Player Discussion: Patrik Laine - Part 20'ish or so

[Halberdier]

in the past perhaps, but he was an anchor for each line that got some significant TOI this year

Laine was certainly not an anchor when he was playing with Wheeler and Scheifele. If anything, he was the best player on that line. That said, Scheifele was having not his best play, and while Fefe recovered a bit later, he never found that game we did expect given how well he played earlier in the season and previous playoffs.

Also with Connor things were working quite nicely compared to ELL.

It's more about some lines and their playing styles meshing well together, while others didn't at all.

 

[DRW204]

Laine was certainly not an anchor when he was playing with Wheeler and Scheifele. If anything, he was the best player on that line. That said, Scheifele was having not his best play, and while Fefe recovered a bit later, he never found that game we did expect given how well he played earlier in the season and previous playoffs.

Also with Connor things were working quite nicely compared to ELL.

It's more about some lines and their playing styles meshing well together, while others didn't at all.

the line broke even in goals and was getting destroyed in shot share and xGs. he had like 3 assists in his time on that line, i guess that's good? i guess the bar was so low for him 3 assists is considered great. Ehlers-Scheifele-Wheeler was far better than with Laine. the with/without stats with Laine this season were staggering. He dragged down every teammate this season.

edit - according to NSS he had 225 EV mins on that line, Laine had 5 pts on that line combo, according to frozen (i forgot the ben chiarot shot off his leg that was a goal and an ENG against FLA at the beg of year). that's 1.33 Evp /60. 5v5 he had 197 mins 4 5v5 pts for 1.21 5v5 pts/60

 

[Farmboy Patty]

My point is that star caliber players are expected to make their line productive, not the other way around. If Laine is really a star, a mediocre 2nd line center shouldn't be able to hold him back. Laine has the potential to be a star but he's not there yet. You can maybe blame coaching (beyond linemates, i.e. what they tell him to focus on) for his development or lack thereof, but blaming Little who's a decent player is getting ridiculous.

I see your point and I disagree with it. Laine and Ehlers would make their lines more productive if the lines and style of play was more built around their unique strengths.

Even if it would take an elite playmaking genius to center Laine, he would still be a STAR in a true sense of the word when having 50 goal seasons. Maybe not the kind of star that you consider to be a “star”, but a unique and elite hockey player, still.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

Laine was certainly not an anchor when he was playing with Wheeler and Scheifele. If anything, he was the best player on that line. That said, Scheifele was having not his best play, and while Fefe recovered a bit later, he never found that game we did expect given how well he played earlier in the season and previous playoffs.

Also with Connor things were working quite nicely compared to ELL.

It's more about some lines and their playing styles meshing well together, while others didn't at all.

This horse has been beaten to death, buried, dug up and resurrected and then beaten again. Let it out of its misery. Some refuse to acknowledge the meaning of good line chemistry and ignore what is obvious after 3 seasons of play. This all would change if Mo had either balls or brains to mix up the top six and play a system that generates more chances off the rush with puck possession instead of playing a north-south dump and chase suited to Neanderthals.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

the line broke even in goals and was getting destroyed in shot share and xGs. he had like 3 assists in his time on that line, i guess that's good? i guess the bar was so low for him 3 assists is considered great. Ehlers-Scheifele-Wheeler was far better than with Laine. the with/without stats with Laine this season were staggering. He dragged down every teammate this season.

edit - according to NSS he had 225 EV mins on that line, Laine had 5 pts on that line combo, according to frozen (i forgot the ben chiarot shot off his leg that was a goal and an ENG against FLA at the beg of year). that's 1.33 Evp /60. 5v5 he had 197 mins 4 5v5 pts for 1.21 5v5 pts/60

You forgot to take into account that Schweeler sucked during that period, before Laine even played with them.

 

[Tommigun]

He is as fast as anyone not named Ehlers on the rush imo. I had a video earlier in this thread from when he was playing with 55/26, He was faster than Wheeler (with his million steps per minute) and Scheif, and he started backwards from a standstill. He was coasting and looking for a play as they passed the Bruins blue line.

