Player Discussion: Patrik Laine (mod warning in post #150)

[Ippenator]

So, to summarize, is it your view that training on ice to improve your skating is not helpful, or that you don't know if it is helpful but because Rautala doesn't include it in his program it must not be helpful, or that Laine is already at the peak of technique so training won't improve his skating?

He is good with his technique already. Most probably not at his peak with it, but not probably very far from it either. Anyway, as I have stated already numerous times. His clear weakness is lack of explosiveness in legs and lack of stamina. His skating technique is by no means his weakness, and this is why they can’t get his skating to improve as much with technical training, as through concentrating in developing his leg explosiveness at the age when he can still get optimal development from it. Using time at the moment for some skating technique training would not give even close to as good results as getting better stamina and more explosive leg muscles. This is why they have chosen the training plan that they have for him, and this is why I trust their planning.

 

[StiffSquid]

Interesting thread lol.

 

[Tommigun]

He is good with his technique already. Most probably not at his peak with it, but not probably very far from it either. Anyway, as I have stated already numerous times. His clear weakness is lack of explosiveness in legs and lack of stamina. His skating technique is by no means his weakness, and this is why they can’t get his skating to improve as much with technical training, as through concentrating in developing his leg explosiveness at the age when he can still get optimal development from it. Using time at the moment for some skating technique training would not give even close to as good results as getting better stamina and more explosive leg muscles. This is why they have chosen the training plan that they have for him, and this is why I trust their planning.

If Laine is so close to his peak skating technique wise, then how come people have taken strides after hiring a skating coach? Or are you saying Laine is such an exceptional skater already that he’s got all of those other people beat in this department, and there wouldn’t be much to gain because he’s so close to his peak?

Let’s drop this charade already, it’s getting tiresome. The guy needs to work on his weaknesses (hint: he’s not close to his peak skating wise, be it technique or whatever), which means he has to skate. Rautala is just a charlatan who enjoys the respect of the Finnish media, probably because they don’t know any better either.

 

[Keduzin]

You can bet your ass he will come back to training camp tired and will not be in full shape before a month or two into the season !
And both Laine, Maurice etc know that allready, it is an investment and a small price to pay for him being a better player later on in the season when the games really matter and in the future.

Laine is 20, he can’t be a Wheeler or Buff and spend the summer drinking beer, fishing and relaxing and then come back well rested.
Laine , albeit being great allready, has really big steps a head of him before he is ready to be the dominator in the game he will. And those steps require strength.
Wait another season or two and please come back then an tell me his skating is bad, before that you can shove your skating ideas....

Barkov was considered a very weak skater when he came to the NHL ( at the same age as Laine did). Barkov has now played 5 seasons, FIVE!, and his skating has started improving more and more the last 2 years.
Remember Laine is only 20, does everything just to become the best player in the game.he is working really hard to achieve that and he knows it comes with the cost of being tired and heavy in the beginning of the season.

You should have the sence to understand that this is the way both Winnipeg as an organisation and Laine as a player believes is THE BEST... for LAINE !
As I said Laine is the centerpiece of the Jets the next 5-10 years and everything is done to make him the best.

I don’t have anything against any NA or European practice methods but saying that Rautalas program for Laine is not the right one is just plain stupidity !

 

[Keduzin]

If Laine is so close to his peak skating technique wise, then how come people have taken strides after hiring a skating coach? Or are you saying Laine is such an exceptional skater already that he’s got all of those other people beat in this department, and there wouldn’t be much to gain because he’s so close to his peak?

Let’s drop this charade already, it’s getting tiresome. The guy needs to work on his weaknesses (hint: he’s not close to his peak skating wise, be it technique or whatever), which means he has to skate. Rautala is just a charlatan who enjoys the respect of the Finnish media, probably because they don’t know any better either.

None of the Finnish players have hired a skating coach at the age of Laine, and he will not do that either before he has built up that body and those skinny legs.

One more time... the main thing is to build up that big frame and strength first, it will take most likely 1 or two more years.
After that is done and he won’t grow anymore it is time for the fine tuningg, such as what Granlund and Barkov did. Even if Laine waits another year or two he will still be younger than what Barkov and Granlund was when they hired their figureskating coach.

 

[Whileee]

You can bet your ass he will come back to training camp tired and will not be in full shape before a month or two into the season !
And both Laine, Maurice etc know that allready, it is an investment and a small price to pay for him being a better player later on in the season when the games really matter and in the future.

Laine is 20, he can’t be a Wheeler or Buff and spend the summer drinking beer, fishing and relaxing and then come back well rested.
Laine , albeit being great allready, has really big steps a head of him before he is ready to be the dominator in the game he will. And those steps require strength.
Wait another season or two and please come back then an tell me his skating is bad, before that you can shove your skating ideas....

