Player Discussion: Patrik Laine (mod warning in post #150)

[Gordian Knot]

Rautala has done wonders with Rantanen and Ristolainen for example. Patrik’s own development has taken huge steps forward and it is possible to see with eyeballs. In general way he has been improving but this summer they are focusing on weaknesses like explosive power on leg muscles . Like Rautala said summer 2016 that Patrik’s basic strength level was quite low so they needed two summers to work with those areas and there isn’t ways to short cut. You will see even better #29 when season 2018-2019 begins but if you are not happy just deal him for EDM scrubs.

Expecting solid 1st line winger performance from him 90 % of nights. It is up to Maurice to play him on that spot or then back to 2nd / 3rd line. First line duties may become expensive for Winnipeg as Laine will end up 50G 35 A. Second line time you can decrease 10 points and third line 15 points.

Same time I am so jealous for you guys but happy that Finnish youngster is so great at this game called hockey.

 

[Keduzin]

And I disagree, as do pretty much all North Americans who do skate during summers. He’s got a strength trainer as coach and won’t develop his skating as long as he trains under that dude. He didn’t develop his skating last off-season, so there is no reason to expect he will during this off-season either. On the contrary he was so heavy after camp last year that it took over half the season to find his legs. His coach is not a hockey player coach but a pure gym rat trainer, and Laine won’t skate at all under him, and hence not develop either.
Are you really thinking that all NA players are training incorrectly, and this one strength trainer from Finland knows better?

The development and training path for Laine has been set up a long time ago. Keep in mind that we are not talking about a midget here but a tall young guy who has the most catching up to do strengthwise. Last summer it was mostly about getting that upperbody stronger , and that he certainly did. Now it’s about the lowerbody and explosiveness, and that will for sure help his skating next season. In Laine’s case it is not about technique as much as it is about strength. He needs to get stronger in order to carry that body , that will get heavier every year until he is an adult.
I have NEVER seen anybody so determined as Laine is when it comes to practising and becoming the best in the game. Laine’s practice is the last thing Winnipeg fans should be concerned about.

 

[Tommigun]

Right now it would just take too much time away from him getting to do enough of the exercises that help him the most with his biggest weaknesses.

His trainer has allocated time for tennis, badminton and floor ball every week. Don’t you think any of those activities could be substituted for some on-ice training if time really is that much at a premium?

It’s almost as if his trainer vehemently hated ice because he fills their schedule with everything else than hockey related things. But then again his trainer is not a hockey player coach, so he will train his subjects skills that he knows. Hence why Lane should change coach pronto.

What is Rautala’s track record really? He seems to just make Laine worse. Look at last year.

 

[BB88]

So you are still going on with this false narrative that people who disagree with your stance on not training skating technique are against Laine training with weights…

I really don't know what to say anymore, other than you are seriously suffering from severe tunnel vision.

Yeah that's the issue.

No one is saying Laine to stop the off ice workouts, but to add skating into the mix to make it more versatile.
That somehow gets turned into Laine should just 100% skate, I fail to see how not skating in the offseasons absolutely maximises Laines development.

I love the guy and I want him to reach his ceiling, and the biggest issue right now is the skating, by far.

His trainer has allocated time for tennis, badminton and floor ball every week. Don’t you think any of those activities could be substituted for some on-ice training if time really is that much at a premium?

It’s almost as if his trainer vehemently hated ice because he fills their schedule with everything else than hockey related things. But then again his trainer is not a hockey player coach, so he will train his subjects skills that he knows. Hence why Lane should change coach pronto.

What is Rautala’s track record really? He seems to just make Laine worse. Look at last year.

Those sports are also extremely injury risky sports.

