Player Discussion: Patrik Laine (mod warning in post #150)

[Ippenator]

Sigh. I’m not going to explain you everything all over again. Please don’t reply to my posts ok this subject and I won’t to yours. We just clearly disagree, so no use to continue it with you.

Did he or did he not call himself out on his shape at the start of season, did it or did it not take months for him to feel lighter on his feet?

You've completely failed to explain with all of your posts how adding skating to his off ice training is pointless, as you said it to be.
If you want to be an elite skater, you better skate as well. I guess you'd advice Laine to beat Bolt without practising running, "just hit the weights boy".

Laine has trouble with winning puck races, creating space& being out of shape as you say.
These are due to skating, and not those linemates excuses.

Laine isn't the weakest guy in the league, he shouldn't just focus on off ice training.

And btw, a completely idiotic example with Laine and Bolt, as Laine would not he able to beat Bolt with any kind of training, or even get by any means close to him in sprint running. You know why? Because Bolt was naturally born with more fast twitch muscle fibers than most people in the world and on the other hand Laine was born with unfortunately a lot smaller amount of the fast twitch muscle fibers. And the same thing makes Laine always a weaker skater than McDavid or Ehlers. He can match their top speed because in skating you can get great top speeds even with not so much of the fast twitch muscle fibers, but you can’t get any good acceleration without a lot of them.

Exactly because of the lack of the good first steps and stamina he can’t get so well to loose pucks. He just can’t accelerate quickly enough often to them. The same applies exactly to creating space. Damn, but these things should absolutely be obvious. It really feels stupid to have to explain things like this here.

 

[BB88]

And btw, a completely idiotic example with Laine and Bolt, as Laine would not he able to beat Bolt with any kind of training, or even get by any means close to him in sprint running. You know why? Because Bolt was naturally born with more fast twitch muscle fibers than most people in the world and on the other hand Laine was born with unfortunately a lot smaller amount of the fast twitch muscle fibers. And the same thing makes Laine always a weaker skater than McDavid or Ehlers. He can match their top speed because in skating you can get great top speeds even with not so much of the fast twitch muscle fibers, but you can’t get any good acceleration without a lot of them.

I was commenting you as a trainer, no matter the sport you'd say Laine just needs to hit the weights.

This once more, just proves absolutely nothing on why Laine shouldn't add skating into his training methods.
I'm amazed how someone can be so against skating, we are talking about a hockey player after all, who's biggest weakness is skating.

He shouldn't skate because he wasn't as gifted as McDavid?

 

[Ippenator]

This once more, just proves absolutely nothing on why Laine shouldn't add skating into his training methods.
I'm amazed how someone can be so against skating, we are talking about a hockey player after all, who's biggest weakness is skating.

He shouldn't skate because he wasn't as gifted as McDavid?

For the last time: His skating is fine from the technical side. He just lacks the good first steps and good enough stamina compared to his size so far. These things make him look like a much worse skater than he really is, and you are one of the many whom get completely fooled by this simple illusion created with his size and a bit below average first steps. And then you panic because of how that illusion looks to you and forget what kind of results Laine was able to get even with the slight issue that he has with his first steps and the a bit bigger issue with his lack of stamina. Just relax and watch hockey.

 

[BB88]

For the last time: His skating is fine from the technical side. He just lacks the good first steps and good enough stamina compared to his size so far. These things make him look like a much worse skater than he really is, and you are one of the many whom get completely fooled by this simple illusion created with his size and a bit below average first steps. And then you panic because of how that illusion looks to you and forget what kind of results Laine was able to get even with the slight issue that he has with his first steps and the a bit bigger issue with his lack of stamina. Just relax and watch hockey.

The thing is, again, once more Laine struggled with puck races, creating space, and doesn't have the best stamina. Laine wasn't anything special 5on5 at the start of season especially, and good amount of it is due for his skating/bad shape.

Laines skating techinques have lot of room to improve, they can be "nice" but he's not some elite techique skater, it could do wonders for his quick turns/starts, it would help with his stamina as he would develop as a skater and save energy with his skating.

I'm speechless how you can think skating is pointless, please go and tell all those NA players/NHL teams that, and take it on video.

 

[Ippenator]

The thing is, again, once more Laine struggled with puck races, creating space, and doesn't have the best stamina. Laine wasn't anything special 5on5 at the start of season especially, and good amount of it is due for his skating/bad shape.

Laines skating techinques have lot of room to improve, they can be "nice" but he's not some elite techique skater, it could do wonders for his quick turns/starts, it would help with his stamina as he would develop as a skater and save energy with his skating.

I'm speechless how you can think skating is pointless, please go and tell all those NA players/NHL teams that, and take it on video.

