Patrik Laine II: The Roof Still is Still On (for now)

[CBJx614]

If you get a quality center in return yes. Center is a massive hole and I think it's so massive it really disrupts the entire team

Honestly, we have to hope that one of Foudy, Texier, Bemstrom, Stenlund or even someone like Domi or Roslo breaks out in a big way

Which is wishful thinking...

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

If you get a quality center in return yes. Center is a massive hole and I think it's so massive it really disrupts the entire team

Ok. I know that trades just don’t happen the way you want them to. And I’m still figuring a QO is the best path for the team with Laine. But just seeing this line of thinking through.

So if you can get a center, say. 2C or a 3C with upside or a Roslovic/Texier type, plus another good piece - a young winger or a high level prospect or a first round pick - does that make the roster composition better? I know it helps to know exactly who the players are. Would you take three Ros/Tex types for Dubois? In a scenario where you had to trade Dubois?

 

[majormajor]

This goes both ways. He has absolutely no help around him...

The team has no 1/2C. Is it Roslovic? Is it Domi? Jenner? Foligno? None of those guys on a good team is a 1/2. Maybe Roslovic grows into it and if we're lucky Domi might be able to be a 2C, but neither is close to driving play on a consistent basis.

Outside of Roslovic and Bjorkstrand this team has absolutely no firepower. Jones and Werenski are good, but they shouldn't be top 5 in points on the team, especially when they're having a bad year. When the opposing team knows they can key in on Laine and they don't feel threatened that anyone else is a problem this is what's gonna happen.

I am starting to bristle at this formulation. Roslovic, Domi, Bjorkstrand, these are the guys that Torts has been trying with Laine the most in the last 5 or so games. Those guys have all been scoring recently. It's just either with Laine not near the play or more often with Laine on the bench. What we're seeing from him has nothing to do with "not having a 1C" because his level of play is inexcusable for a player on any line.

 

[majormajor]

Ok. I know that trades just don’t happen the way you want them to. And I’m still figuring a QO is the best path for the team with Laine. But just seeing this line of thinking through.

So if you can get a center, say. 2C or a 3C with upside or a Roslovic/Texier type, plus another good piece - a young winger or a high level prospect or a first round pick - does that make the roster composition better? I know it helps to know exactly who the players are. Would you take three Ros/Tex types for Dubois? In a scenario where you had to trade Dubois?

That's a tough question. I'm ignoring the Dubois part because, you know, we already traded him and it's a sunk cost. But would you trade Laine for Texier and a mid-first? I probably would, but maybe I'm more bullish on Tex than you. Two mid-firsts and I'm on the fence.

I really had low expectations for Laine. I didn't think he was that good even in Winnipeg and this is a worse situation for his production. But this level of awfulness is just like how he played in the latter half of 2019. I thought he was a limited player going into this year but I also thought he was going to be more grown up than this.

Hopefully Jarmo has a good read on it. Does he think Laine will take a step in the off-season with training? Training and overall professionalism is where the growth has to begin. The single biggest reason he is a poor 5v5 player is because he is physically weak.

 

[Winland]

Jalonen is giving his insights about Laine. He thinks the combination of high pressure about being "the number one" forward, new playstyle and linemates and Torts trying to make Pate into a two-way forward (which he'll never be) are causing him to think too much... Therefore making him very slow in decisions. His gameplay is not coming from the "spine" and he is probably feeling a little ashamed and lost. He is hoping for more mental coaching from Columbus side.

What I wish for, is more support from fans also. I feel like many fans have turned their backs to Patty.

Why concentrate on making his weaknesses into strenghts when you can embrace the strenghts and improve the weaknesses?

 

[BB88]

He needs an offseason reset in the worst way and skate the entire summer.

He’s too slow to be a 5on5 superstar

 

[gearmex]

Jalonen is giving his insights about Laine. He thinks the combination of high pressure about being "the number one" forward, new playstyle and linemates and Torts trying to make Pate into a two-way forward (which he'll never be) are causing him to think too much... Therefore making him very slow in decisions. His gameplay is not coming from the "spine" and he is probably feeling a little ashamed and lost. He is hoping for more mental coaching from Columbus side.

What I wish for, is more support from fans also. I feel like many fans have turned their backs to Patty.

Why concentrate on making his weaknesses into strenghts when you can embrace the strenghts and improve the weaknesses?

https://www.is.fi/nhl/art-2000007911392.html

Really good article on this.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Jalonen is giving his insights about Laine. He thinks the combination of high pressure about being "the number one" forward, new playstyle and linemates and Torts trying to make Pate into a two-way forward (which he'll never be) are causing him to think too much... Therefore making him very slow in decisions. His gameplay is not coming from the "spine" and he is probably feeling a little ashamed and lost. He is hoping for more mental coaching from Columbus side.

