of 61 points on the PP, and I'd bet the majority were of those that were goals, were the same tip ins, from a Sundin pass. His 59 point season, was off of 19.6% shooting... Tucker had a few good years, until his style of play was figured out. Not that I wouldn't take a couple of good years, of a similar guy now... I would... but he had a very short shelf life, and was primarily a beneficiary of Sundin... not too different than Hyman with Matthews really.

The Tucker-Sundin-Mogilny line and powerplay was so brilliant. Sundin and Mogilny would draw in the defenders, and Tucker could slip in on the other side of the net for a tap in.

LOVED that line.

Which could explain why I'm a supporter of Hyman being with Matthews or Tavares with Nylander or Marner on the wing.

 

[Cor]

Lucic at 50% retained, a 3rd for Horton, McBackup, and Leivo

Lucic at 50% is worth a lot more than that.

 

[ACC1224]

Lucic at 50% retained, a 3rd for Horton, McBackup, and Leivo

1/2 price Lucic would cost more than that I would think.

 

[Big Cactus]

My man Tucker had 59 and 61 point seasons. We won't have another player like him again.

I’d argue kadri is our current day tucker. Maybe not as physical or insane but much more skilled and built better for today’s game.

 

[Randy Randerson]

seems like there's strong opinions on both sides, but at the very least I would wait to see how we hold up without any designated goons. This year is looking like our first real foray into that, without Martin and Polak, and the whole league has been going this way for a while. If it's a problem, we deal with the problem when it's identified...in the meantime, don't stress over hypotheticals

if it does end up being a problem, we're buyers in a buyers' market for toughness as the whole league moves towards more talent, super easy commodity to come by if we need some. Also think Dermott and Rielly are being underrated here for their physical abilities, Borgman too if he makes it. Maybe not fighters but it's hard to scrum with a guy who's 6' and 210-220lbs, low centers of gravity

 

[ACC1224]

seems like there's strong opinions on both sides, but at the very least I would wait to see how we hold up without any designated goons. This year is looking like our first real foray into that, without Martin and Polak, and the whole league has been going this way for a while. If it's a problem, we deal with the problem when it's identified...in the meantime, don't stress over hypotheticals

if it does end up being a problem, we're buyers in a buyers' market for toughness as the whole league moves towards more talent, super easy commodity to come by if we need some. Also think Dermott and Rielly are being underrated here for their physical abilities, Borgman too if he makes it. Maybe not fighters but it's hard to scrum with a guy who's 6' and 210-220lbs, low centers of gravity

I don't think anyone is on the "designated goon" side.

 

[Randy Randerson]

I don't think anyone is on the "designated goon" side.

not the way that the Belak/Boogaard ilk were, but in the sense that if someone is fighting you know who it is - the Martin/Polak types

 

[Mess]

I don't think anyone is on the "designated goon" side.

Agreed

A young Wendel Clark on the Leafs today scoring 40 goals a year while adding 100 Pims playing his game in the top 6 on top PP unit would go a long way to solidifying the Leafs as difficult team to play against.

Right now team toughness and lack of push-back ability seems like a recognizable and therefore exploitable weakness until addressed.

 

[ACC1224]

not the way that the Belak/Boogaard ilk were, but in the sense that if someone is fighting you know who it is - the Martin/Polak types

IMO, they don't need fighters to play tougher. Sure it may come to that and you need to answer but to me playing tougher is finishing checks, having the defense look over their shoulders on dump ins because they know they are getting hit. The Leafs made it far too easy at times for the opposition to leave the zone.

I also realize that with the makeup of the team, that is unlikely to happen and just adding a player won't make much of a difference.
It would help a bit though.

 

[ACC1224]

Agreed

A young Wendel Clark on the Leafs today scoring 40 goals a year while adding 100 Pims playing his game in the top 6 on top PP unit would go a long way to solidifying the Leafs as difficult team to play against.

Right now team toughness and lack of push-back ability seems like a recognizable and therefore exploitable weakness until addressed.

yeah, one of the young Tkachuk's would be perfect.

 

[Falon]

After watching the Boston series, it was clear to me that the Bruins were pushing the physical game against the Leafs and it worked well. Kadri being kicked out of the bulk of the series didn't help either. It seemed like the Leafs were expecting the refs to call a lot more penalties, and when it didn't happen, the kids learned that they would have to dig deep to get past the Bruins. It was a great learning experience in that way, even though they lost. I do wish they had worked to protect Anderson more as he was bumped and bruised an awful lot, especially in his head. I'm convinced he was hurt in the last game as he really wasn't himself. I feel as though it's just a mindset thing for the young Leafs, where they have to understand what it takes. The games don't get easier, and while they don't have to stand tall against tough, physical teams, they do have to stand up.

 

[ottomaddox]

If you don't have a subscription I recommend it but I thought this article was worth discussing. The Author makes a very good point that while he agrees the roster is constructed for today's NHL, you need some toughness in the lineup, a point that has been brought up over the offseason.

He later goes on to say that Babcock will not stand for his team getting run over, and will push Dubas to add toughness if he feels they need it. This is a bit scary considering that means likely overpaying for toughness either through assets or through dollars.

Bourne: The NHL is shifting to more of a skill-first league,...

I don't think you need to overpay to get toughness. Those guys will still be out there and still available up to the trade deadline.

It's hard to disagree with this article though. WSH had plenty of toughness as well as skill.

 

[Menzinger]

The problem around the adding “toughness” debate Is that some folks tend to use it as a justification to want to keep or sign absolutely terrible players just because they have that one aspect to their game. Guys like Martin, Lucic, Komarov are NOT the answer because they’re pretty lousy hockey players at this point in their careers. And having a tough guy out on the ice can’t actually play hockey well is as self-defeating as somebody who is scared of their own shadow.

Ideally the leafs will be able to flush out this part of the roster by internal development - guys like Grundstrom (and maybe Korshkov if he ever makes it over) will add that.

 

[IBeL34f]

After watching the Boston series, it was clear to me that the Bruins were pushing the physical game against the Leafs and it worked well. Kadri being kicked out of the bulk of the series didn't help either. It seemed like the Leafs were expecting the refs to call a lot more penalties, and when it didn't happen, the kids learned that they would have to dig deep to get past the Bruins. It was a great learning experience in that way, even though they lost. I do wish they had worked to protect Anderson more as he was bumped and bruised an awful lot, especially in his head. I'm convinced he was hurt in the last game as he really wasn't himself. I feel as though it's just a mindset thing for the young Leafs, where they have to understand what it takes. The games don't get easier, and while they don't have to stand tall against tough, physical teams, they do have to stand up.

I agree, a lot of this kind of mental Playoff-toughness that people are looking for comes from experience, and a lot of our guys are too young to have gained that experience so early.
Give them some time to fully understand how the game tightens up when the stakes are raised, and they'll turn out better for it. (This goes double for a guy like Matthews, who will eventually learn just how big and strong he is.)
Occasionally, players come into the League and dominate the Playoffs like they're nothing, but that should hardly be the expectation, even if you're talking about players with phenomenal talent. These guys will get there.

 

[ottomaddox]

It's a great "I told you so" moment, but this is why it stings to not have Dion anymore. We are in need of a top 4 D and lack toughness.