Barkov was considered a very weak skater when he came to the NHL ( at the same age as Laine did). Barkov has now played 5 seasons, FIVE!, and his skating has started improving more and more the last 2 years.
Remember Laine is only 20, does everything just to become the best player in the game.he is working really hard to achieve that and he knows it comes with the cost of being tired and heavy in the beginning of the season.

You should have the sence to understand that this is the way both Winnipeg as an organisation and Laine as a player believes is THE BEST... for LAINE !
As I said Laine is the centerpiece of the Jets the next 5-10 years and everything is done to make him the best.

I don’t have anything against any NA or European practice methods but saying that Rautalas program for Laine is not the right one is just plain stupidity !

Okay, this post shows you don't know what you're talking about. Wheeler's offseason workouts would put Laine's to shame. Same with Scheifele and most of the top players. They work on strength and stamina and skating and skills. They come to came in top condition and explode out of the gate. I don't expect Laine to have that conditioning yet, but to pretend that the vets on the Jets don't train hard in the offseason is ludicrous.

 

[Keduzin]

Okay, this post shows you don't know what you're talking about. Wheeler's offseason workouts would put Laine's to shame. Same with Scheifele and most of the top players. They work on strength and stamina and skating and skills. They come to came in top condition and explode out of the gate. I don't expect Laine to have that conditioning yet, but to pretend that the vets on the Jets don't train hard in the offseason is ludicrous.

I admit I threw those names from the hat , I meant veteranplayers in general.
I know there is a huge difference in how Finnish players spend their vacation depending on their age and what phase in their career they are going through.
Vatanen, Filppula, Koivu, Komarov, Jokinen, Lehterä erc are not currently sweating their ass off with some trainer, you can take that to the bank.

Wheeler and Scheifele are allready pretty much physically complete, it is a whole different story with Laine.
And I’m quite sure Laine won’t be needing Rautalas program this much in 2-3 years from now, if at all

 

[Whileee]

None of the Finnish players have hired a skating coach at the age of Laine, and he will not do that either before he has built up that body and those skinny legs.

One more time... the main thing is to build up that big frame and strength first, it will take most likely 1 or two more years.
After that is done and he won’t grow anymore it is time for the fine tuningg, such as what Granlund and Barkov did. Even if Laine waits another year or two he will still be younger than what Barkov and Granlund was when they hired their figureskating coach.

Rantanen was already doing on-ice skating in the summer early on. It didn't seem to harm his strength, stamina and skating. There is so much inconsistency in these arguments that Laine couldn't improve his training regimen.

Also, the Jets can recommend a training regimen but can't enforce it. That's why Ehlers and Morrissey did too much strength training and improved bulk, which slowed their progress. Both changed and slimmed down and had dynamite years.

It seems hard for you and some others to admit that maybe a trainer in Finland who hasn't changed his training methods much for 30-40 years might not know everything about optimal training for a young hockey player.

 

[Whileee]

I admit I threw those names from the hat , I meant veteranplayers in general.
I know there is a huge difference in how Finnish players spend their vacation depending on their age and what phase in their career they are going through.
Vatanen, Filppula, Koivu, Komarov, Jokinen, Lehterä erc are not currently sweating their ass off with some trainer, you can take that to the bank.

Wheeler and Scheifele are allready pretty much physically complete, it is a whole different story with Laine.
And I’m quite sure Laine won’t be needing Rautalas program this much in 2-3 years from now, if at all

I went to watch the Jets training camp the last couple of years, and watched the on ice fitness tests. It was very easy to see that Laine was closer to the bottom than the top compared to most of the vets and young players. Some of that is his big size, but I was disappointed that he seemed more sluggish last year than the year before, and he definitely looked heavier, and not just with muscles.

I've seen lots of other young players that didn't have this sluggish period in their development.

I think it's good that Laine is working out seriously, but if he comes back to camp again sluggish and not in better condition than before, I think that serious questions will need to be asked as to whether he should rethink his offseason training.

 

[Keduzin]

Rantanen was already doing on-ice skating in the summer early on. It didn't seem to harm his strength, stamina and skating. There is so much inconsistency in these arguments that Laine couldn't improve his training regimen.

Also, the Jets can recommend a training regimen but can't enforce it. That's why Ehlers and Morrissey did too much strength training and improved bulk, which slowed their progress. Both changed and slimmed down and had dynamite years.

It seems hard for you and some others to admit that maybe a trainer in Finland who hasn't changed his training methods much for 30-40 years might not know everything about optimal training for a young hockey player.