I never said skating technique exercises are pointless to everyone. Just to Laine in his present state of the development. Because he has weak first steps and weak stamina, but he has good technique and in fact excellent turns especially at full speed. I never also said that he couldn’t get some benefit from training still with some figure skating instructor at some point, but I have just said that most probably he will not be doing anything like that before he is done enough with developing his first steps and stamina. It’s not useful to do the hardest leg training and then fine tuning kind of technical training at the same time. Olympic speedskaters don't do that way, so why would Laine need to do that way either, if he and his trainer want to first make sure that they use the training time in a more efficient way for making the legs more explosive and his stamina better.

But this is just going around in circles. I feel like you are not really reading what I post but still want to answer to them. And then your answers are twisting completely what I have in reality posted here before.

 

[Aggie204]

what I’ve noticed from watching a lot of the finnish sniper is he gets caught flat footed when he receives a pass. He is stripped of the puck many times, because he is standing around the defensive blue line trying to exit the zone. I wish I had some metric to prove it.

The skating debate around here is tiresome. Yes he needs a better first step and agility. But I would rather see him improve his defensive zone exits and overall defensive play.

 

[ijuka]

Stop and go play is exactly all about stamina and the explosive leg strength. Players whom are not good at those are always in trouble with stop and go play. That’s exactly why Granlund and Barkov had also so much difficulties with the stop and go play for their first years in the NHL.

Agility plays a significant part. And skillful braking, which has nothing to do with explosiveness.

He might often take a very large turn when it'd be much better to take a far sharper, smaller turn and that also isn't about explosiveness. That's why I think that there's plenty to work on there.

 

[Ippenator]

Agility plays a significant part. And skillful braking, which has nothing to do with explosiveness.

He might often take a very large turn when it'd be much better to take a far sharper, smaller turn and that also isn't about explosiveness. That's why I think that there's plenty to work on there.

Don’t you realize that he in fact still had to avoid doing full stops too much because of the stamina and first step related issues, because if he would have been doing just constantly the stop and go play, he would have not been able to make it even as well as last season with the weak stamina he has had.

Maurice was even at some point talking with Laine about how he should keep himself moving. It was not just about moving his legs more but also about being more economical about his skating with avoiding doing at least too much of full stops, because they unfortunately make him so far quite unefficient in most situations. And him trying to avoid having to do too often the full stop and go plays leads exactly into him making quite large turns, as he is trying often to keep his speed at a level where he wouldn’t need to accelerate so often. It might not be a skating style that exactly would develop too well his acceleration and stamina during the active season, but so far it has helped him at least skate a bit more economically and for him to be better available for plays at full speed. The off season is also because of this especially important to be used efficiently to develop his first steps and explosiveness, as it will not happen too well during the active season.

 

[Lowered Expectations]

Ok let’s sum up what we have learned here about Laine.
Cons:
He can’t skate
He is bad at zone exits
He is weak at corners/puck battles
He is fat one trick pony
He is bad at cycle game
He don’t forecheck/backcheck
I’m sure I missed something, please add.

Pros:
80 goals in his first two NHL seasons not including playoffs
Wants to play in Winnipeg
Seems down to earth and funny guy


Trade the bum already

 

[PhilJets]

Do we start worrying about his potential if he isnt ppg+ player next season?

If you keep playing him 2nd and 3rd line with 13 to 16 mins per game.


That is tough to get a point a game in 82 game season. But if there is a player capable he is one of them though.

Yes i know he gets 1st power play time minutes.

 

[Halberdier]

Somehow I think those arguments and counter arguments about his skating during summer training have been heard like forever now, and everything worth of saying (and more) has been said dozens of times, and 99% is based on pure speculation without knowing much about his actual training. I suggest that if you don't have anything new to bring on the table (and you don't have, sorry), could you pretty please just stop already and start posting cat pics or other more relevant to the subject?

 

[GaryinPrague]

i would like to correct some people here. You cant increase the amount of fast twitch or slow twitch muscle fibres, your DNA is programmed from birth (there are execptional cases, but doesnt aply to hockey players). You can increase the size of what you have but not make more. LIke for instance in 100m Sprints, what determines the best is alot of fast twitch muscle in the legs, long limbs, narrow hips for rotaional leverage, and correct training to maximize what your born with.

 

[Ippenator]

i would like to correct some people here. You cant increase the amount of fast twitch or slow twitch muscle fibres, your DNA is programmed from birth (there are execptional cases, but doesnt aply to hockey players). You can increase the size of what you have but not make more. LIke for instance in 100m Sprints, what determines the best is alot of fast twitch muscle in the legs, long limbs, narrow hips for rotaional leverage, and correct training to maximize what your born with.

Yes, this is technically correct. Although it is still possible to develop and strengthen the fast twitch muscle fibers considerably in general with the right kind of training.