What I wish for, is more support from fans also. I feel like many fans have turned their backs to Patty.

Why concentrate on making his weaknesses into strenghts when you can embrace the strenghts and improve the weaknesses?

Pretty much sums up why so many non grinder types struggle under Torts , leave here , and their offensive potential instantly resurfaces , in a big way . It’s why I’ve said we as fans shouldn’t judge Texier , Bemstrom , Laine, Domi under this coach . People forget , Torts took an emerging Bjorkstrand , turned him into an invisible player for nearly a year and a a half , before he started to play with the skill he once resembled . Go back and look at Bjorkstrands game logs . I feel bad for Laine , can’t hang out with teammates , develop a bond with the guys because of Covid , has a coach that’s killed his spirit focusing on the negative . Hopefully Jalonen is on the next staff .

 

[EspenK]

Ok. I know that trades just don’t happen the way you want them to. And I’m still figuring a QO is the best path for the team with Laine. But just seeing this line of thinking through.

So if you can get a center, say. 2C or a 3C with upside or a Roslovic/Texier type, plus another good piece - a young winger or a high level prospect or a first round pick - does that make the roster composition better? I know it helps to know exactly who the players are. Would you take three Ros/Tex types for Dubois? In a scenario where you had to trade Dubois?

I still think you wait and see what happens next year unless you're sure Torts is coming back. Then I think trading him sooner rather than later makes sense. Not saying its all Torts' fault but he isn't part of the solution imo.

I think the next coach needs to be able to figure out Laine's pysche and work with him to take advantage of his strengths and work to improve his weaknesses in a manner that Laine responds to. Just like people learn differently they respond to motivation differently. A good coach figures this out and act accordingly.

Also having a power play without the likes of Foligno & Jenner might help also.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

That's a tough question. I'm ignoring the Dubois part because, you know, we already traded him and it's a sunk cost. But would you trade Laine for Texier and a mid-first? I probably would, but maybe I'm more bullish on Tex than you. Two mid-firsts and I'm on the fence.

I really had low expectations for Laine. I didn't think he was that good even in Winnipeg and this is a worse situation for his production. But this level of awfulness is just like how he played in the latter half of 2019. I thought he was a limited player going into this year but I also thought he was going to be more grown up than this.

Hopefully Jarmo has a good read on it. Does he think Laine will take a step in the off-season with training? Training and overall professionalism is where the growth has to begin. The single biggest reason he is a poor 5v5 player is because he is physically weak.

I understand what you’re saying about Dubois and sunk cost but that’s part of this line of thinking, that I’d you trade Laine, whatever assets you return can be added to Roslovic and seen as acquired for Dubois. To see the roster movement in totality rather than in isolated bursts.

No, you’re not required to play along, but for me to follow it through I had to ask.

Anyone else have thoughts on Dubois for 3 Ros/Tex types? Or what if one was a Danault type?

Also agree this is a big offseason for Jarmo and Patrik.

 

[KJ Dangler]

I understand what you’re saying about Dubois and sunk cost but that’s part of this line of thinking, that I’d you trade Laine, whatever assets you return can be added to Roslovic and seen as acquired for Dubois. To see the roster movement in totality rather than in isolated bursts.

No, you’re not required to play along, but for me to follow it through I had to ask.

Anyone else have thoughts on Dubois for 3 Ros/Tex types? Or what if one was a Danault type?

Also agree this is a big offseason for Jarmo and Patrik.

Laine is an elite talent , that is 22 yrs old . I’m not even remotely considering trading him unless it’s elite coming back .. Eichel for example . Heavy pass on Danault , we dodged a bullet there.

When Laine was first traded , you felt like nearly any shot he put up could go in . That talent didn’t leave . He will look like a new player under the next coach . Not sure if your a buckeye fan , but do you remember Greg Schianos last yr at OSU ? They had talent galore , and one of the worst defenses in college football . His players had to think so much , all their athletic ability and skill disappeared . Paralysis by analysis..

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Laine is an elite talent , that is 22 yrs old . I’m not even remotely considering trading him unless it’s elite coming back .. Eichel for example . Heavy pass on Danault , we dodged a bullet there.

When Laine was first traded , you felt like nearly any shot he put up could go in . That talent didn’t leave . He will look like a new player under the next coach . Not sure if your a buckeye fan , but do you remember Greg Schianos last yr at OSU ? They had talent galore , and one of the worst defenses in college football . His players had to think so much , all their athletic ability and skill disappeared . Paralysis by analysis..