He is much faster than anyone gives him credit for. I'll look for the video and post it again.

He was coasting? That lazy bastard!

 

[StumpyTown]

I know so many want to base this RFA contract only on his performance this past season. But the reality is that the Jets will have to pay him for his .464 goals per game scoring rate through his first 3 years. He also has been durable in that he has only missed 9 games in his career, all in his first season.
Management will know the truth as to whether he has actually been playing with chronic back issues or not so they clearly know what they have in Laine.
I personally still think this guy is going to be a monster in this league when, not if, he figures it out. Flashes were there in the playoffs and when he played with Scheifele and Wheeler.
He's going to cash in. I only hope it's a bridge so that the $$$ are a little less now and then reward him with the big money when some of the other big older salaries are gone.

 

[Howard Chuck]

I know so many want to base this RFA contract only on his performance this past season. But the reality is that the Jets will have to pay him for his .464 goals per game scoring rate through his first 3 years. He also has been durable in that he has only missed 9 games in his career, all in his first season.
Management will know the truth as to whether he has actually been playing with chronic back issues or not so they clearly know what they have in Laine.
I personally still think this guy is going to be a monster in this league when, not if, he figures it out. Flashes were there in the playoffs and when he played with Scheifele and Wheeler.
He's going to cash in. I only hope it's a bridge so that the $$$ are a little less now and then reward him with the big money when some of the other big older salaries are gone.

I agree. I try to stay out of the contract discussions simply because none of us knows what Chevy knows.

I'm absolutely certain that the Jets are fully aware of what he is capable of, why he had a down year, the status of his back, why he plays a certain way at certain times, his motivation, his character and everything else.

They will make the right decision for the team.

 

[Halberdier]

he's fast when he gets going for sure. but it's his acceleration and quickness. his rookie season like i said he'd be able to score in odd man rushes, how many did he have this year? KC, Ehlers, Tanev just to mention are much quicker and agile

Funny thing in that particular video was that while he was backwards when they started accelerating, he actually accelerated faster than Wheeler while looking slow. It's not about the looks, but about the actual speed. After a short acceleration he started coasting to not to overshoot, and for that reason Scheifele was able to pass him the puck.

To me it looks like his skating skills are really really good, but he still lacks raw explosive power to fully utilize his potential.

Wheeler seems to be the opposite: he for sure has all the power and his feet are going like a Singer sewing machine, but he is still slower than he looks. I guess his edge work is less efficient. In comparison it looks like Wheeler is jumping or running on skates, not skating.

 

[NotCommitted]

To me it looks like his skating skills are really really good, but he still lacks raw explosive power to fully utilize his potential.

Yeah, he is deceptively fast and in comparison to someone like Wheeler, superbly effective, but I still think he has a lot of work to do with his skating, and room for improvement. I don't think it's anything like the weakness some people make it out to be simply because of how he "looks", but compare him to Barkov for example...

The good thing is he's good friends with Barkov, and Barkov wasn't always very impressive skater... if going by my memory, I think he used to be a lot worse than Laine is, but then again I think his back problems were also way more severe.

Btw. at this point I wouldn't be too worried about Laine's back issues, they don't seem that severe since he has never even missed a game for them. He's a big guy who has done a lot of growing in all directions past 5 years, based on the (very little) information we have, I would guess it's something that won't be an issue at all in a couple years anymore.

 

[abax44]

I read it that he's not gonna start training until he has a contract signed.

Then I think you've misread it, as that would be a poor move on any hockey players part. He's going to play hockey eventually, why wait until he has a contract?

 

[Howard Chuck]

Funny thing in that particular video was that while he was backwards when they started accelerating, he actually accelerated faster than Wheeler while looking slow. It's not about the looks, but about the actual speed. After a short acceleration he started coasting to not to overshoot, and for that reason Scheifele was able to pass him the puck.