But yeah, some people are just lucky and born with a great amount of fast twitch muscle fibers. McDavid and Ehlers are great examples of these kind of people. Laine unfortunately is not one of those kind of people. So his road to getting clearly better explosive strength to his legs is unfortunately a long, hard and rocky road. Which is exactly what I have tried to so much explain here.

 

[Keduzin]

Ok let’s sum up what we have learned here about Laine.
Cons:
He can’t skate
He is bad at zone exits
He is weak at corners/puck battles
He is fat one trick pony
He is bad at cycle game
He don’t forecheck/backcheck
I’m sure I missed something, please add.

Pros:
80 goals in his first two NHL seasons not including playoffs
Wants to play in Winnipeg
Seems down to earth and funny guy


Trade the bum already

You forgot to add to the cons that he will be by far the most expensive player on the team once he signs

Actually all this crap people post here about Laine almost makes me wish he would leave the city. I know that won’t happen though. Laine for Winnipeg is like Ovechkin for Washington. The star and the centerpiece that the whole teams next 5-10 year future is built around.
Nobody else on the team comes even close to popularity and Laine brings so much good both off and on the ice. The kind of goodwill he brings to the city and the team is something you can’t learn and money can’t buy
Like Maurice and the other players has said many times, whenever Laine gets the puck the atmosphere on thebench and the audience changes immediately.

Laine said yesterday that he is quite comfortable with his upperbody curre tly and the main focus is on the lowerbody and to get that stronger and more explosive.

I can only laugh when I read how people here think he should skate more during the offseason..... HAHAHA! Don’t you think both the Winnipeg coaches, Rautala and Laine have together planned and gone through the best way for Laine to practice and prepare for the next season ?

As for how Barkov parcticed last summer and spent time on the ice it was not about making him a faster or better skater. It was all about making his skating more economic and ergonomic . He has been having problems with his back more or less the last 5 years and with the minutes he plays it was absolutely a wise choise.

 

[Ippenator]

You forgot to add to the cons that he will be by far the most expensive player on the team once he signs

Actually all this crap people post here about Laine almost makes me wish he would leave the city. I know that won’t happen though. Laine for Winnipeg is like Ovechkin for Washington. The star and the centerpiece that the whole teams next 5-10 year future is built around.
Nobody else on the team comes even close to popularity and Laine brings so much good both off and on the ice. The kind of goodwill he brings to the city and the team is something you can’t learn and money can’t buy
Like Maurice and the other players has said many times, whenever Laine gets the puck the atmosphere on thebench and the audience changes immediately.

Laine said yesterday that he is quite comfortable with his upperbody curre tly and the main focus is on the lowerbody and to get that stronger and more explosive.

I can only laugh when I read how people here think he should skate more during the offseason..... HAHAHA! Don’t you think both the Winnipeg coaches, Rautala and Laine have together planned and gone through the best way for Laine to practice and prepare for the next season ?

As for how Barkov parcticed last summer and spent time on the ice it was not about making him a faster or better skater. It was all about making his skating more economic . He has been having problems with his back more or less the last 5 years and with the minutes he plays it was absolutely a wise choise.

Finally a real smart post that tells exactly how things are with Laine. Thanks, you are bringing back my hope. Also you absolutely nailed it about how it was with Barkov’s training also.

 

[Keduzin]

The next issue these Laine critics most likely bring up is that the strategy and style of play while he is playing NHL on playstation don’t resemble the style of play Winnipeg plays

 

[Legend Leinonen]

I will tell a little bedtime story:

Once upon a time there was a wealthy guy whom bought his own jet. But unfortunately he got disappointed in his plane, as it’s afterburners we’re not very powerful so he couldn’t fly with his jet with much more speed than Mach 1.

The guy was also reading HFboards and found from there some talks about how you need to just get lessons of how to technically skate better to become a clearly quicker and faster skater. So he was right away enthusiasti blah blah

So you are still going on with this false narrative that people who disagree with your stance on not training skating technique are against Laine training with weights…

I really don't know what to say anymore, other than you are seriously suffering from severe tunnel vision.

 

[Ippenator]

So you are still going on with this false narrative that people who disagree with your stance on not training skating technique are against Laine training with weights…

I really don't know what to say anymore, other than you are seriously suffering from severe tunnel vision.

First of all, why do you keep up the mumbojumbo of Laine training just with weights? His training is versatile and the weight lifting is in fact about half of his efficient off season training - if even that much. And when he does weight lifting, the most of it is done with exercises for developing explosiveness to his legs.

And yes, skating training is not necessary during the off season for every hockey player. It depends on their training needs and the focus that is needed at that moment to achieve the results that help the most with the clearest weaknesses. It should tell a lot to you who so much want him to skate during the summer, that he just does not need it for his skating so much that they would want to use time unefficiently to a training that would then be away from how much effort they can put to the areas that are his true weaknesses. You have fallen as a victim of the illusion if you seriously see it so that Laine’s skating technique is any kind of problem for him.