I follow OSU football as far as wins and losses but that’s about it.

Laine is an elite talent but is he an elite player? That remains to be seen and it makes sense you’d want to give another coach the opportunity to find out.

 

[LoneFunyan]

Anyone else have thoughts on Dubois for 3 Ros/Tex types? Or what if one was a Danault type?

If that was the original trade, I'd be pretty disappointed. I'm not convinced Tex is going to make it, Ros is a good 3rd line player at the moment and Danault is about the same. None of it "fixes" the PLD loss, which is the best case scenario. It seems like a quantity for quality trade.

While I wasn't much higher on the original trade, I could take the optimistic view that Laine is a high-ceiling asset that could turn out to be a 1st line player with very high value. If Laine can turn it around, the loss of PLD is much less significant, at least from a stats and points perspective.

That's why I wouldn't trade Laine until the deadline next year if the plan is to change coaches. Give him time to adjust and work under a new coach who may be able to bring out his best attributes. Really start building that relationship between coach and player from day 1, because Laine is probably the fourth most important player on the team in terms of impact on the future (Jones, Z, Bjork, Laine). If it doesn't work out, he'll be next year's Taylor Hall (will be interesting to see if Hall nets anything at the d/l).

If the plan is to stay with Torts, I move Laine ASAP because I don't think the relationship can be fixed.

I have total respect for Torts and what he's done here and throughout his career, but I think you have to read each player's personal style and understand how they respond to a particular style of criticism. I think the multiple benchings were not the way to reach *this* player.

Does the player react by pushing back to give you a "f*** you, I'll prove you wrong" (seems like Ros may be like this)?
Does the player sink under the weight (which it seems Laine may do) of it?

I think the player group of a few years ago was bonded enough that they could help someone out who did get that treatment so Torts could be bad cop and the other players could be good cop. It was a workable dynamic. Plus, there were just better players at that time, so individual mistakes weren't magnified. This team right now doesn't have that luxury - every mistake ends up as an odd-man rush or goal, and Torts is still playing the bad cop, but the good cop side is gone.

People respond to criticism in different ways and I think Torts misplayed his managerial style on Laine and he's just drowning in negativity now.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I have more optimism about Ros and Tex than you but I see where you’re coming from and maybe shouldn’t have tied the discussion directly to their names. I can see though how it could be seen as disappointing return for PLD and I was trying to think of a known commodity at center to help out the roster.

Which is really the point of the thought progression, to see if you can fix the roster by trading Laine. And then you could consider you came out of the PLD mess stronger.

anwyay...

 

[EspenK]

I have more optimism about Ros and Tex than you but I see where you’re coming from and maybe shouldn’t have tied the discussion directly to their names. I can see though how it could be seen as disappointing return for PLD and I was trying to think of a known commodity at center to help out the roster.

Which is really the point of the thought progression, to see if you can fix the roster by trading Laine. And then you could consider you came out of the PLD mess stronger.

anwyay...

I think if you got a solid LW or a proven young 2c (or both) plus a good pick and/or a prospect your point is a good one.

 

[VT]

I know Jukka Jalonen from KHL. He`s an excelent coach but he was in SKA St. Peterburg and Jokerit Helsinky. Play of SKA was very interesting but the roster was... simply SKA bought everything that went wrong, there was no concept, no plan, nothing in this time (Jalonen had nothing to do with it). That was the reason why Dynamo Moscow twice defeated SKA in PO . Dynamo had conception, the roster was made under the coach Oleg Znarok. Only when Bykov with Zakharkin came to SKA the conception was changed. But, inspite of Jalonen they they determined who would be in the lineup. SKA bought better players, Kovalchuk played the whole season and Panarin was older.

And still one serious thing... SKA is a very specific team.

Jukka knows to work with players. So IMHO he would be ideal as assistent (I don`t know if a head coach too). I would like to see here.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I think if you got a solid LW or a proven young 2c (or both) plus a good pick and/or a prospect your point is a good one.

That’s where I was heading. I shouldn’t have attached names to it.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Laine is an elite talent but is he an elite player? That remains to be seen and it makes sense you’d want to give another coach the opportunity to find out.

He has an elite shot but is definitely not an elite player. An elite player doesn't fall off of a cliff in his performance at his age even if he doesn't like the coach or is facing the adversities of an odd season.

He will almost necessarily play better under a different coach, but he's been exposed. He wouldn't fit my criterion for allocating the resources it will take to sign him long term.