To me it looks like his skating skills are really really good, but he still lacks raw explosive power to fully utilize his potential.

Wheeler seems to be the opposite: he for sure has all the power and his feet are going like a Singer sewing machine, but he is still slower than he looks. I guess his edge work is less efficient. In comparison it looks like Wheeler is jumping or running on skates, not skating.

That was the exact point I wanted to make with that video. Wheeler LOOKS fast and Laine LOOKS slow, but I think Laine is actually quite a bit faster even from a standstill.

He just can't maneuver in a small space as well as a small player. This is the exact reason why he is so effective off the rush as opposed to a cycle or dump/chase game...... yet anyway.

 

[kanadalainen]

It'd be fun to stage a race between Wheeler and Laine. My money would be plonked on the big Finn.

 

[LowLefty]

He's far from fast -
If we really must compare him to Wheeler, I'd do it from a dead stop and see who's ahead after 25 ft.
It won't be Laine.
His skating is not great - he lacks the most important skills when it comes to skating - quickness and agility.
He avoids stop and go situations or he'll get left behind.

Those 2 are what give you an edge in a very quick game.
Over all speed is rarely used - players do not get the opportunity to wind out during play.

There are areas of his game that are good (or very good) - skating isn't one of them.
Hopefully this is an area he will be focusing on in the off season.

I don't enjoy calling Laine out on his game (weaknesses) but when the dialogue shifts to "how fast he is" compared to others that are much quicker and more agile, it's hard to stay out of it.

 

[Eyeseeing]

I understand the questions about what to pay him. I just don’t understand the unfounded jumping to conclusions and derision thrown his way.

Actually if you look at the overall content of HF Jets I think we hate everyone on the roster
Laine must be signed long term.
He just turned 21 for crying out loud.

 

[kanadalainen]

He's far from fast -
If we really must compare him to Wheeler, I'd do it from a dead stop and see who's ahead after 25 ft.
It won't be Laine.
His skating is not great - he lacks the most important skills when it comes to skating - quickness and agility.
He avoids stop and go situations or he'll get left behind.

Those 2 are what give you an edge in a very quick game.
Over all speed is rarely used - players do not get the opportunity to wind out during play.

I don't enjoy calling Laine out on his game (weaknesses) but when the dialogue shifts to "how fast he is" compared to others that are much quicker and more agile, it's hard to stay out of it.

Fair enough -> but speed is what it is, and sure, I grant you that "wound out" is different from start/stop.

The NHL uses "wound out" speed as a measure in its annual all star fun meet, so let's have at it. This kind of speed test involves common items such as a start and turns, and time to wind out. Seems appropriate to me.

Here is some data.

Bridgestone NHL Fastest Skater
2017
Atlantic Division vs. Metropolitan Division
Kucherov (13.160) vs. Atkinson (13.330) - Atlantic wins 1 point
Trocheck (13.320) vs. Simmonds (13.650) - Atlantic wins 1 point
Central Division vs. Pacific Division
Laine (13.420) vs. Horvat (13.430) - Central wins 1 point
MacKinnon (13.620) vs. McDavid (13.020) - Pacific wins 1 point

In this particular competition, Laine is faster than MacKinnon, Horvat and Simmonds, and really close to the marks set by Atkinson and Trochek. McDavid and Kucherov are in another echelon.

Not bad I say.

 

[Howard Chuck]

He's far from fast -
If we really must compare him to Wheeler, I'd do it from a dead stop and see who's ahead after 25 ft.
It won't be Laine.
His skating is not great - he lacks the most important skills when it comes to skating - quickness and agility.
He avoids stop and go situations or he'll get left behind.

Those 2 are what give you an edge in a very quick game.
Over all speed is rarely used - players do not get the opportunity to wind out during play.

There are areas of his game that are good (or very good) - skating isn't one of them.
Hopefully this is an area he will be focusing on in the off season.

