Speculation: Paul Martin for Justin Williams

[blueliner18]

I just think there is a bigger return to be had if you package Martin with...? Instead of a "swap" of pending UFA's. I just have this bad feeling if Williams does come to PIT they will try to sign him for too long and too much. He'll be the new Scuderi, ironically from the same team!

 

[cheesedanish87]

Yeah the Crapitals end up giving players waaaaaay more money than they deserve, huh must be something about those D.C. teams!!!

I heard Orpik actually turned down more money from the Av's.

I just remember hearing so many of the same things said about Orpik last year that are said about Scuderi this year.

I don't think many posters have a good idea of what a players value is on the open market.

Tanner Glass is another example.

 

[Winger for Hire]

That's your opinion. but i disagree.

I remember last year on hear i read over and over again how bad Orpik was.

Orpik ended up signing a 5 year 27.5 million dollar contract.

I don't think anyone thought Brook was untradable. Just that his time was up on the Pens.

Getting a contract in the offseason doesn't have anything to do with his tradability the previous season.

 

[blueliner18]

I heard Orpik actually turned down more money from the Av's.

I just remember hearing so many of the same things said about Orpik last year that are said about Scuderi this year.

I don't think many posters have a good idea of what a players value is on the open market.

Tanner Glass is another example.

Like many others I think Orpik was a victim of Bylsma's "game". Under a different coach and different system I think he would have performed much better the last few years. Look at Letang for gawd sake... people wanted to run him out of town last year. All because Bylsma wanted his defensemen to move the puck quick and not carry the mail. This year Letang seems like a completely different player. Don't get me started about Despres. Regardless Orpik still isn't worth that $27.5mil contract.

 

[billybudd]

I just think there is a bigger return to be had if you package Martin with...? Instead of a "swap" of pending UFA's. I just have this bad feeling if Williams does come to PIT they will try to sign him for too long and too much. He'll be the new Scuderi, ironically from the same team!

If Capgeek was around, I'd link the team page to show you how many obstacles there are to this course of action.

 

[Klifton]

Just for a moment, imagine what this team would look like if we traded Martin for Williams, and then Duper ended up getting cleared to play in the playoffs. (I know its unlikely, but it IS possible.)

Perron - Crosby - Hornqvist
Bennett - Malkin - Williams
Kunitz - Sutter - Dupuis
Comeau - Goc - Downie

Despres - Letang
Maatta - Ehrhoff
Scuderi - Bortuzzo

Sid gets his wingers, Geno gets a Willie AND a Beauner, and Sutter gets Sid's leftovers. (Plus the return of CGD, which was damn good earlier this year.) That, my friends, is a scary, scary roster.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Like many others I think Orpik was a victim of Bylsma's "game". Under a different coach and different system I think he would have performed much better the last few years. Look at Letang for gawd sake... people wanted to run him out of town last year. All because Bylsma wanted his defensemen to move the puck quick and not carry the mail. This year Letang seems like a completely different player. Don't get me started about Despres. Regardless Orpik still isn't worth that $27.5mil contract.

I never remember reading Orpik being bad because of DB system, i did hear that a lot about Letang though.

I think the majority thought Orpik was done as a player.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I just think there is a bigger return to be had if you package Martin with...? Instead of a "swap" of pending UFA's. I just have this bad feeling if Williams does come to PIT they will try to sign him for too long and too much. He'll be the new Scuderi, ironically from the same team!

They wouldn't have to sign Williams if they traded for him. He would be the perfect rental, because you'd be giving up an expiring contract to get him. It wouldn't be like Morrow or Iggy where you gave up long term assets and have nothing to show for them. If he walks, fine because Martin was/is going to walk anyways (maybe, speculation).

 

[billybudd]

I never remember reading Orpik being bad because of DB system, i did hear that a lot about Letang though.

I think the majority thought Orpik was done as a player.

Orpik sucks. Really stupid penalty last night (even though Schenn? took an obvious dive).

Niskanen's the one that cost them the game last night (on a Giroux obvious dive).

Must be nice having friends in the league office that look the other way on diving.

 

[SEALBound]

Just for a moment, imagine what this team would look like if we traded Martin for Williams, and then Duper ended up getting cleared to play in the playoffs. (I know its unlikely, but it IS possible.)

Perron - Crosby - Hornqvist
Bennett - Malkin - Williams
Kunitz - Sutter - Dupuis
Comeau - Goc - Downie

Despres - Letang
Maatta - Ehrhoff
Scuderi - Bortuzzo

Sid gets his wingers, Geno gets a Willie AND a Beauner, and Sutter gets Sid's leftovers. (Plus the return of CGD, which was damn good earlier this year.) That, my friends, is a scary, scary roster.

Assuming Dupuis came back, I'd be okay with that lineup. If he doesn't, move Downie up, replace with Spaling. Still a very deep team if everyone stays healthy.