Rantanen is 2 years older than Laine and has build up his body far more than Pateik. As I told you I am sure Laine will also add the skating element into his training program in 1 or 2 years. Right now that is not what he should focus on and everybody knows that.
I know his skating ain’t even close to what it should or will be but there is no shortcut to he taken. The guy is gaining 5-10lbs every year the next couple of years and it would be idiotic to take the chance of injuries if the lowerbody is not steong enough to support that growth. The skating will come, but it must be build by strength first and after that he can start to finetune it.

Ehler is a dwarf and will jever be the powerhouse that Laine will be, Ehlers main strength is his speed and without that he would play in the danish league. Of course he needs to keep that up

 

[BB88]

None of the Finnish players have hired a skating coach at the age of Laine, and he will not do that either before he has built up that body and those skinny legs.

One more time... the main thing is to build up that big frame and strength first, it will take most likely 1 or two more years.
After that is done and he won’t grow anymore it is time for the fine tuningg, such as what Granlund and Barkov did. Even if Laine waits another year or two he will still be younger than what Barkov and Granlund was when they hired their figureskating coach.

Barkov& Granlund don't train under Rautala.

I'll say it again, skating in the offseasons have zero negative impacts on his game, at worst he's in shape to start the season, or for better a better skater.

I must be watching a different player vs some others who consider Laine to be close to perfection in techique.

 

[Keduzin]

I went to watch the Jets training camp the last couple of years, and watched the on ice fitness tests. It was very easy to see that Laine was closer to the bottom than the top compared to most of the vets and young players. Some of that is his big size, but I was disappointed that he seemed more sluggish last year than the year before, and he definitely looked heavier, and not just with muscles.

I've seen lots of other young players that didn't have this sluggish period in their development.

I think it's good that Laine is working out seriously, but if he comes back to camp again sluggish and not in better condition than before, I think that serious questions will need to be asked as to whether he should rethink his offseason training.

He will come back and look sluggish, again. But look at how he looks in the latter half of the season and in the playoffs instead. Those are the games that matter, Pate doesn’t need to be 100% in October

 

[Whileee]

Rantanen is 2 years older than Laine and has build up his body far more than Pateik. As I told you I am sure Laine will also add the skating element into his training program in 1 or 2 years. Right now that is not what he should focus on and everybody knows that.
I know his skating ain’t even close to what it should or will be but there is no shortcut to he taken. The guy is gaining 5-10lbs every year the next couple of years and it would be idiotic to take the chance of injuries if the lowerbody is not steong enough to support that growth. The skating will come, but it must be build by strength first and after that he can start to finetune it.

Ehler is a dwarf and will jever be the powerhouse that Laine will be, Ehlers main strength is his speed and without that he would play in the danish league. Of course he needs to keep that up

Rantanen was interviewed a year or two ago and talked about on ice training in addition to badminton and tennis. So, he was already doing on ice skills training in addition to Rautala's regimen as a teenager.

 

[BB88]

He will come back and look sluggish, again. But look at how he looks in the latter half of the season and in the playoffs instead. Those are the games that matter, Pate doesn’t need to be 100% in October

That's garbage way of thinking, you can't have your 19-20y superstar be out of shape for half the season.
It's not a good look. All the others come in shape but Laine sayd hey guy I'll just take it easy for the 1st half, you do the job.

Laine looked better on the 2nd half, but that didn't need much considering how he looked at the start of season. He neither was amazing in the playoffs.

 

[Keduzin]

Barkov& Granlund don't train under Rautala. You need to study what Rantanen/Ristolainen do.

I'll say it again, skating in the offseasons have zero negative impacts on his game, at worst he's in shape to start the season, or for better a better skater.

I must be watching a different player vs some others who consider Laine to be close to perfection in techique.

I’m well aware of that Barkov and MiG don’t train with Rautala and that is perfectly fine.
The point was that both Barkov and MiG started hiring a figureskating coach once they had developed their physical frame. Laine is not there yet.

It may sound to you like adding a bit of skating does not take anything away from his progress but it will. He is training extremely hard and trying to get those reslults as soon as possible and everything else he focuses on , practice wise, is slowing that progress. He could go and skate once a week but that would not have any positive impact on what he is working on now and he wouldn’t be any fresher in the training camp either.

 

[Whileee]

He will come back and look sluggish, again. But look at how he looks in the latter half of the season and in the playoffs instead. Those are the games that matter, Pate doesn’t need to be 100% in October

He shouldn't take half a season to get up to speed, and to be honest, I don't think he ever really got to the same level of fitness as he needs. He better be ready to go earlier, and still sustain his stamina through the season soon, or he needs to change his trainer.