I don't enjoy calling Laine out on his game (weaknesses) but when the dialogue shifts to "how fast he is" compared to others that are much quicker and more agile, it's hard to stay out of it.

I was just pointing out that on the rush he is as fast and effective as anyone else. I've said that his agility is still lacking.

And I think that from a dead stop and at 25 feet, it's not a slam dunk that wheeler wins judging by what I see in replays etc. At the very least it's a crapshoot. I'm trying to be diplomatic, I actually think Laine would win.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

So...Patrik is not slow, but fast, but a bad skater. Got it!

I think that almost every poster who has praised Laine’s speed has also mentioned that he needs to develop other areas in his skating. Ever since the priceless Laine’s summer training thread from last summer people have discussed his explosiveness and need for agility training like Barkov had.

 

[DRW204]

delete

 

[LowLefty]

So...Patrik is not slow, but fast, but a bad skater. Got it!

I think that almost every poster who has praised Laine’s speed has also mentioned that he needs to develop other areas in his skating. Ever since the priceless Laine’s summer training thread from last summer people have discussed his explosiveness and need for agility training like Barkov had.

OK - how's this

Laine is fast - and one of the best skaters on the team - certainly faster than Wheels by the eye test of the Laine fan club.
Skating the oval is what's it's all about - and the best place to determine just how good or fast you are, is the skills competition.

 

[kanadalainen]

I was just pointing out that on the rush he is as fast and effective as anyone else. I've said that his agility is still lacking.

And I think that from a dead stop and at 25 feet, it's not a slam dunk that wheeler wins judging by what I see in replays etc. At the very least it's a crapshoot. I'm trying to be diplomatic, I actually think Laine would win.

Nailed it!

 

[Howard Chuck]

OK - how's this

Laine is fast - and one of the best skaters on the team - certainly faster than Wheels by the eye test of the Laine fan club.
Skating the oval is what's it's all about - and the best place to determine just how good or fast you are, is the skills competition.

Sarcasm aside, I think he may be faster than Wheeler in game play, leaving our end on the rush. All you have to do is look at video of 29, 55, 26 breaking out of our zone. Wheeler looks fast, but Laine gets to the opposing blue line coasting at the same time.

It was the same argument with Antropov that we went through. He was tall with a long gait that looked slow, but he wasn't slow.

 

[PhilJets]

Wonder how many hot takes here - once Laine signs for 8+ mil , highest paid Jet player ever.

The only player who have done better than him Jets 1.0 and 2.0 was Dale Hawerchuk at that age bracket.
And he was pretty baaaaaaad defensively.

That playoff Laine was crazy good. All impact player.

Its too bad he wasnt use more. And he got that groin injury. Game 5.

 

[LowLefty]

Wonder how many hot takes here - once Laine signs for 8+ mil , highest paid Jet player ever.

The only player who have done better than him Jets 1.0 and 2.0 was Dale Hawerchuk at that age bracket.
And he was pretty baaaaaaad defensively.

That playoff Laine was crazy good. All impact player.

Its too bad he wasnt use more. And he got that groin injury. Game 5.

Hot takes? Not all opinions of Laine will line up with yours - and I'll assume there will be continued "hot Takes" regardless of his salary.
Why not just accept that there will be differing opinions on Laine's strengths and weaknesses?

 

[Farmboy Patty]

OK - how's this

Laine is fast - and one of the best skaters on the team - certainly faster than Wheels by the eye test of the Laine fan club.
Skating the oval is what's it's all about - and the best place to determine just how good or fast you are, is the skills competition.

Nope, still not good enough. You are being sarcastic and feel the need to downplay Laine’s good top end speed by saying that he is a bad skater because of his bad agility and explosiveness. I pointed out that those areas of improvement have been mentioned countless times by the same people who gives praise for his top end speed. I don’t think that anybody has claimed skating the oval is what it’s all about. However, the skills competition does tell us that Laine is in fact a good skater. Maybe not elite, but definitely not bad.