The development and training path for Laine has been set up a long time ago. Keep in mind that we are not talking about a midget here but a tall young guy who has the most catching up to do strengthwise. Last summer it was mostly about getting that upperbody stronger , and that he certainly did. Now it’s about the lowerbody and explosiveness, and that will for sure help his skating next season. In Laine’s case it is not about technique as much as it is about strength. He needs to get stronger in order to carry that body , that will get heavier every year until he is an adult.
I have NEVER seen anybody so determined as Laine is when it comes to practising and becoming the best in the game. Laine’s practice is the last thing Winnipeg fans should be concerned about.

It's a concern when the other guys in his group with the same skating issue aren't skating(as far as I know) in the offseasons, and they are ahead of Laine in physical development.

Rautala has done wonders with Rantanen and Ristolainen for example. Patrik’s own development has taken huge steps forward and it is possible to see with eyeballs. In general way he has been improving but this summer they are focusing on weaknesses like explosive power on leg muscles . Like Rautala said summer 2016 that Patrik’s basic strength level was quite low so they needed two summers to work with those areas and there isn’t ways to short cut. You will see even better #29 when season 2018-2019 begins but if you are not happy just deal him for EDM scrubs.

Expecting solid 1st line winger performance from him 90 % of nights. It is up to Maurice to play him on that spot or then back to 2nd / 3rd line. First line duties may become expensive for Winnipeg as Laine will end up 50G 35 A. Second line time you can decrease 10 points and third line 15 points.

Same time I am so jealous for you guys but happy that Finnish youngster is so great at this game called hockey.

In 2 years time Laines skating hasn't really developed as all, that is a concern. That's the issue we are talking here.


Why is it honestly impossible to consider skating as part of summer training?
Some of you almost make me think we aren't talking about hockey player here.

 

[Tommigun]

Sorry but won’t bother answering to your posts anymore. I have debunked everything that you are claiming here. But as ignorance seems to be bliss for you and skating exercising some kind of a fetish, I don’t see any point in debating with you about this.

No you haven’t! You always avoid the questions and write metric tons of stories that don’t touch the subject. You are a master at avoiding to answer the hard questions and fill out the answers with all kinds of irrelevant stuff. You go on and on about muscle fibers etc but avoid the questions, it’s almost as if you didn’t even read what is being discussed.

 

[Ippenator]

His trainer has allocated time for tennis, badminton and floor ball every week. Don’t you think any of those activities could be substituted for some on-ice training if time really is that much at a premium?

It’s almost as if his trainer vehemently hated ice because he fills their schedule with everything else than hockey related things. But then again his trainer is not a hockey player coach, so he will train his subjects skills that he knows. Hence why Lane should change coach pronto.

What is Rautala’s track record really? He seems to just make Laine worse. Look at last year.

Those are exactly very helpful for the leg explosiveness and stamina in a good and versatile way. They also help keep players better motivated with the most intensive training. Dude you have a lot to learn about the training of NHL players. Kurri, Selänne and Barkov for example have played loads of tennis during their off season training.

Laine worse last year? Bwahahahahhaa!!! 44 goals instead of 36 goals while playing most of the time with pretty much incompatible and not at all ideal linemates on 5 on 5 hockey. Also with clearly less ice time than previous season. Yeah, now I know for sure that you can’t be taken seriously...

 

[Keduzin]

His trainer has allocated time for tennis, badminton and floor ball every week. Don’t you think any of those activities could be substituted for some on-ice training if time really is that much at a premium?

It’s almost as if his trainer vehemently hated ice because he fills their schedule with everything else than hockey related things. But then again his trainer is not a hockey player coach, so he will train his subjects skills that he knows. Hence why Lane should change coach pronto.

What is Rautala’s track record really? He seems to just make Laine worse. Look at last year.

Ok, you really are just trolling or then you have zero knowledge when it comes to practicing.
Hell, they should allocate some PS4 time to icetime as well, and he should eat his meals while skating and spending the quality time with his friends, family and girlfriend on the ice too.

tennis, badmington and floorball are really good ways of practicing for a hockeyplayer as well, coordination, explosiveness and stamina plus you use differentet muscles more in those sports than you do in hockey or skating.