Why I am interested in Williams is purely due to the nature of the 1:1 swap of UFAs and trading from a strength to fill a weakness. Is Williams an ideal fit, nah. Would I be more than accepting of him slotting into in the Top 6 here, yes. Its just that, given the play of the younger guys I'm just not sure that Martin+a weaker top 6 is better overall than Non-Martin+a stronger Top 6. Any way we slice it, the defense does get worse without Martin and the wing situation is worse without Williams. Its just, where do we feel we are in the best position to overcome the weaker area? I say its defense. I say Despres slots into Martins position and Bortuzzo takes over Despres's spot on the bottom pairing. If we don't do that, or something to that effect, we have to rely on a bottom 6 forward to fill in the top 6. Given our recent scoring struggles...I'm not so sure that's a slam dunk. If an injury occurs, we are much better equipped to compensate at defense than forwards.

Given Williams playoff heroics to boot...I'd be all for the swap. I rather take the chance with a weaker defense than a weaker offense.

 

[blueliner18]

I never remember reading Orpik being bad because of DB system, i did hear that a lot about Letang though.

I think the majority thought Orpik was done as a player.

I think all of our defensemen were uncomfortable under Bylsma's system. The only one who really did not seem effected was Martin and even he really struggled his second season with the Pens. I blame a lot of MAF's past problems on DB as well. DB's defensive philosophy... play more offense, stick on puck, move the puck up ice quick. If and when that broke down (especially in the playoffs) Fleury was tasked with making 3 saves in a row several times a game. Hell look at the Flyer series from 2012. How many uncontested shots did MAF face in that series?

 

[joeyjake5]

That's your opinion. but i disagree.

I remember last year on hear i read over and over again how bad Orpik was.

Orpik ended up signing a 5 year 27.5 million dollar contract.

Would you trade for Orpik now. One man's crap is another man's gold. I certainly hope the caps are happy with him.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I never remember reading Orpik being bad because of DB system, i did hear that a lot about Letang though.

I think the majority thought Orpik was done as a player.

Orpik stated a couple seasons before he'd rather play defense. DB's system was anything but a traditional defensive system. Note: Players also complained it was too complicated.

DB's system was bad plain and simple, and he thought the way they won the cup was too taxing to run for a full season and playoffs. His was keep it north as long as you can and set a time limit to get the puck out of their own zone. Passive zone coverage.

If I had my choice without thinking about the cap, I'd take Orpik over Scuderi 1000 times out of 1000.

DB ruined a good bit around this organization.

 

[blueliner18]

They wouldn't have to sign Williams if they traded for him. He would be the perfect rental, because you'd be giving up an expiring contract to get him. It wouldn't be like Morrow or Iggy where you gave up long term assets and have nothing to show for them. If he walks, fine because Martin was/is going to walk anyways (maybe, speculation).

Yeah, but if Williams is a bust or under performs we are gonna wish we held onto Martin. We know what we have with Martin, getting Williams and having him repeat past playoff performances would be 50/50 at best.

 

[blueliner18]

Orpik stated a couple seasons before he'd rather play defense. DB's system was anything but a traditional defensive system. Note: Players also complained it was too complicated.

DB's system was bad plain and simple, and he thought the way they won the cup was too taxing to run for a full season and playoffs. His was keep it north as long as you can and set a time limit to get the puck out of their own zone. Passive zone coverage.

If I had my choice without thinking about the cap, I'd take Orpik over Scuderi 1000 times out of 1000.

DB ruined a good bit around this organization.

Unfortunately truer words have never been spoken my friend.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Orpik sucks. Really stupid penalty last night (even though Schenn? took an obvious dive).

Niskanen's the one that cost them the game last night (on a Giroux obvious dive).

Must be nice having friends in the league office that look the other way on diving.

I thought RJ Umberger was washed up, he ended up getting traded for a decent player in Hartnell

I thought Briere was washed up as a player, he ended up getting traded for a decent player in PAP.

It really doesn't matter what we think of the players, the only opinion that matters is the GM's.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Yeah, but if Williams is a bust or under performs we are gonna wish we held onto Martin. We know what we have with Martin, getting Williams and having him repeat past playoff performances would be 50/50 at best.

And if Martin under performs in the playoffs this year, we're gonna wish they took the Williams offer. Either way there is risk. I'd rather take the gamble on shoring up a weakness and letting the youth free, but I understand that's not everyone's cup of tea.

 

[joeyjake5]

Orpik stated a couple seasons before he'd rather play defense. DB's system was anything but a traditional defensive system. Note: Players also complained it was too complicated.

DB's system was bad plain and simple, and he thought the way they won the cup was too taxing to run for a full season and playoffs. His was keep it north as long as you can and set a time limit to get the puck out of their own zone. Passive zone coverage.

If I had my choice without thinking about the cap, I'd take Orpik over Scuderi 1000 times out of 1000.

DB ruined a good bit around this organization.

But only if the contracts were equal.

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah, but if Williams is a bust or under performs we are gonna wish we held onto Martin. We know what we have with Martin, getting Williams and having him repeat past playoff performances would be 50/50 at best.