He's a power play specialist with an elite shot. And that's not worth a big money long term commitment. I'd give his long term deal a much bigger chance of working out like Jeff Skinner's has than I would the 14 year deal that Ovechkin signed that expires this season.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Laine is an elite talent , that is 22 yrs old . I’m not even remotely considering trading him unless it’s elite coming back .. Eichel for example . Heavy pass on Danault , we dodged a bullet there.

When Laine was first traded , you felt like nearly any shot he put up could go in . That talent didn’t leave . He will look like a new player under the next coach . Not sure if your a buckeye fan , but do you remember Greg Schianos last yr at OSU ? They had talent galore , and one of the worst defenses in college football . His players had to think so much , all their athletic ability and skill disappeared . Paralysis by analysis..

He has an elite shot but is definitely not an elite player. An elite player doesn't fall off of a cliff in his performance at his age even if he doesn't like the coach or is facing the adversities of an odd season.

He will almost necessarily play better under a different coach, but he's been exposed. He wouldn't fit my criterion for allocating the resources it will take to sign him long term.

He's a power play specialist with an elite shot. And that's not worth a big money long term commitment. I'd give his long term deal a much bigger chance of working out like Jeff Skinner's has than I would the 14 year deal that Ovechkin signed that expires this season.

Could be the reason behind the work Torts has attempted with Laine. Maybe Jarmo and he both figured they had to know what kind of asset, what kind of player, Laine is and could be. If that’s the case, the question remains if Jarmo feels like he has an answer.

 

[Monstershockey]

Torts and Jarmo are trying to expand Laine's game to make him a better player. Seeing him crumble like he is makes me wonder if he will be able to be more than what he already is. I hope he can, for Columbus' sake, but so far, it isn't looking promising.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

There is a whole cloud of negativity around Laine and the team right now, so I'm going to try to be nice. I'm going to give Laine all the benefits of the doubt there is (for like 30 seconds when I write this post).

1. Most importantly, COVID had made everything worse and everything harder. The quarantining, the lack of opportunities for Laine to hang out with the guys on the road and build relationships with the guys and coaches, and limited opportunities to work on your game outside of practice time (which is even rarer this year) is not something to take lightly. Yes, its a toll every player has. But some maybe have reacted to it better than others.

2.. Its hard to change teams in general. But when you factor in quarantining for two weeks, playing with zero practice time and only knowing the system via Skype/Zoom isn't something that brings great success.

3. The team is trying to tune his game to make him more two way. This can cause him to over think and trust his instincts less. I don't think he's scoring due to lack of effort, and I think for the most part the effort has been good. I think he's trying to do the system the best he can. That's good because it shows buy in, even if he doesn't agree or fit well with buying in.

4. In order to re-tune his game to be the power guy that we want/expect him to be, he might need to do a different training routine in the summer. A full summer with knowledge and awareness of the expectations for him could do him some good rather than it just being dropped on him. For the most part I think Winnipeg just let Laine be Laine. And that isn't going to work out here. We have to let Laine grow into the player he was supposed to be, not what he's settled in as.

 

[MAHJ71]

4. In order to re-tune his game to be the power guy that we want/expect him to be, he might need to do a different training routine in the summer. A full summer with knowledge and awareness of the expectations for him could do him some good rather than it just being dropped on him. For the most part I think Winnipeg just let Laine be Laine. And that isn't going to work out here. We have to let Laine grow into the player he was supposed to be, not what he's settled in as.

Whatever his usual summer routine is, he needs to do something 100% different. Thats for sure...

Call me crazy but I think there is absolutely no reason he can't actually skate with purpose, use his body, create space for himself, and utilize his shot like.... Ovechkin. Ovechkin is 2 inches shorter, but 28 pounds heavier according to the listed stats.

He may never be the player Ovechkin is... but it wouldn't hurt to train and try.

 

[gearmex]

Laine trained with Rantanen and Barkov last 3 summers, especially more with Barkov last summer, his training should be right way (Of course i cannot know exact details of his training, just what read from news)

 

[majormajor]

Laine trained with Rantanen and Barkov last 3 summers, especially more with Barkov last summer, his training should be right way (Of course i cannot know exact details of his training, just what read from news)

The results aren't there. He's no closer to being a developed athlete than he was five years ago.

Did he train for like 6-8 weeks with those guys? Or was it a few sessions here and a few sessions there?

 

[Bobby Orr's Knees]

Laine needs to be in a perfect situation to succeed. If he could play his game, with someone like Barkov or Panarin, he'd do great. With Columbus, he kind of stepped into a weird situation. It would take a very special player to do well. But aside from the circumstances, Laine and Columbus were never a dream combo.