Too much hockey is too much, he will get to spend quite enough time on the ice as well

 

[Tommigun]

Ok, you really are just trolling or then you have zero knowledge when it comes to practicing.
Hell, they should allocate some PS4 time to icetime as well, and he should eat his meals while skating and spending the quality time with his friends, family and girlfriend on the ice too.

tennis, badmington and floorball are really good ways of practicing for a hockeyplayer as well, coordination, explosiveness and stamina plus you use differentet muscles more in those sports than you do in hockey or skating.

Too much hockey is too much, he will get to spend quite enough time on the ice as well

No I didn’t say he should do any of those things. What I said was that he should spend SOME (as opposed to NONE) time on the ice. How you turn that into “there’s such a thing as too much hockey” or him skating while eating I don’t know.

 

[Tommigun]

Those are exactly very helpful for the leg explosiveness and stamina in a good and versatile way. They also help keep players better motivated with the most intensive training. Dude you have a lot to learn about the training of NHL players. Kurri, Selänne and Barkov for example have played loads of tennis during their off season training.

Laine worse last year? Bwahahahahhaa!!! 44 goals instead of 36 goals while playing most of the time with pretty much incompatible and not at all ideal linemates on 5 on 5 hockey. Also with clearly less ice time than previous season. Yeah, now I know for sure that you can’t be taken seriously...

Of course Laine developed as a player as he got older, but he was in a worse shape to start the year than he was the previous year. He even said it himself that it’d take half the season to find his legs.

 

[Tommigun]

What the heck is it with you guys? We are saying he should add SOME on-ice training (like North Americans do), and you are turning it into us wanting him to eat while skating. His training methods are an outlier that don’t seem to produce results. The only ones propagating them are his pure strength coach, the Finnish media (who love the guy because he’s the most known one) and you guys. I’ll borrow a chapter from BB88’s book - how come NA consistently produce elite skaters and Finland doesn’t? (And don’t start with size etc again, Granlund and Ristolainen for example are not huge).

Also it’s tiring how you keep on pretending you are some kinds of experts on the subject and somehow even own the topic, while constantly shitting on people who question his strength trainer’s methods. The large transgression being us asking him to add some skating to his training regime (like NA players have), when skating is his biggest shortcoming.

 

[Ippenator]

Of course Laine developed as a player as he got older, but he was in a worse shape to start the year than he was the previous year. He even said it himself that it’d take half the season to find his legs.

But he was never really in any worse SHAPE and he never said in that way. He just said that he was still being a bit stiff after the hard off season training, and that it was anyway expected already when he started his off season, and that it should get better around the end of the year, as it definitely did.

It’s a gradual process. They are definitely not trying to make him better for a the short gain, but exactly in the way that will carry him the furthest through his whole career. It might mean that you don’t see always immediately the development in some areas that you would hope for. They are practically building his body like you would build a house. You need to first have a really strong basis in the beginning before you can after all start building the rest of the house, if you want to have the best possible end result.

 

[Tommigun]

But he was never really in any worse SHAPE and he never said in that way. He just said that he was still being a bit stiff after the hard off season training, and that it was anyway expected already when he started his off season, and that it should get better around the end of the year, as it definitely did.

It’s a gradual process. They are definitely not trying to make him better for a the short gain, but exactly in the way that will carry him the furthest through his whole career. It might mean that you don’t see always immediately the development in some areas that you would hope for. They are practically building his body like you would build a house. You need to first have a really strong basis in the beginning before you can after all start building the rest of the house, if you want to have the best possible end result.

So Laine has a personalized training program then, in order to build the foundation? I’m pretty sure he just trains in Rautala’s group with the rest. How does that in any way serve as a foundation?