The thing that the Jets coaches and management have approved Laine’s summer training should seriously tell you that he just does not have any real weakness in his actual skating technique, even if your eyes have fooled you to believe otherwise.

Thanks a lot, but the tunnel vision is sincerely 100% at your end over there. Your lack of understanding or accepting of the individual training needs for different players shows that clearly. But just go on if you enjoy being wrong, because that’s what you are with your last post for example.

 

[Legend Leinonen]

The next issue these Laine critics most likely bring up is that the strategy and style of play while he is playing NHL on playstation don’t resemble the style of play Winnipeg plays

You sound like the kind of guy who after sniffing Laine's jockstrap would burst into tears and say: "it smelled like roses in summer."

 

[Legend Leinonen]

As for how Barkov parcticed last summer and spent time on the ice it was not about making him a faster or better skater. It was all about making his skating more economic and ergonomic . He has been having problems with his back more or less the last 5 years and with the minutes he plays it was absolutely a wise choise.

This is one more great reason to add skating to Laine's summer training. Stamina was one of his biggest problems, so more economic skating is deffo free money in the bank!

 

[Ippenator]

You sound like the kind of guy who after sniffing Laine's jockstrap would burst into tears and say: "it smelled like roses in summer."

To me it’s really quite telling that someone has even thoughts of smelling some players jockstraps and thinks that posting those thoughts here is a good idea. But yeah, I guess each to their own...

 

[Tommigun]

For the last time: His skating is fine from the technical side. He just lacks the good first steps and good enough stamina compared to his size so far. These things make him look like a much worse skater than he really is, and you are one of the many whom get completely fooled by this simple illusion created with his size and a bit below average first steps. And then you panic because of how that illusion looks to you and forget what kind of results Laine was able to get even with the slight issue that he has with his first steps and the a bit bigger issue with his lack of stamina. Just relax and watch hockey.

And I disagree, as do pretty much all North Americans who do skate during summers. He’s got a strength trainer as coach and won’t develop his skating as long as he trains under that dude. He didn’t develop his skating last off-season, so there is no reason to expect he will during this off-season either. On the contrary he was so heavy after camp last year that it took over half the season to find his legs. His coach is not a hockey player coach but a pure gym rat trainer, and Laine won’t skate at all under him, and hence not develop either.
Are you really thinking that all NA players are training incorrectly, and this one strength trainer from Finland knows better?

 

[Keduzin]

You sound like the kind of guy who after sniffing Laine's jockstrap would burst into tears and say: "it smelled like roses in summer."

Really mature.... applause !

I am big fan of Laine and been following his progress since he was 16. During that period I have been forced to back up my excpectations of this very unique player, first before the liigapremier, then before the WJC, then before the liigaplayoffs, then before the IIHF world championships, then before the World Cup, then before Pate’s first NHL season and then before the last season. Everytime he has proven me right. And now it seems it that time of the year again.... trust me, Laine will be a better player this season than he has been before, including his skating aswell.
Most likely he will struggle the first month or two again but will light it up , as always, after that.

 

[Ippenator]

This is one more great reason to add skating to Laine's summer training. Stamina was one of his biggest problems, so more economic skating is deffo free money in the bank!

Not yet. Later probably he can get some help from it. But not much though, as he is already technically that good of a skater. Now his main focus should be in improving his first steps and his real body stamina. He will have time for polishing his skating later. Right now it would just take too much time away from him getting to do enough of the exercises that help him the most with his biggest weaknesses. Also, like some people have already pointed out here, Laine is still st the optimal age for gaining more of explosive power more efficiently than when he will be a bit older, so no use to waste that time right now for something that will not help so efficiently. He can still do the polishing later.

His skating skills are not that kind of a weakness for him. His lack of explosiveness and stamina are. And using the limited off season time at the moment in the best possible way efficiently is the key. The Jets management, Rautala and Laine all know definitely better than you for sure what are the most needed things for him and his development. Just take it or leave it.

 

[Ippenator]

And I disagree, as do pretty much all North Americans who do skate during summers. He’s got a strength trainer as coach and won’t develop his skating as long as he trains under that dude. He didn’t develop his skating last off-season, so there is no reason to expect he will during this off-season either. On the contrary he was so heavy after camp last year that it took over half the season to find his legs. His coach is not a hockey player coach but a pure gym rat trainer, and Laine won’t skate at all under him, and hence not develop either.
Are you really thinking that all NA players are training incorrectly, and this one strength trainer from Finland knows better?

Sorry but won’t bother answering to your posts anymore. I have debunked everything that you are claiming here. But as ignorance seems to be bliss for you and skating exercising some kind of a fetish, I don’t see any point in debating with you about this.