Also, if Rantanen could add on ice skills work to Rautala's regimen as a teenager, I'm sure Laine can, too.

 

[BB88]

I’m well aware of that Barkov and MiG don’t train with Rautala and that is perfectly fine.
The point was that both Barkov and MiG started hiring a figureskating coach once they had developed their physical frame. Laine is not there yet.

It may sound to you like adding a bit of skating does not take anything away from his progress but it will. He is training extremely hard and trying to get those reslults as soon as possible and everything else he focuses on , practice wise, is slowing that progress. He could go and skate once a week but that would not have any positive impact on what he is working on now and he wouldn’t be any fresher in the training camp either.

And again, he should have the time for all of tennis/badminton/floorball, but dear .... if someone asks him to skate instead, all the work will go down the toilet.

Barkovs offseasons were also heavily affected by injuries and he skated in the summers in the past as well, he just hired a figure skater last summer to teach him.

Is Laine really in that bad of a shape that the other pro's can skate in the summer and Laine can't? Not a good look again.

 

[Whileee]

I’m well aware of that Barkov and MiG don’t train with Rautala and that is perfectly fine.
The point was that both Barkov and MiG started hiring a figureskating coach once they had developed their physical frame. Laine is not there yet.

It may sound to you like adding a bit of skating does not take anything away from his progress but it will. He is training extremely hard and trying to get those reslults as soon as possible and everything else he focuses on , practice wise, is slowing that progress. He could go and skate once a week but that would not have any positive impact on what he is working on now and he wouldn’t be any fresher in the training camp either.

You have absolutely no evidence to support your statements.

Rantanen did on ice training as a teen and he was in better shape than Laine at a similar age.

It will be hilarious if Laine decides to do some on ice training with Rantanen this summer, making pages and pages of your posts here meaningless.

 

[Whileee]

And again, he should have the time for all of tennis/badminton/floorball, but dear .... if someone asks him to skate instead, all the work will go down the toilet.

Barkovs offseasons were also heavily affected by injuries and he skated in the summers in the past as well, he just hired a figure skater last summer to teach him.

Rantanen also skates, in addition to badminton training.

 

[Keduzin]

I’m pretty much done here, had enough of trying to talk to brickwalls the last 24 hours.

1.Laine will be a better skater in january 2019 than he was in 2018

2.Laine will he a better player in 2019 than he was in 2018 or 2017

3. Laine will not be in top shape when the season starts

4. Laine will continue with Rautala in the summer of 2019

5. Laine will be a better player in 2020 than he was before

If any of those arguments won’t become reality I promise I won’t write to the Winnipeg section anymore ever AND I will admit that BB88 and Whilee know more about Patrik Laine and how he should train than me

 

[BB88]

Rantanen also skates, in addition to badminton training.

But he's no Laine

Seriously, how can skating be a negative, it's just something else.

 

[Whileee]

From Rantanen last summer...

ML: Rantanen has been on the ice during the summer with other Finnish NHL players being coached by Jukka Koivu's.
Rantanen: “They've been good workouts, lots of plays when there's less people on the ice.”

 

[Ippenator]

Rantanen also skates, in addition to badminton training.

No he doesn’t when he is in the Rautala group. He starts skating after the group is done for him at the end of the summer. And might be that he has been on the ice just for fun a bit before the Rautala group started training, but he doesn't do then anything with skating instructors etc., and as I said already before, after Rautala’s program is finished for the summer he has at least last year joined an on ice practice group coached by Jukka Koivu (Saku’s and Mikko’s father) for a couple of weeks but not really long anyway. Laine went in fact also just very late in the off season on the ice for some times also but nothing intensive.

 

[Whileee]

I’m pretty much done here, had enough of trying to talk to brickwalls the last 24 hours.

1.Laine will be a better skater in january 2019 than he was in 2018

2.Laine will he a better player in 2019 than he was in 2018 or 2017

3. Laine will not be in top shape when the season starts

4. Laine will continue with Rautala in the summer of 2019

5. Laine will be a better player in 2020 than he was before

If any of those arguments won’t become reality I promise I won’t write to the Winnipeg section anymore ever AND I will admit that BB88 and Whilee know more about Patrik Laine and how he should train than me

I think you are the brick wall, to be honest.

I'm fine with what he's doing with Rautala, but think there are other ways to improve. Rantanen augments Rautala's regimen. You just refuse to consider that anything else has merit.

 

[Ippenator]

From Rantanen last summer...

ML: Rantanen has been on the ice during the summer with other Finnish NHL players being coached by Jukka Koivu's.
Rantanen: “They've been good workouts, lots of plays when there's less people on the ice.”

Yes and that was after the Rautala group was finished for Rantanen.