 

[Ippenator]

What the heck is it with you guys? We are saying he should add SOME on-ice training (like North Americans do), and you are turning it into us wanting him to eat while skating. His training methods are an outlier that don’t seem to produce results. The only ones propagating them are his pure strength coach, the Finnish media (who love the guy because he’s the most known one) and you guys. I’ll borrow a chapter from BB88’s book - how come NA consistently produce elite skaters and Finland doesn’t? (And don’t start with size etc again, Granlund and Ristolainen for example are not huge).

Ristolainen is 192 cm, so he for sure is a big player. And Granlund had the similar problems as Laine in the beginning as he clearly had also a smaller amount of fast twitch muscle fibers to start with. He had to exactly do the same as Laine is doing now - three years of concentrating in training explosiveness and stamina to his legs and not doing much of skating exercises while doing the intensive physical training. He added the figure skating when he was more or less done with his much needed physical training. And the figure skating exercises were exactly more to just polish his skating. He got his great improved acceleration and stamina definitely through his physical hard training though.

 

[Ippenator]

So Laine has a personalized training program then, in order to build the foundation? I’m pretty sure he just trains in Rautala’s group with the rest. How does that in any way serve as a foundation?

The foundation is exactly getting the physical aspects improved as efficiently as possible. Rautala’s methods work very well for everyone whom has similar weaknesses as Laine has. Of course they use individual amounts of weights for each player and times for doing each exercises. But the main structure for the training is the same still, as the main reason for training with Rautala is for gaining explosive power and stamina for improved skating. This is exactly why bigger Finnish guys have often chosen Rautala.

Both Rantanen and Ristolainen have achieved very good results with their skating and stamina while training with Rautala. Rantanen is definitely the same class of a skater as Barkov while he is even one inch taller than Barkov. I know that BB88 will always try to put down Rantanen’s skating compared to Barkov’s, but honestly they are very equal as skaters. And if I would need to choose from them whom is after all the better skater, I would choose Rantanen, because he is a bit more powerful skater than Barkov and he definitely has also a bit better top speed. Barkov might have a slight edge with his agility, but the difference is small there too. But anyway Barkov is a bit smaller, so he has anyway a natural edge for being a bit more agile.

 

[BB88]

Ristolainen is a physical beast but not in any way or shape a great skater, Rants is better but he's not Barkov level.
Barkovs turns/accelaration have really improved over the years and he can logg 20+ mins a game without his game dropping.
Barkov is light on his skates, Laine heavy.

It's honestly amazing how against you are skating, how you disagree with NHL teams, but you're the pro here.
Honestly please go let NHL teams know they have no idea what they are doing.

Ok, you really are just trolling or then you have zero knowledge when it comes to practicing.
Hell, they should allocate some PS4 time to icetime as well, and he should eat his meals while skating and spending the quality time with his friends, family and girlfriend on the ice too.

tennis, badmington and floorball are really good ways of practicing for a hockeyplayer as well, coordination, explosiveness and stamina plus you use differentet muscles more in those sports than you do in hockey or skating.

Too much hockey is too much, he will get to spend quite enough time on the ice as well

This again post where things get taken to extremes. Which is the typical HF thing to do.

Again there's nothing wrong with off ice training(please read it), badminton/tennis/floorball can be good additions to training, next to skating& off ice workouts.
But he has time for all tennis/badminton/floorball but not skating, all of those 3 things according to you have to come before skating? Putting his energy on those 3 sports over skating?
How about keeping 1 or 2 of those and skating? For some that idea is damm impossible.

If he comes back to pre season camp and complains on his skating shape I'm going to go crazy.

How can it be too much hockey if he doesn't skate at all.

 

[Ippenator]

Ristolainen is a physical beast but not in any way or shape a great skater, Rants is better but he's not Barkov level.

It's honestly amazing how against you are skating, how you disagree with NHL teams, but you're the pro here.




This again post where things get taken to extremes. Which is the typical HF thing to do.