2009-2010 Kings 3 0 1 1 0 2 0 0 0 4 0.0
2010-2011 Kings 6 3 1 4 0 2 1 0 0 16 18.8
2011-2012 Kings 20 4 11 15 8 12 1 0 0 58 6.9
2012-2013 Kings 18 6 3 9 0 8 1 0 2 57 10.5
2013-2014 Kings 26 9 16 25 13 35 2 0 2 67 13.4
NHL TOTALS 115 30 48 78 32 105 5 1 6 309 9.7

His playoff numbers are quite good all things considered. Both cup runs he scored at a pace that could really help us. That's a Ryan Malone / Max Talbot / James Neal level performance. More than 0.5 PPG is going to help us. To say 50/50...you're betting against him.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I don't think anyone thought Brook was untradable. Just that his time was up on the Pens.

Getting a contract in the offseason doesn't have anything to do with his tradability the previous season.

Well its not a direct correlation but if there are two team willing to pay a guy 5.5+ he obviously hold a good chunk of value to those teams and possible more.

 

[DoughtyforNorris]

No way that Williams goes for cheap, he plays with more heart and kills himself out there every night. He loves the Kings, the locker room and I don't see him leaving LA. Stoll on the other hand is a great 3rd line center, he is one of the best face off guys on the ice. With that said, Martin is a decent, but does not equal a Colin Smythe award winning winger. The Kings will shop higher than Martin, even if a first round pick is involved. Mr. Game 7 will stay in LA. Stoll may leave, he is a great center and face off contributor, he came out of the break with hip issues, but is still playing well. Richards is trade bait to the right team for the right return, hard to see this happening if we do well in the playoffs, but we will see. Richards is underrated in aspects of being a defensive forward, penalty killer, and overall leader. He did lead the Flyers to the Stanley Cup as their Captain. Having many enables the Kings to survive 3 game 7s and to the Final to beat the Rangers.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Would you trade for Orpik now. One man's crap is another man's gold. I certainly hope the caps are happy with him.

I wouldn't, but my opinion doesn't determine what a players value is, its the Gm's opinions that matter.

I think some of the dumbest things i see on this board is when fans of a team try to make trades with other fans from different teams.

 

[Winger for Hire]

No way that Williams goes for cheap, he plays with more heart and kills himself out there every night. He loves the Kings, the locker room and I don't see him leaving LA. Stoll on the other hand is a great 3rd line center, he is one of the best face off guys on the ice. With that said, Martin is a decent, but does not equal a Colin Smythe award winning winger. The Kings will shop higher than Martin, even if a first round pick is involved. Mr. Game 7 will stay in LA. Stoll may leave, he is a great center and face off contributor, he came out of the break with hip issues, but is still playing well. Richards is trade bait to the right team for the right return, hard to see this happening if we do well in the playoffs, but we will see. Richards is underrated in aspects of being a defensive forward, penalty killer, and overall leader. He did lead the Flyers to the Stanley Cup as their Captain. Having many enables the Kings to survive 3 game 7s and to the Final to beat the Rangers.

Do I even want to know what the criteria for winning this is?

This sounds like a typical LA fan, in every sport.

 

[Dying Alive]

No way that Williams goes for cheap, he plays with more heart and kills himself out there every night. He loves the Kings, the locker room and I don't see him leaving LA. Stoll on the other hand is a great 3rd line center, he is one of the best face off guys on the ice. With that said, Martin is a decent, but does not equal a Colin Smythe award winning winger. The Kings will shop higher than Martin, even if a first round pick is involved. Mr. Game 7 will stay in LA. Stoll may leave, he is a great center and face off contributor, he came out of the break with hip issues, but is still playing well. Richards is trade bait to the right team for the right return, hard to see this happening if we do well in the playoffs, but we will see. Richards is underrated in aspects of being a defensive forward, penalty killer, and overall leader. He did lead the Flyers to the Stanley Cup as their Captain. Having many enables the Kings to survive 3 game 7s and to the Final to beat the Rangers.

A low payroll team trying to hit the salary cap floor would be your best bet. That contract is pretty bad.

Also, top pairing D = cheap.

 

[blueliner18]

2009-2010 Kings 3 0 1 1 0 2 0 0 0 4 0.0
2010-2011 Kings 6 3 1 4 0 2 1 0 0 16 18.8
2011-2012 Kings 20 4 11 15 8 12 1 0 0 58 6.9
2012-2013 Kings 18 6 3 9 0 8 1 0 2 57 10.5
2013-2014 Kings 26 9 16 25 13 35 2 0 2 67 13.4
NHL TOTALS 115 30 48 78 32 105 5 1 6 309 9.7

His playoff numbers are quite good all things considered. Both cup runs he scored at a pace that could really help us. That's a Ryan Malone / Max Talbot / James Neal level performance. More than 0.5 PPG is going to help us. To say 50/50...you're betting against him.

I know I understand he has been good with LA. LA plays a completely different style than the Pens. LA likes to grind you down and make bread out of your bones. Look at how they beat NYR to a pulp in the finals last year. NYR was definitely the faster team but LA played so physical NYR had nothing in the tank at the end of each game. Like another post said, it can be a gamble either way for both teams. Damned if we do damned if we don't.