Those 3 sports can be good supportive activities on offseasons but are they better than playing hockey/skating?
How can it be too much hockey if he doesn't skate at all.

Skating is like bicycle riding, if you have once learnt how to skate well with a good technique, you will not need to practice so much the skating technique itself to become a faster skater. You can be a slow bicycler too, even if you are good with your riding skills, if you just don’t have enough of power in your legs. The same applies to skating.

You will not magically forget how to ride well the bicycle if you have a few months break from riding a bicycle, just like you will not have any magical complete disappearence of your skating skills, if you don’t train by skating in the summer. And as I have many times already said here, Laine does not have problems with his skating technique, but with his lack of explosiveness and stamina. And that is why his training is how it is - not because he, Rautala and the Jets coaches and management would be morons, like some of you seriously seem to think.

 

[BB88]

Skating is like bicycle riding, if you have once learnt how to skate well with s good technique, you will not need to practic so much the skating technique itself to become a faster skater. You can be a slow bicycler too, even if you are good with your riding skills, if you just don’t have enough of power in your legs.

You will not magically forget how to ride well the bicycle if you have a few months break from riding a bicycle, just like you will not have any magical complete disappearence of your skating skills, if you don’t train by skating in the summer. And as I have many times already said here, Laine does not have problems with his skating technique, but with his lack of explosiveness and stamina. And that is why his training is how it is - not because he, Rautala and the Jets coaches and management would be morons, like some of you seriously seem to think.

Hahhahhhahhahh, yeah you're the true pro over NHL team coaches.

Laine came to last pre season camp in a shape where he had to call himself out and took half the season to get going. To the pro master Ippe that's 100% perfect and the goal. The development has been maximized.

Laine isn't one of the best skaters techique wise in the league, not even close. He has ton of room to improve, that's arrogant way of thinking and it's not just about forgetting to skate dammit but to improve as a skater.

 

[Ippenator]

Hahhahhhahhahh, yeah you're the true pro over NHL team coaches.

Laine came to last pre season camp in a shape where he had to call himself out and took half the season to get going. To the pro master Ippe that's 100% perfect and the goal. The development has been maximized.

Laine isn't one of the best skaters techique wise in the league, not even close. He has ton of room to improve, that's arrogant way of thinking and it's not just about forgetting to skate dammit but to improve as a skater.

Illusion working and ignorance is bliss...

 

[Ippenator]

Hahhahhhahhahh, yeah you're the true pro over NHL team coaches.

Laine came to last pre season camp in a shape where he had to call himself out and took half the season to get going. To the pro master Ippe that's 100% perfect and the goal. The development has been maximized.

Laine isn't one of the best skaters techique wise in the league, not even close. He has ton of room to improve, that's arrogant way of thinking and it's not just about forgetting to skate dammit but to improve as a skater.

And btw you are the one here whom seems to think that you know things better than NHL coaches do, as Maurice and the other Jets coaches, as well as their management, have approved with Laine training with Rautala and with his methods. But no, you know better than them of course, as you are after all obviously the real pro.

 

[BB88]

Illusion working and ignorance is bliss...

Your posts are full of arrogancy.

In the way of because according to you Laine is "fine" from tehnique wise he doesn't have to improve it, at all.
The best players in the league try to get better, they work on their strenghts/ they work on their weaknessess, hint skating isn't the strenght for Laine.
But the pro trainer says Laine doesn't have to.

And arrogance in the way of not reading the posts, you make it sound like people want Laine to stop all the off ice training and just skate, where people want to see Laine add skating into the mix.
Impossible to do.

And btw you are the one here whom seems to think that you know things better than NHL coaches do, as Maurice and the other Jets coaches, as well as their management, have approved with Laine training with Rautala and with his methods. But no, you know better than them of course, as you are after all obviously the real pro.

You've called skating pointless, and going against NHL players/teams here.

 

[Ippenator]

Your posts are full of arrogancy.

In the way of because according to you Laine is "fine" from tehnique wise he doesn't have to improve it, at all.
The best players in the league try to get better, they work on their strenghts/ they work on their weaknessess, hint skating isn't the strenght for Laine.
But the pro trainer says Laine doesn't have to.

And arrogance in the way of not reading the posts, you make it sound like people want Laine to stop all the off ice training and just skate, where people want to see Laine add skating into the mix.
Impossible to do.



You've called skating pointless, and going against NHL players/teams here.

I have not gone against any NHL based training itself. I have just stated that I trust perfectly Laine’s, Rautala’s and the Jets coaches and management’s decisions in his case. And it is perfectly logical what they are doing in LAINE’S SITUATION. For some more average sized players with more to be done with polishing their skating technique I would definitely agree with their coaches if they thought that they would need some on ice training at some part of their off season. But not at the same time with any intensive physical training, as that kind of training is not optimal for anyone at the same time with the body mass changing physical training.

Once again, I have not been against any NHL coaches and their methods. But the only ones coaching Laine are the Jets coaches and they don’t seem to be at all against how Laine is training, or do you disagree?

 

[Whileee]

Again, Laine said himself that for a significant stretch at the beginning of the year he felt his legs were heavy and he indicated it affected his performance. He noted that he hadn't skated in the offseason as a reason. I hope he changes his routine so he doesn't come back next season with heavy legs and feeling like he doesn't have quickness on the ice.

 

[BB88]

I have not gone against any NHL based training itself. I have just stated that I trust perfectly Laine’s, Rautala’s and the Jets coaches and management’s decisions in his case. And it is perfectly logical what they are doing in LAINE’S SITUATION. For some more average sized players with more to be done with polishing their skating technique I would definitely agree with their coaches if they thought that they would need some on ice training at some part of their off season. But not at the same time with any intensive physical training, as that kind of training is not optimal for anyone at the same time with the body mass changing physical training.

Once again, I have not been against any NHL coaches and their methods. But the only ones coaching Laine are the Jets coaches and they don’t seem to be at all against how Laine is training, or do you disagree?

Except it's not.

Adding skating into the mix doesn't hurt his workouts at all/make him a worse player.

At worse he's in shape to start the season, or + a better skater. There's no loss there. Laine is a Jets player, a player who's going to get a massive raise soon. Be Mr franchise with the pay check. His job is to help his team as much as he can, and chasing shape for half a season isn't doing that.

 

[Ippenator]

Again, Laine said himself that for a significant stretch at the beginning of the year he felt his legs were heavy and he indicated it affected his performance. He noted that he hadn't skated in the offseason as a reason. I hope he changes his routine so he doesn't come back next season with heavy legs and feeling like he doesn't have quickness on the ice.

Yes, he did say that his legs were feeling heavy after the off season, but the reason he stated was not really because of not skating during the off season, but because of the hard physical training and the changed body and more mass. Getting stronger core and stronger legs doesn’t become without getting some more mass and all this together was the reason that he stated for him feeling stiff with his skating. He already knew that it would happen from the time they were plabning his training, so it was no kind of a surprise.

Still everything is done for the best results in the long run, not just for the start of one season.

 

[Whileee]

Yes, he did say that his legs were feeling heavy after the off season, but the reason he stated was not really because of not skating during the off season, but because of the hard physical training and the changed body other more mass. Getting stronger core and stronger legs doesn’t become without getting some more mass and all this together was the reason that he stated for him feeling stiff with his skating. He already knew that it would happen from the time they were plabning his training, so it was no kind of a surprise.

Still everything is done for the best results in the long run, not just for the start of one season.

So, to summarize, is it your view that training on ice to improve your skating is not helpful, or that you don't know if it is helpful but because Rautala doesn't include it in his program it must not be helpful, or that Laine is already at the peak of technique so training won't improve his skating?